Digesting What We Carry: Healing Trauma Through Ancient Wisdom

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0:44 Denzel Washington, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you to do the same. Ben, Welcome to the show, and I doctor Doc get to join you today. Hey, I'm excited, you know, as ev over the things that you've been doing and your background. It has just really hit me that, Wow, this is something that we really need to talk about. And there's always a slightly different perspective from different people about how to handle things and so forth, and it looks like You've got an extremely interesting perspective, particularly with the journey you have taken relative to studying all of this. So kind of introduce yourself to the audience who you are.

1:30 Talk a little bit about that journey of going to different countries and studying and so forth. Initially, I was drawn to Native Americans from a very young age, like even age three or four, and the fascination continue to grow into adolescence. And when I was checking out host stacks of books from the university library on these Native tribes and then learning about the traditional Native American doctors and the fourteen and thinking, if I'm ever given the opportunity, this is what I will do with my life. Taking off at seventeen, landing among the Kiawu tribe in southwestern Oklahoma, sitting up all night in pyote meetings where I met my mentor. So I got to apprentice from one of their last surviving traditional doctors, who transmitted portions of his own healing gifts to me.

2:21 In order to earn the right to work with these gifts of healing, you go through what's called the vision quest. It involves fasting alone in the mountains four days and nights without food and water. And then years later I spent seventeen years training with the master from China and Shini Kwan, Blaghwa, Zang, Tai Chi and Chikong, which are internal martial arts rooted in Taoism. And I've spent lots of time in India, Sri Lanka, Sri Lanka where I feel most at home, and other countries too, and I get bored if I just stay with one cultural group. I need that diversity well. And you know, it's so interesting because, as you say, there are so many diverse cultural groups that approach things in a slightly different way. And yet you know, for some people one seems to take effect better, for others.

3:12 A different one. But you went in and you've studied all of these different historical ways in which to handle things. And so now the question, and I want you to tell your story because you had your own struggles growing up, and I know that a lot of times when we're seeking this type of information is because we're trying to deal with issues that we've actually experienced in ourselves. So I'd love for you to share your journey relative to that. Well, there's a lot of physical on emotional abuse, trauma, that I endured growing up, and I was very dissociated, disconnected from my body, and it began to like when I began to work with people on my own, that's when it really started to the drama started to play out.

4:07 Is like that that. Transmission that I received from my mentor as I began working with people, as like pouring hydrogen moeroxide into an infected wound. And I found myself going through this psycle of reenactment, the early life drama playing out and my attempts to form intimate romantic relationships. Initially, I was at a complete loss, not knowing what to do, and so the first thing I did was reach out to a psychotherapist I knew from the community, and which is incredibly valuable. It's an important part of many of our healing journeys. It gave me the cognitive understanding of why I was in the shape. I was such a mess, but the patterns were persisting. I continue to attract the same type of individual. It was evoking many as the same my throat, many of the same distressing emotions. So I had to instinctively I taught myself to dive into the depths of what I was feeling all those at times excruciatingly painful emotions, and I would go so far into it, sometimes for hours on end. I would keep breathing in the depths of what I felt, and then at a certain part, I could feel it breaking open, coming out of my body and waves that pain, and that began to help me to let go of some of those really unhealthy attachments.

5:35 Of course, there's limits to our body and mind's own innate healing intelligence, and being determined to do whatever took to heal, I started exploring. I was just completely open to any therapeutic interventions that helped promise. So I really tested out anything from beyond psychotherapy, working with homeopathic physicians and acupuncture, deep tissue massage, whatever I could find. The deep tissue bodywork helped to unearth more the emotion that was trapped in my body. When I got to work with a few gifted healers that helped to did more to dismantle a lot of these patterns that were so deeply entrench but practice, there's a very few people working on this level at this time in history. Used too, there were many among the Native Americans, but few people continue to follow these traditions, practices, and at thirty one, I was really feeling strongly that I needed to return to the Wichita Mountains. That a lot of these really gifted Native American traditional doctors, native healers. They developed the gifts they possessed that would enable them to help other people by going through the vision quest. And so when I went, I mean it was just I wasn't wealthy prepared.

7:01 The first time I went back. You know, the weather is just so extreme in Oklahoma. It could be seventy degrees and I could flip over and drop fifty degrees, and so I'm like freezing on top of the mountain. But I made it through. But I could feel this presence working within my body, and it was parts of it are even like in your death experience. I would be reliving even trauma's going back to early childhood, someone which had completely forgotten about. And yet all the memory, all the emotion, all the vivid sensory impressions, everything's flooding back into my awareness. And I could feel myself like literally digesting it all and gradually as I kept going, which I've been going back like clockwork, spring and fall since nineteen ninety three, I could feel more that being digested to transform. It was building a stronger, healthier foundation. I was becoming more resilient.

7:55 And so from that too, it enables me to assist other people with the wide range of whatever they're dealing with. Because he asked health issues on emotional go ahead. So let me ask you a question because you know and you're not getting into specific, so that's fine. But as you are as these traumas. Are coming up that have been sitting subconsciously for years, you know how much of that was and not getting into specific, how much of that was actual actual trauma that was obvious versus perception trauma. Where as a child, someone may say something with positive intent and because you're a child and other situations, maybe you interpreted it in a more traumatic way. So for you, what was it?

8:49 Was it more actual trauma or was it more perception trauma or was it a combination of both. Well, when you have experiences like a stepfather coming around the south the house with the bo your knife and not knowing if that's the end of your life right there, that's okay, more than percession enough answered, enough answered? You know, when a parent saying to the minister in front of you. Sometimes I feel like taking out a gun and shooting him. That's pretty yeah, yeah, you know, And I think that's important for the audience to understand that we're talking about actual trauma here. And there's so many people who have experienced physical.

9:30 Trauma, mental trauma, all. The other types of traumas that occur, particularly you know, for both men and women, that mainly for women. And I want the audience to understand that, you know, as we're talking here, there's that specific focus at this point in time is helping people who have really experienced that deep trauma. And why you know, you you commented on the fact that you kept repeating these decisions that you would make, repeating getting the same results all the time. Why have you. Found people keep repeating these patterns in their lives. What happens is we internalize these lift experiences, abandonment, rejection, harsh criticism, We internalize the physical, emotional, sexual abuse, all these things. And it may not be and often isn't exactly the same experience. But when we internalize a lot of these traumatic abuse of experiences, and we're holding that pain inside our bodies. And on one hand, from what I hear the subconscious mind. There's this repetition compulsion that we tend to attract the same kinds of individuals and experiences as if part of our psyche is trying to find a resolution. There's also there's a way in which we magnetize certain people in situations and we just gravitate.

11:03 I feel sometimes from people occasionally just what they're holding in their bodies. Because I've done so much intensive practice, the system of meditation practices I've developed the chigong, going through the vision quest, I've become more and more empathic, and I feel into people's bodies what they're holding mentally, emotionally, the traumatic lift experiences they've endured in their lives. And sometimes I can feel where someone's putting out a certain lack of a better term, vibe or signal, and I see how it precipitates the certain behaviors out of another person, like certain abusive or disrespectful or hurtful kinds of behaviors, and I would feel that coming out, and sometimes there might even be a sort of provoking sort of behavior on the part of that individual. And yet I'm just like setting back, like, no, I don't want to feed into that I want to encourage the person, this individual to become more aware, become more conscious when I can work with people individually who carry this trauma, this emotional wounding, and the work helps them to digest what they're carrying that's neutralized. They're digesting the lived experiences and the emotions, and they come out the other side. They're lighter, and I'll see their experience change in terms of they're letting go of really toxic, unhealthy individuals and attachments, relationships, and

12:36 the quality of the relationships improves, and they either again let go of that unhealthy person relationship or that relationship evolves, or they find themselves forming bonds with individuals who are truly capable of reciprocal love. Well, and you know, you had some fascinating experiences obviously going in, you know, with the Native America and then going over to China and all the different aspects there. But how do. People, I guess for some who have really suffered this abuse or have suffered incredible grief in their lives, how do they, number one, become aware of the fact that, hey, you know what, this is something that I don't have to be the victim of. I can actually do something about this. How do people get to the point where they're able to recognize that, you know what, this isn't what I need to accept in my life?

13:36 Number one? But then number two. Beyond that, how do I start actually working through this? Because they can't all go to China, they can't all do the things that you were able to do. And many times you know their mothers and that have children, responsibilities, their husbands that have to work and support the family, whatever that happens to be. So how do you help one well? And I guess, first how to observe that someone who is experiencing everything they don't want to experience, or even partially to become aware that, you know what, this is something that's internal, that is not permanent, and this is something that I can actually take control of.

14:19 There's a vast difference in the level of awareness in certain individuals. I find. We can all see it. There are individuals who were so well. One graphic example there is that I don't guess I could get sued for this. I don't know if they're even still open. But Turquoise Bar, which was between ship Rock and Farmington, New Mexico, and oh guy, it was horrendous the You know, sometimes you would have some of those folks there drinking so much so inebriated and wander out to the middle of the road and get plowed down by a car. And you know, some of those bars are like real knife and clubs, and so that's the example of this extreme dysfunction. You see people who are caught up in gangs and others who are in just extraordinarily abusive relationships of one form or another, and they just feel trapped and they're experiencing enormous pain and suffering in the circumstances the situations they're in, yet they're I don't think everyone does have that awareness.

15:31 Some do awarenesses. You know, for many of us, that's the first first step. And when we gained that awareness, I mean for me, it was I was suffering so badly, so it was like, okay, what does it take to heal? At first, I was flailing blindly. I did not know what to do. Like I said, I reached out to a psychotherapist, but I was at a complete loss, and as I met the psychotherapy took me so far, but there was I was coming against the limitations. So then I again intuitively developing these practices. While that took me so. Far, I need it more so then I began exploring these interventions. So it really takes a willingness determination, the mindset of like, okay, what does it take for you?

16:24 First the awareness, but then what is it going to take for me to heal? And a willingness to explore to make use one to do the practice in two make use of the most effective therapeutic interventions. One thing that concerns me tremendously is in our culture at this time in history, we are more distracted than ever before, and we spent so much time on their devices and we're scrolling and it's literally rewiring our brains, changing the biochemical balance of our brains, so we tend to skit her along the surface of reality. So it's become much harder for people to have that sustained focus and commitment because we've been developing this digital media attention deficit. So there needs to be this commitment and consistency when it comes to healing because these wounds that we carry, they run so extraordinarily deep. I mean, some people have it a bit easier than others. We're all want to continue them somewhere, but especially those of us where we carry a lot of this profound emotional wounding or trauma. It's going to take extraordinary amounts of effort, not all at once, it's this is an ongoing process. And the fact that I train with the Master from China, the Native American doctor, and also have had connections with people in the do Vehic lineage lineages who have also years of extraordinary discipline.

18:00 We need to be doing daily practice now, such as there's not all forms of meditation, but there are very specific forms of meditation practice that such as though as I teach, which enable you to work effectively with your emotions, because there's the historical emotional wounding trauma, but there's also daily life, you know, there's all the things we deal with in our relationships and financial insecurity and job related stress and just children and so on, and so we need to be digesting our lived experiences. So we need practice for that. And then we need therapeutic intervention too, as I described earlier, whether it's you know, psychotherapy for many as an important component deep tiss your body work and working with gifted healers. I don't think very few people are going to go on the vision quest, but you do have a lot to choose from acupuncture. You know, all these things are essential elements and helping you become more embodied and to heal and transform well.

19:06 And I think you did on an important point that you know, there are so many methodologies out there to be able to help to overcome some of these experiences and the trauma in our lives or the grief in our lives, whatever that happens to be. You know, you were fortunate to go out and really study a lot of those different things. And it's similar. I've not had the opportunity to do what you've done, but as I've studied with different people, particularly with meditation, which part of what you're talking about, what I find is, you know, I'll do this, I'll do that, and over a period of time, I find out what works for me, and it may be a combination of different things, your experience with the Native Americans, with China, with India, and all of a sudden you've got all of these multiplicities of mythology or you know, methodology of doing meditations and so forth, and now you have created something obviously that works for you and you're discovering that it works with people that you work with. So there's that attraction to you because you happen to have that ability for them. What tell me a little bit about your meditation technique, And again, before we get to that, the one comment I want to make, and I think you've hit on an important point, is that this is something that we need to take responsibility for. This is something that we need to take

20:37 control of. And I remember a theological talk that I heard a number of months ago, and they were talking about new beginnings, and the point was we always can begin again. You know, we may we may focus and go in a certain direction, then we make some mistakes or we kind of revert back, and sometimes for people that become so discouraging, they stop versus recognizing that, you know what, we can begin again. We can begin again because each time we begin, oftentimes we're taking one more step up the ladder. So the next time we begin, we're a little higher level than we were before. So talk a little bit about your meditation and why you feel that that helps people that you work with really get through some of this trauma and grief.

21:28 Our lift experiences and our emotional responses to them need to be digested, assimilated like the digest assimilate the food you eat. And the concern here is that the vast majority of people have never learned to work effectively with their own emotions. A lot of people go through life varying, suppressing, denying, distracting, medicating with alcohol and other recreational drugs could be refined, sugar could be to bay, and even now some people psychotropic meds may be the best known solution for some individuals.

22:08 But also feel that there's a certain percentage of people that just because they've never learned to work effectively with their emotions, they're overwhelmed with anxiety or they're feeling we'refoundly depressed. And yet the more we learn to work effectively with our emotions, they become more manageable. We are able to again digest or lived experiences or emotional responses, We're able to work through resolve issues, and it lightens the load, makes us more resilient. So the basic practice, and there are many versions, but the most basic acknowledge what's going on?

22:48 What are you dealing with in your life? You are there challenges in your relationship or you're wanting to be in relationship, you're going only or you're insecure because you're getting bigive mixed signals. Are is their job related stress? If you're anxious about your financial status, how you're going to come up with the funds to meet rent and all the other basic expenses. If there are health concerns that are affecting you, it's whatever the issue. One, Acknowledge what's happening. You know what is actually going on. Two what are you feeling in response to it? Recording from middlew New York City, and you could hardly record without having the ambulance goodbye, so you may hear that in the background. But again, acknowledge what's happening to What do you feel in response to it? Because it sadness, grief, uncertainty, disappointment, anger, resentment, It could be a whole range of feelings. And I will say that you don't necessarily have to It doesn't always have to be unpleasant feelings. There are a lot of times we have experiences that evoke feelings of happiness, joy, love, appreciation.

24:07 You can work with these feelings too. The challenge is for many people it's those unpleasant feelings that get are painful, traumatic kinds of emotional responses that get stuck in our bodies. So acknowledge what's happening. What do you feel? Where are the feelings situated in your body? Are they in your throat, down in your abdomen? Are they bury deep within your chest? Bring as much awareness as you can to where these feelings are situated. Feelings are bodily sensations, feel as if you're going into the depths, deep into the middle of what you're feeling. Allow the feelings to be what they are. You're not trying to send them away, You're not sending light to them or anything. You just let them be what they are, and then breathe very softly, very deeply, with your eyes closed, at least initially, follow the feelings as they go through their progression. You want to breathe all the way down to your abdomen, expand your abdomen, then your ripcage. Do you take that full deep breath, pause briefly, and then exhale very slowly all the way out, Pause again, and complete the cycle. When you're sitting practicing, for the most part, I keep my eyes closed. I encourage you to do so. Yet the more you work with this practice, you could bring it into your daily life. You can do it while you're cleaning the house or doing other things. Chores are things

25:39 that need to be done even while you're driving. Just make sure you keep your eyes on the road. You're well aware. We don't want to close your eyes there, do. We definitely, so only do it driving. If you could be deeply focused on other cars in the road in front of you and what's going on around you and everything. You do it while you're walking. You could do it in the midst of a conversation. It will slow your speech down some you know, you won't talk quite as fast, you'll go a little slower. But but I have found numerous occasions where things had gotten a bit tense, you know, where people were pretty reactive, and I would drop into my body what I was feeling. I would be breathing like this, and it would actually diffuse the situation. It would turn down the intensity on the other person. Now, because like you strike one tuning fork and that next tuning fork starts vibrating. So it's that phenomena of sympathetic resonance.

26:42 And the stronger you get in your own practice, the greater presence you develop, the more impact you have on other people. Well, and so you know, you talk about breathing, and you know, I get into this a lot because there are so many different philosophies about meditation and breathing. And by the way I walk meditation, I love it. I you know, I will do it over an hour at least three times a week where I'm walking meditation. But I already describe that on another podcast. I could add a little more to it, but go ahead. Yeah, But as I'm having. The opportunity to interview people such as yourself who've got such great experience with meditation and breathing, there are so many different schools of thought about how to breathe and so forth. For instance, you know with Joe Despenza, you know you're breathing through your nose for him, which is interesting because I love what you talk about as far as breathing into the abdomen and really getting that. My dad was a classible voice teacher North Russian University, and I remember him always teaching his students how to breathe deeply because that's what gave them the power to sing classically the way that they wanted to do so. And as you talk about that, breathing in and so forth.

28:10 You're breathing through your nose, are you breathing out through your nose or are you breathing out through your mouth? And there's some interesting scientific aspects to that. So what is your specific or do you find that you help people do it in different ways based on who they are and what they're experiencing. I'm primarily breathing through my nose in and out, but there's on occasion I find myself exhaling through my mouth. I know, there's a lot of variation, and there's you know, within the Daoist and hindu Vedic traditions, there are innumerable practices, thousands, and there's a lot. That I don't know that I'm not aware of. You know, there's practices where you make your tongue like a trough when you exhale and o. There's over time, I'd like to explore a lot more of this. But and when you do cheekong practice, you're also there's visualizations that go with it as well. So there's a lot of it I do know. But one of my favorite quotes, the more I learned, the more I realize I have yet to learn. I would lo to mention, since you brought up walking meditation, and this is so important because a lot of people who do carry trauma are people who are under overwhelming stress. What I found is this is in my late twenties, and at first I was either sitting and there are times where the pain was so overwhelming I was curled up on my side. But one night I just couldn't stand it anymore, and I

29:42 took off walking through the neighborhood lived in Kansas City at the time, and the neighborhood adjoining neighborhoods went on for miles. And so what I found is that when I went out walking, I could drop into the depths of what I felt and breathe, and like a lot of the emotions that we carry remain pent up in our bodies, and because they're so uncomfortable, we contract a bit. But walking I found out a lot that emotion began to extend outwards, Like we all have an electromagnetic field around the body, and so that emotion that stress everything I could feel extending outward, filling that field around my body, and not only that circulating and then the Earth has its own electromagnetic field, which is very healing grounding balancing.

30:35 I could feel the Earth's electromagnetic field interacting with my own working to cleanse or purify what I was carrying, and so in the most difficult periods of time. And this is why I recommend for people who are dealing with like profound grief, that are just an extraordinary amounts of pain, you know, just encounter horrendous adversity or traumas surfacing. I relied on the walking meditation for a couple of years. That's what helped me to maintain sanity. And the good thing about that is with that movement, the bilateral motion, it engages both hemispheres of the brain and that's helping you to process the Earth is helping you being out outside of your apartment. If we're just stuck inside your house or apartment, things don't tend to move that well.

31:26 But you get out like that, walking that gradual pace, it just makes the process softer, easier, more bearable. It's a lot easier on your body because those emotions, the stress is that a lot of us carry can be hard on the body. So this won't mitigate much of that intensity. Well, and I think you've hit on really an important point. You know, walking, the movement of the body, you as you say, the bilateral movement of the body. And I'm not in any way an expert on any of this, but you know, when you look at tai chi, when you look at chigong, a lot of that is combining that mindset and focus.

32:10 Mentally and bodily movement. And it's amazing to me, as I've talked to different people about this, how that bodily movement helps so much in that meditative state because for some reason that helps to release some of these emotions and so forth. For me, you know, and I think a lot of people, you. Know, when you talk about walking, and for me, you know, if I went out and I started walking, and I'd look at this, I'd look at that and so forth. So I found that I needed to put on headphones and start listening to different types of music and so forth. And I've tried all the different types, you know, the minineural, sofiggio, all those different frequencies and so forth. Well, for me, finally I found the most effect. It was the singing bolts, and so I'd go on the YouTube and download, you know, an hour worth of singing bowls, and for me, that allowed me to focus on something internally and as I'm walking, and for me obviously where I'm at, I found that being able to walk through fields and walk near ponds of water and be able to experience all of that has made such a difference in my meditative capabilities and a purpose for my meditation, which is, you know, in some degree, really seeking to understand life more and theologically.

33:43 But I think it's important for people to understand, Yeah, you can sit, and I can't sit. It kills my back when I sit for too long. But you know, as you walk, as you go through some of this physical motion as well as mental that as you you can learn how to focus on just your breathing and so forth, it seems to make such a difference overall in the outcome. Now I feel like I have so many things that I'm so many balls I'm keeping in the air. And I was in spending a lot of time in Sri Lanka during the midst of its war that lasted nearly thirty years, and it really affected me to be there.

34:30 And I've spent a lot of time staying in the former war zone. A number of my friends are former rebel combatants, former Tamil Tigers, LPTE and getting to know them. It's like and they'll tell you we didn't ever want to fight, you know, it's we're fighting for survival. And then with the war in Ukraine, I started following what was happening when Russian forces were lining up outside the Ukrainian border. And I've looked at it every day, nearly every day, let's say. And during the early you know, the first year, I was listening to biographies of like of Joseph Stalin, of listening to a book on the Guloc system. Annie Applebaum, who wrote the book on the Guloc System and the Holo de Moor where Stalin's starved about three million Ukrainians to death, is one of my favorite authors. And then she's amazing and I got to meet her in person. And so I'd be at times listening to audio books and just because there's so much I want to learn and understand and make sense of things all that. But I found that if I listen to audiobooks, I'll be more in my head in a way and just absorbing information. But when I go do walking meditation as much as possible, and this is what I have people do. When I'm actually teaching them, I get them to initially close their eyes and drop in.

36:02 It's like, Okay, what challenges are you facing and what are you feeling emotionally? Are what are the physical sensations within your body? And so many of us are. Maybe we don't meet the clinical classifications of someone with a dissociative disorder, but from at least from my standpoint, we all experience varying degrees of disconnect or dissociation. And what I find is by the more you can bring your awareness into either the emotions feelings that are arising in the physical sensations, and you could bring as much awareness as you can to what you're feeling, and that helps to bridge that gap between the mind and the body so that you become more embodied, more present. And there's so much emphasis in the traditions that I've trained, and where you're bringing soul or spirit down into the body, you know its embodiment, and you know even within the Daoist traditions, like you see the yin young symbol. I'm not sure how to describe it, but I think you can look it up on the internet if you don't know what it is, just look at young symbol but part of it symbolizes the body itself, and the other is like the soul or the spirit. And there's a way in which they they nourish, they feed each other.

37:32 And so you're building, you're continually building, cultivating this greater presence, greater capability, and in these traditions, these individuals who have attained mastery. You know, I've trained from those who have attained mastery, and long when you're just going back hundreds, if not thousands of years, and as I said, it will do hours of intensive daily practice. You're continually building. And I know some people say, well that's time for that, but thinking the amount of time we spend scrawling on our devices, and how much time we spend staring at the TV screen. So if you can become more you know, if you can develop your more and more of your potential, you realize your potential, develop greater and greater capacity, and you work through the emotional wounding that you carry so that you have greater and greater resilience. I mean to me, that's you're living more fully. That's the purpose to me.

38:34 And I think you've hit the key is that we have so many distractions in our lives, and hey, I'm going to I'd love to, you know, get I come to work and do a lot of stuff on my computer, and then to relax. I'll go and watch some TV for a while. I'll come back and work, and obviously in the morning I'll get up and do my walking, meditation and so forth. But there's so many distractions in our lives and for people to understand that, and I think you've hit on such a good point watching TV, scrolling through social media. You know, if you were to just change twenty minutes, thirty minutes, forty minutes and focus on yourself in your emotions, and I think you've hit them the key point.

39:18 And we're going to get close to be in here. But one of the points that I think you made that is so important for people to understand is is those emotions come up, you don't fight them, You allow them to be there. Because as you allow them to be there, ultimately the force of those emotions starts to diminish. So anyway, as we're coming to a close, what would be kind of a final message that you'd like to share with the audience that hopefully would make a difference for them. I think that one of the most important things is taking the mindset of whatever challenges adversity that you're dealing with in your life as much as possible. Embrace that you may not like it, which is understandable. But if you can take the mindset of this is my karma, and not karma in the sense of like punishment for something you did way back there, but karma in the sense of, this is my lesson to learn. And so how can I take this what I'm experiencing, what I'm dealing with or going through. How can I take this and use this to heal, to grow, to transform myself and to become more capable and more on the Hinduvedic tradition to use that term self realization, you know, so to become more realized to more embodied.

40:42 Oh yeah, and that's such an important point. Thanks. So Ben, how do people find you, particularly those that maybe want to work with you and get some better experiences. My main website is Benufana dot com. I'll send that over in the show notes for the show notes, and there's a contact form so you can message me on the contact form. That's the best way. I mean, there is a Google Voice number three three two three three three five one five five. You can leave a message. If you don't hear from me, just assume I didn't get the message, email, call whatever again. Also, there's teach Me to Meditate dot com. I've developed a broad or very extensive series of meditation practices. It's all about getting more in your body and really digesting all your lift experiences and emotions. And for people who are in the midst of a breakup, divorce, ghosting, there's breakup first aid. It's getting you through the initial devastation, getting you back on your feet. And there's more of a deep dive, which is heal my Heartache. So those struggling with attachment and abandonment wounds, really understanding the wounding, the steps that you need to take to heal and also to build foundation that makes healthy reciprocal love possible again.

42:05 Heal my Heartache and you can find me on Instagram. I have my YouTube channel where I post long form video. There's a bunch of articles I post on my blog on Benuefunda dot com, so you have numerous ways that you can follow up. And there's a lot of a lot that I have to share. Wonderful Ben, thanks so much your inspiration here in just what you're doing makes such a difference, and you've had such great insights today that I hope will make a difference for those that have been listening. So thanks again for being on the show. Thank you so much, Doctor Doug, and folks, thanks for listening. I hope you've enjoyed it.

42:46 Look forward to having you join us again soon. So this is doctor Doug sin no mistake, zero