Sitting With God

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0:44 Denzel Washington, welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you to do the same. Rich Welcome to the show. Hey, thank thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. Hope this conversation will be fruitful for your community. Well, I hope so. And what I'd love for you to do is kind of share with the audience who you are and what is your journey that brought you to the point where you wrote your book Sitting in with God and what was the motivation behind that, and. Just kind of explain who you are and what your journey is or was sure? Sure?

1:26 My my name is rich Lewis, and I have a site called Silence Teaches dot com. Silence Teachers Silence Teaches. It's Silence teaches dot com. But the site started I guess, I think back in twenty fifteen, and really what precipitated it was. If I go back to twenty thirteen, I was simply pruising Amazon looking for a book to read, and I came across in it was about the fourth quarter of twenty thirteen, a book called Healing the Divide, Recovering Christianity's Mystic Roots. The author's name was Amos Smith. So I began reading the kidnap version of the book and he in his book, he talked about a practice called centering prayer that he had been practicing for I think even fifteen years up up until that point, and immediately intrigued me because at that time I had been looking for some type of meditation, silent meditative practice because I had heard that sitting in silence is powerful. I just didn't know how to do it, and so prior to that, I was just sitting in silence, and it was brutally difficult just to sit in silence because it could seem like an eternity. But as I read his book, he highlighted a practice that he had been doing called centering prayer, and so I began trying that for myself, and it made it easier for me to practice in the silence. And then I actually reached out to him via his website and started asking him questions about centering prayer and asking him questions about the book. We began a kind of a friendly back and forth dialogue. We

2:58 became friends, and to this day, about once a month we actually have phone We have a zoom or face or phone calls with each other just to chat. And he's the one that I began working with him off of his website initially, and then he challenged me to write a book, and then he served as a nice mentor on my first book that I published. So it kind of it's interesting how it all fell together, because all I was doing was looking for a book to read on Amazon and then and that was it, and lo and behold, I discovered this book. I discovered this wonderful practice. I discovered a friend and a mentor who and who encouraged me to write a book. And from there many things have happened. You know, I've published a book, I'm working on my second book, I have a website, my own website. I do some one on one coaching and speaking. And it all started because of I was looking for a book to read on Amazon and just trusted maybe I should reach out to this gentleman. And a lot of things have happened since, but it wasn't what I was initially looking for, So I'll stop there.

4:03 Okay, Well, and I'm curious because, as you say, you. Were wanting to read a book, but you were talking about how you've been meditating, and I'm assuming you were doing the breath silent meditation because I've heard you know a lot about that, but that can be difficult. What brought you about to the point of wanting to meditate and doing that? What was the purpose of your meditations? Sure, I would say I was looking to deepen my relationship with God. I felt like maybe I was just on the surface. There was no depth to my relationship with God. There was no depth to my prayer life. It was kind of lacking and boring, and I thought there has to be more to this. I'm missing something, but I didn't know. I didn't know what it was.

4:48 So I think I was exploring how can I deepen my relationship with God? And are there different ways to pray that I don't know how to pray and that I'm aware of that I can explore and begin trying. So I would say it was it was definitely definitely that. Okay, And so I would assume that you have a Christian background, Yes, yes, okay, yes, all right. And so let's talk to the people who may not be Christians, who may consider that there's a higher power or you know, so many people now talk about that divinity. Within and so forth? Is that?

5:31 And I totally respect where you're coming from, So we can move in that direction. But is it okay that as we talk about that for those people that don't have that basic foundation behind them, that this can be applicable also to them as they seek to just really find inner peace and seek to gain that type of inspiration that they've always longed to have. No, I completely agree, I mean, and I actually even like the term higher power of it. I think we can God is just a people use, but you can refer to God as the higher power, the universe, inner wisdom. So yes, I actually I love referring to it as higher power or infinite within me or infinite wisdom. And also centering prayer. Really, I believe anybody can practice centering prayer.

6:20 So it's not just if you're a Christian you practice centering prayer. Anybody can try and we can talk about how you do it, but anyone can can practice centering prayer and see what happens when they do well. And I think that for me, the important thing is and by the way I happen as I meditate, I tend to have that prayer also. But what I find is is people are meditating, they're really seeking inspiration, they're seeking guidance. They're seeking to understand number one, who they are. Number two to find that sense of peace. You know, I just got back from Thailand and I spent a number of months over there, and I found Buddha is a very fascinating and you know, to watch those people as they meditate and as they're seeking to and they really, you know, it's interesting they kind of do worship Buddha.

7:15 But if you really read the articles now they really don't, but they honor him because of what he has taught and how they have put those teachings into their lives to become better people. Now, as we talk about if we get into the Christianity part of it, we're kind of talking about the same thing. But I think everybody's that's meditating is seeking to really understand themselves better, to find greater sense of peace and joy in their lives. And it sounds like you've got a methodology that you have found to be very successful for you and for others. Yes, yes, and that would be yes. The centering prayer works for me, and we can talk about how you do it, and I agree with you. I encourage people to find the practice that works best for them, and it might not be centering prayer. There's a lot as you as you probably already know, there are a lot of different ways to we'll call it meditate, centering prayer, Christian meditation, you know, breath any transcidental meditation, which I'm not familiar with. But there's there's a lot of different ways to meditate. So I encourage people to try or find a practice that works best for them as well.

8:31 Okay, So let's talk about centering prayer. How is it that you do it, and what is the overall outcome and why is it that you had such great experiences about it that you've actually written a book about it. Sure, So centering prayer, well, I'll give a brief history is it's been around for about fifty years. Was actually created in the early nineteen seventies by three Trappist monks. Catholic priests created centering prayer. They saw in the secular community that there was transcendental meditation and other forms of meditation, and they wanted something for the Christian community as well, and so centering prayer was really created in the early nineteen seventies by Thomas Keating Lee manager in Basil Pennington.

9:21 So just to give you that framework that it's about a fifty year practice, but obviously the idea of practicing silence has been around for thousands and thousands of years. A fifty it's not a fifty year practice, it's a couple thousand year if not more practice. And then centering prayer itself, how you do it? And then I'll share fruits of the practice that I've noticed for me, and I think everybody will have their own fruits of a practice, just like you. I think you mentioned you meditate, and you probably have your own fruits you've discovered as you continue your practice. So centering prayer is considered two things.

10:02 It's considered meditation and it's also considered developing UH and deepening your relationship with God. So how we do centering prayers We sit comfortably, or if you can't sit and have to lie down, that's that's fine too. Actually I do most of my centering prayer on my back and I'm not falling, and I'm not falling asleep. If I fall asleep, then I know, Okay, Well then maybe I shouldn't be practicing centering prayer now maybe I really need a nap. But you sit comfortably or lie comfortably with your eyes closed. And then to begin our practice interiorly, we introduce what we call a sacred word, so it could use. It's usually one, two or three syllables. It could be an ocean or a color, or Jesus or God or inner wisdom or trust. And that signifies we're opening to the presence and actions of God within and and and then while we're sitting there in silence as whenever we engage a thought, and what I mean by that is we think about what we're going to do later on in the day, What errands do I have to do? What things do I projects? Do I want to do? We realize we're no longer sitting with God in the present moment. We're sitting with ourselves and our thoughts that are planning and plotting. You reintroduce that word to let go of your engaged thoughts, and then you let go of that sacred word as well. So you just kind of use the word when needed to let go of your chatter that you have, and you'd keep doing that when needed. During the time of your prayer,

11:33 sit whether it's five minutes or ten minutes or twenty minutes. And then at the end of the prayer time usually have some type of time or set and then you might sit for another minute or two and then kind of open your eyes and reacclimate yourself and get on with your day if it's in the morning, or get on with your day if it's in the afternoon. But that's really how you do the practice is you use the sacred Word to bring you back to the present moment, but then you let go of it as well. You're not using it as a mantra. There are mantra practices where interiorly you're saying a word over and over and over again during your time, but in centering prayer, just using it when needed when you engage your thoughts.

12:14 If that makes sense well, and is part of centering prayer? Are you actually praying for certain you know? I mean when we talk about prayer, the word prayer, I think most people think, well, I'm going to pray, you know, for this blessing or for that blessing, or express my gratitude and so on and so forth. Meditation is not necessarily prayer. And yet what you're getting involved in that centering prayer is it a prayer like people think about, or is it more of centering yourself and seeking to tap into that higher power that's not only within you but without.

12:57 Which is the latter exactly what you're saying, So you're not verbally praying to God. You're kind of letting go of yourself and opening to God. I think of it as a reverse prayer because if as I said earlier, we think of centering prayers meditation and a relationship, and we're opening to the actions of God within. So during this time, we're letting God pray in us at a deeper level what God knows we need even for that day, whether it's inner peace or calm or a nudge to do something. So it's not a time where we are verbally praying and petitioning God or asking God for anything. It's where we're opening to God and letting God act in us, if that makes sense. So it's just a different way of praying, and by all means you don't stop your other forms of prayer, and I pray verbally to God as well, but during this time of prayer, it's me being quiet and sitting with God and trusting that God will act in me while I'm sitting there.

13:58 So do you find that you have thought that come up that you would consider inspiration or whatever you would like to call it, that is actually coming from that higher self or from God inspiring you in certain ways? I would say yes, But during the practice, we'll like we let go of them because we trust that outside of the practice they'll come up. So what I often like to do is outside of center and prayer, I journal, and that's where I'm journaling. What do I think God wants me to do and and I and I think of it as so during my silent sit, God's praying in me, and if and if what is being prayed in me is important enough outside of my sit, that's when I'll remember it and I'll journal it. So during my silent sit, I'm simply letting go of any thought that comes up, not clinging to it, not even I'm not even stopping my prayer and writing on a notebook what I've what I've something that comes up. I'm completely trying to let go, let go, let go. Outside of centering prayer, I do journaling and I'll because I trust my inner wisdom and inner guidance that if it's something really important, it's going to be there and I can jot it down.

15:12 Interesting, So do you find as you work with people, and most people you work with, is that people that are just struggling in their lives and trying to figure out what their purpose is or how they need to move forward in their lives, or what they really want to be. What's what's the thought on that? I guess what I've noticed that I have kind of three different groups of people that have come to me for coaching. One is a beginner and they love the idea of centering prayer. They just want someone to help them get started and help them make it a regular practice for them. So that the first type is just a beginner, and then I'll trust themselves to start and continue the practice. So I kind of introduce them to it, get them on a reag their schedule, so to speak, and then just explore, you know, how is the practice, how are you doing? How how how is it changing you?

16:08 Or how's God changing you? Really it's not the practice itself. The second type of person is maybe they've they've been practicing centering prayer for quite a while, but they feel that there's a still they're missing something, they're still scratching the surface. Maybe they really haven't discovered, you know, who is their true self and what action should they be taken and what is what is their purpose? So we'll discuss, We'll try to deepen their practice and explore, you know, what are the next steps, what are things that you really want to do? What is what inner wisdom are you receiving and you want to take action on? And then the third type of person or clergy and pastors and priests have come to me to say, I spend so much time taking care of my community and my congregation or my church, and I'm not taking care of myself.

16:56 I know this practice could help me, and I probably need to do whatever. I'm going to burn out. And I've coached a few pee pastors and priests on that front where they know this is going to be valuable for them, Otherwise they're going to burn out and be of no use or not be as valuable as they could be to the people they serve. Well. And as you talk about your book and sitting with God right journey to your true self through centering prayer, what is the outcome that you observe not only for yourself, but what's the outcome as you've coached different people that you've observed that they have experienced. I guess everybody experiences different fruits of a practice of centering prayer. So for me, as I think about myself before centering prayer, so this is pre twenty late twenty thirteen, and then post centering prayer, know it's given me one huge boost in confidence. So I'm a much more confident person.

17:58 I'm much more I was depressed, but I'm more excited to live life and see what's going to happen today and what neat things will I experience and do today, or how can I help people today? So boost of confidence, boosts, boost of energy, boost of excitement. It's pushed me to do things that scared the heck out of me that were and or we're never on the radar screen because having a website, coaching, writing a book, speaking, doing all those types of things, going on podcasts weren't even on the radar and quite frankly would have scared the heck out of me and don't now. So it's nudged me to get out of my comfort zone try and do new things as well. So those are a lot of some of the fruits that I've experienced. And I think also just maybe I'm I'm still work in progress. I'm a better listener. I'm better at just being with people and giving people the space that they deserve and not rendering it an opinion or comment and just letting people talk and not much what they have to say. So I think I'm better at that, but I'm still work in progress on that front. And I say the same thing with different people that either read the book or that I've coached where they're discovering, you know, like I have.

19:14 I have one coaching client and he's he's a getting ready to retire from being a pediatrician, and we're spending a lot of time talking about what's next, What does God want me to do? What do I want to do and in retirement? And what are some next things I can do as I phase out of being a pediatrician and move into retirement and what does that mean? And how can I serve and help people? And particularly how can I serve and help other pediatricians and and share things that I've learned that can help them, so that that kind of so a lot of the same fruits I have as well as people just thinking about who is my true self? Who is my next true self?

19:57 Because it's always evolving and growing and change. Well, and as you. Talk about that, and what comes to my mind is, you know, it's fascinating that in many instances, people want. A different life. You know, they look at what they're experiencing and going, you know what, this is not what I want. And you know, I was watching a movie the other day and I can only imagine as the name of the movie, and it's about that song I'm sure you've heard it where he talks about imagining the good things in his life, imagining good things after his life, and so forth.

20:37 And I wonder how many people really. Imagine what they would want to experience in their life and actually have that new life, and yet have not been able to figure out how to do it now? I would agree, including myself, because we get into kind of automatic mode, get up and do our routines, and what we really need to do is pause and think what do I really want? So I try to do that, and I probably should do it more often, but I try to write down what do I really want? Or sit with my wife what do we really want to do? Is there something that we really want to do? And we make sure we do it? But no, I agree. I think most people, including myself, we get up and we go on automatic and we don't stop and think what do I really want and maybe write down those one, two or three things and actually start moving in that direction rather than not thinking about it or even putting it down on paper, but still not doing it well.

21:37 And as you think about that, you know, what do I really want? How many people you know, would be able to do that. But does the centering prayer. I mean, I think about thementation, but does a centering prayer help you or help those to be able to start to discover because we are so affected by society, we're so affected by our subconscious mind, which is really controlling our lives for the most part, unless we've really learned mind control and consciousness and that type of thing. So is this something that as you find people do this that whether it comes in the course of their centering prayer or as you say afterwards, as you're starting to write down and keep a journal, that all of a sudden, the genuinellness of the message comes through of here's who you really need to be, or here's who you really are, and here's who you really can become.

22:40 Yeah, I would say for me it's been very vital to the process, and I would say probably for others. So that like when I mentioned we let go of our engaged thoughts and continuously come to the present moment, then we can you tend to take that same process with you outside of centering prayer and let go of things that really aren't required of you in the present moment. So you can hone in and focus on the important tasks that are happen. So I guess it helps you focus, let go of what you don't need to focus on, and hone in on what you do need to focus on. And the other thing centering prayer does. It does if you do it and you become a long term practitioner where you're doing it daily, weekly, monthly, and then years have passed, it does a couple things. One, you know you're letting go of thoughts you tell yourself. Two, you're letting go of repressed emotions that sometimes you didn't even know you have. And then three, you're letting go of stress in your body because I think it just naturally happens during meditating, when any type of meditative practice, you're releasing tension in your body wherever you hold it, whether it's in your forehead or your shoulders or your stomach.

23:51 So meditation is freeing. You're letting go of repressed thoughts, thoughts you knew you had, and in your body, and then opening up to who you really are and you're in. Some of the emotions include letting go of lack of confidence and fear to try and do things and things you tell yourself that aren't true. You're kind of letting go of all of that, and then what's left is who you really are, and and some of the actions you really want to do begin emerging and coming to you or keep coming to you, and then it's up to you to start taking action on them. Did that make sense. Well to some degree.

24:32 I'm going to investigate that a little bit further. So as you talk about letting go, I mean, it's you know, I've experienced this where you know, I'm meditating and these thoughts come up that are obviously subconscious, perhaps disparaging thoughts, you know, not positive thoughts. It's one thing to have them come up, it's another thing to figure out how do you let them go. So, as you've experienced this, and I'm sure as those thoughts have come up for you that are not worth really having as a part of your life, how do you let go? What is the process of literally letting go of those thoughts so that they're no longer necessarily affecting your life.

25:13 I mean, some of them you can actually let go of them, but others maybe maybe it's harder for you to and you keep holding on to them. So then maybe outside of your practice, maybe you do need your journal and say what why am I having this thought? What is its root cause? And and maybe you need to dive a little bit deeper into well why do I really feel that way? So some thoughts just come up and you can kind of let go of them, but other thoughts, maybe the recurring ones that keep coming up, maybe then it's time to do a little bit of journaling where you're you're thinking more about why does this thought keep coming up, what does it really mean? What can I connect it to? Maybe I had a particular event in my life and that makes me think that and I need to kind of reframe that event so that I can kind of eliminate that thought and and and reframe the event and make it more positive instead of such a negative event in my life.

26:11 Well, and as you talked about reframing, now we're talking about NLP, you know, neuro linguistic programming where you go back and identify and then reframe. So do you do that with your clients where you help them to really go back and identify some of those causal leafs that are actually causing them to have the life they're experiencing that they don't want. I have not, but perhaps I should begin incorporating some some of that into it. I have not, but some of my clients will kind of rehash their their past and realize this is why they felt that way, and then on their on their own, they've realized, I don't need to think that way anymore. That's that was the way I thought then, and I don't need to feel that way anymore. And it's okay that I've moved you know, It's still part of who I was, but now I've sort of emerged from it and moved forward and realized it's okay that I'm not thinking that way anymore.

27:10 So in your book, you talk about centering prayer, but you also talk about contemplative prayer. Can you can you explain what the difference of that is and what's the value of the contemplative prayer and how do we proceed with that? Sure, So, centering prayer you can think of as the practice that opens us up to contemplative prayer. So centering prayer really is just a practice such as Christian meditation or transcendental meditation or Buddhist practices. So those are the practices that we perform contemplative prayer is where you're maybe think of it as either in pure awareness, where you're so your goal during meditation or I guess it probably depends upon the meditative practice, but at least in centering prayer, our goal is just to open to the presence and actions of God within which we then think of as the pure presence of God, and that would be contemplate prayer.

28:06 So centering prayers the practice that is opening us to just being with God or being in contemplate prayer, which obviously is very difficult just to be in pure awareness because our minds all of a sudden start thinking things. So maybe you go a couple seconds and you haven't had any thoughts, but then you begin thinking again. So centering prayer is the practice or tool that opens us up to pure awareness, to just God and just being with God, which I think of his contemplative prayer. We use the word, you know, I think contemplate. All right, so I'm going to sit back and contemplate what this is about.

28:47 And that's what you're. Talking about, complaintive chair but prayer. But what are you contemplating about? Well, when you talk about compladative chair prayer, what are you contemplating about or it almost seems like, you know, if I'm going to go into that state and contemplate. What am I contemplating about? Or am I just sitting there waiting for inspiration and thoughts to come into my soul? You're not, at least in centering prayer, we're not contemplating. So we're letting go and opening to the pure presence of God and just continuously letting go of our thoughts.

29:28 So at least in centering prayer, we're not contemplating anything. We're trying to just let go of our thoughts and just be in the present moment and trust that God is acting within us at a deeper level beyond our thoughts and emotions. And then that's where I mentioned kind of outside of centering prayer, for me, at least, I'll do some journaling where I can kind of reflect on what has been acted on me at a deeper level beyond thoughts, emotions and in a way kind of implanted in me, but for to come out later, not necessarily for me to be thinking about door my sit If that makes sense, and it.

30:12 Does I think for many people, you know, I mean, how many times do we pray, you know, are we praying and asking for certain blessings or expressing our gratitude, but particularly asking for certain blessings, and then we sit back and it's like it's not coming. And then maybe down the road a week, two weeks, a month, a year, all of a sudden right that comes into our lives and it's like, oh, okay, maybe the timing wasn't right, but the prayer was right and the desire was right. It's just that in God's time that wasn't the time, and now it is right.

30:54 Or sometimes we're asking for one thing and it doesn't happen, but something else happens. You can look back and say, actually, that was better and that was but at the time it wasn't better. You wanted something different. But as you move forward in life, you can reflect back that you know what, that actually was better than what I was wanting or asking for at the time. So sometimes, yes, sometimes things we want happen in their own timing, and sometimes they don't happen, but something else happens that we realized was even better, much better for. Us well, And you know, and that's interesting. I mean I've experienced that, so you know, you pray for something that doesn't happen. And oftentimes when people are doing that, whether it's through centering prayer and then afterwards other prayers, and they get upset, They get upset with God, they get upset with that higher power, and you know, it's like, well, they're not answering my prayers. He's not answering my prayers. And yet, as you say, if you look at what's going on and really observe, maybe there's something else that's happening that as you look at it is actually something of greater value at that given moment of time than what you were asking for.

32:08 Right, No, exactly, I think, And that's kind of what I've tried to do. You know, As I mentioned, my website in twenty fifteen started off just as a weekly post, and I just trusted that's just start there and see what happens, and just trust whatever inter nudges I get, or trust what emails or interactions I have, and I just. Let it evolve. And it evolved into I'm going to add a coaching page and see what happens, and lo and behold, someone reached out to me. Then I thought, oh, I've never coached before. Now I need to call this guy and figure out what does that? What does that look like? And then and that was, you know, about five or six years ago. And then.

32:48 I thought, well, I'll just add and invite me to speak page and then lo and behold, people the book would you know? Came out and people would ask me, could you come talk? Most of it was what came out in the middle COVID, So everything I did was on zoom. But a church might reach out to me and say, could you speak? We have an adult faith group and we'd love you to talk about centering prayer. They and they would send me a zoom b link. So just the fact that I had a book and the fact that I had to invite me to speak page people would reach out to me. So I was just kind of letting things kind of naturally happen. And then you know, I went on podcasts and you're one of one hundred and twenty or so podcasts I've been on since the book was published, and different things evolved from that. I meet some neat and interesting people. I met gentlemen when the book. I've just realized we've been doing.

33:41 We do a free monthly gathering Brian Russell and I. I went on his podcast about I think it was twenty twenty one, and I met him through pod match where I met you, and then we've become friends and we do kind of a free monthly gathering to bring people together to give a talk and then to do a centering prayer sit and then to spend some time talking and answering questions or letting people just share about their practice or share whatever they want to during this one hour zoom call we have. So I just kind of let things evolve and trust what I'll be doing will come to me rather than try to force it so much.

34:22 Well, and you know, we all kind of love to see these dramatic outcomes, and yet in many cases it's just a very gradual growth. But as you've had those meetings, as you've done that what you're doing, do you have any stories, any dramatic outcomes for someone who has experienced as centering prayer, who maybe you've coached, or as you've listened to other stories where they've shared a dramatic outcome of house literally changed their lives. Some of them are are, I guess some of particularly for some alcoholics, centering prayer has been a tremendous practice for alcoholics. And I've heard that share it over and over again in a couple of areas. One in this monthly gathering that I do with Brian Russell, there was a particular person on there that had said, you know, centering prayer really saved them from themselves and gave them a focus and love for themselves and a love for God so that they could, you know, stop drinking. And I heard the same thing when I when my book came out, I did a weekly Zoom book study and invited anybody to come to it, and and each week I just went through a chapter of the book. And then what ended up happening is I ended up every week.

35:38 It was kind of neat. There was a group of alcoholic group in New York a chapter in New York, and the whole chapter came to the sessions and they and they also shared how, you know, this type of practice saved them from themselves and from from you know, the harm they did on themselves and the harm they did on friends and family because of their drinking, and it stopped them from drinking. It gave them a love for themselves, a love for God, and it gave them their life back, so that those were Yeah, it's powerful, They're obviously very powerful on that front. Well, then that's fantastic. So as we close, what would be the message that you would like to share with the audience to make a difference in their lives.

36:24 I would, I guess I would encourage people, if the idea of sitting in silence and some type of meditative practice is new, just to take baby steps. So one make it, commit to trying it for thirty days, make it the first thing you do in the morning before you do anything else, and maybe just do it for one to five minutes, and just see what happens after thirty days and see how it's changed you and if it's a practice you want to continue or not. But I would just encourage them to take a daily dose of silence, make it the first thing you do in the morning, and just do it for as short as one defy minutes for thirty days, and then reevaluate at the end of the thirty day period. Do I want to continue this? What is there something about it that is attracting to me and helping me wonderful?

37:11 And how do people find your book? Sure the best place to find me is at silenceteaches dot com. If they come to my website, I have a free ebook on Center and Prayer if they want to learn more about it, and then after that, if they discover they're more interested, my book is also on the website, so Silence Teaches dot com is the best place to find me. Okay, is it on Amazon too? Yes? Yes, the book is on Amazon and most online booksellers. It's in paperback, kidnal and actually in audio at this time as well. Oh, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Well, Rich, thanks so much for being on the show. It's fascinating how each of us experience something in our lives and for you, you've taken that and are now making a difference in other people's lives. So, you know, kudos to you for for taking the time and actually doing the effort to accomplish that.

38:07 Now, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it, and hopefully this will be helpful for your for your community. You bet, Thank you, and folks, thanks for listening. Hope you enjoyed it. Look forward to having your join us again soon. This is the Doctor Doug saying. Now mis day