Stop Airbrushing God — Phil Tague on Covenant Faith and Coming Home

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0:44 Denzel Washington, Welcome to inspire vision. Our sole purpose is to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you. To do the same. Bill welcome, so good to be here. Glad we finally got this to work out. Yeah, and I'm excited, you know, And I want you to tell the audience a little bit about you your growing up and how that has affected you and what you're doing now. One of the reasons, you know it's rare. In fact, you're the first first pastor I have ever interviewed on my podcast. I tried to be real careful about that. But what hit me and what really motivated me to start looking was I was on Facebook and there was a post, not someone that I know, but for some reason it showed up and it was a young lady i'd say in her late teens, early twenties, and the comment was help me. I am so confused.

1:40 I'm trying to determine do I pray to Jesus' doory, pray to God or Heavenly Father? And I thought, you know what, that has created such an issue for people, I think, and a lot of stress for people. So anyway, with that said, share with the audience who you are, mentioned a little bit about the book that you've written, and then we'll go from there. Okay, Yeah, So you know, like you said, my name's Phil Tagg. I am a pastor in the Wesleyan denomination. I'm in Sioux Fall, South Dakota, living. I moved away and then ended up back planting a church, starting a new church in our hometown back in two thousand and and nine, and we've been here for seventeen years doing this work.

2:23 Me and my wife married for. Josh Shia twenty five years now have three kids, two of them are getting close to graduating college. Then ten years later we adopted one. He's eleven. Now that's a little bit of my story. Now. I grew up in an adoptive home. I was adopted as one of four adopted children. And I grew up in a home that. Was faith based, Christian, faith based. And you know, my dad in particular, really good, really good guy, really passionate guy, and really wanted us to have faith and to believe, but took a pretty legalistic approach to things. I think that was his military background.

3:06 I think I was just kind of some of that, but he was. He was very much uh, you know, just a lot of a lot of rules, a lot of if you do this, you're rewarded. If you do this, you're you know that you're punished. And it was all well meaning. I was, you know, I loved my parents. My parents have passed, but I love my parents. Uh, had a beautiful relationship with them. But but really struggled in my faith between Like I don't know if you know anything about the enneagram. I'm an niogram three. So I'm like a performer achiever. I want to like get the gold Star and and and do the you know, do well. And and so I wanted to I wanted to do I wanted to follow Jesus well.

3:47 But also just all these rules, all. These regulations, I just like, I would read the scriptures and I I would read these stories and it didn't seem to match with what I was experiencing so often in the local church and in my home, and just it was in a wrestling match there. So I was back and forth between kind of doing the things I wanted to do and then trying to be a you know, good, you know, Bible believing kid, and then doing the things I want to do. And and you know, I felt called into full time ministry after my senior year of high school, and I did not want to do that. I had all these pictures in my head of what that meant. I thought I was going to have to marry a church organist, you know, and beople for my whole life and do all that. And I just had all these things I didn't want to do. And so I ended up going my freshman year to college to study for ministry. And I was spending the year studying for ministry, and at the same time, I was wrestling with my faith and whether or not I believed in the first place, and and and the way that I was going about it was I was searching for evidence that every Christian.

4:53 Was a hypocrite. Well, Christians are people, so that was not hard to find, right, you know, because we all struggle with hypocrisy to some level. And at the end of that year, I decided I'm done, and I walked away from from that calling and from faith and just wandered for a while. And you know, it took. It took a lot of wandering and a lot of you know. I remember waking up one morning and I don't remember how I got home, and I don't remember the party I'd been at the night before, and I was just miserable. And it was the first time I felt like I had an encounter with God. I was laying there in my bed feeling pretty miserable, and I felt like I heard the voice of God say to me, so, you think the answer.

5:35 To hypocrisy is hypocrisy? Interesting? And it was the first time I realized that faith for me had always been about a standard or hitting, you know, trying to list the rules. It had never been about a relationship and that sort of transformed my faith and sent me on the on the path that I'm on today. Oh that's wonderful. Yeah, and it's so interesting. I think people forget how we can get that in where you can call it inspiration and we can call it whatever we want to. But the reality is is that there is that realm that if we can tap into it, or if it needs to tap into us, that we can get the messages that are meant for us. And I really believe that, So I appreciate what you're talking about.

6:16 You know, it's interesting you talk about what your experience was as a child, and as I've done a bunch of research on this prayer to our talking, one of the things that was fascinating to me is there's over ten major different serious denominations of Christianity, and then when you get beyond that, it gets into hundreds of not thousands, of different denominations, and each one believes something a little bit different. And one of the things that fascinates me about what you when I was reading a lot about what you're talking about, is that you talk about a christ covenant, You talk about having a new relationship with God, but you have kind of moved at least, and I'm assuming here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but you've kind of moved away from just salvation. As far as you know, I believe in Christ. Therefore I'm saved. I accept Christ in my life. There's something meaning that it's we're changed from the inside out, something that changes a little bit, and so there's something just beyond that. Am I correct in that?

7:28 Yeah? I mean I would. I would say, you know, salvation when you're talking about Christian ideals, Okay, salvation is so often treated like the finish line, like Okay, I got saved, I prayed a prayer, I did a thing. Now I'm in I'm going to heaven, and it so often doesn't affect the way people are living, or if it does affect the way they're living, they're like, well, now I got to follow this list to rules, and that's what this thing is. But salvation was never meant to be the finish line. Was meant to be the starting line, to be the beginning of a journey with a towards a God who wants a relationship with us. From a Christian standpoint, this entire thing is about a God, you know, I mean the most famous scripture of John three sixteen.

8:14 God so loved the world that he gave his one and only sons. So the whole ideal is about a God who has always been seeking after us and seeking to fulfill this relationship with us. And that's the part I think a lot of Christians. Just miss well, And it's interesting. I looked up I was so curious. In fact, one of the things I do is i'm studying the Bible, is I want to understand the real words, and so I go back and really try to understand what's the true meaning Hebrew wise, Greek wise of these words. And so I looked up saved. And here's the answer that I got, sozo, which is the great word itself carries a sense of rescue, yes, but healing, restoration, being made whole, being brought safely through danger.

9:02 It's really talking about restoring the entire person. And I think that's why one of these why I wanted to talk to you about this and have you on the show, because I think so often you know a lot of people that I talked to on my podcast, and I have done over three hundred and sixty podcast here. One of the things is you know, we talked about personal transformation, and so often there's not much quote, well, I was going to say, there's spirituality involved, but somewhere along the line, there's not much talk about God, our heavenly Father in that relationship. And I thought to myself, you know what, I think it's so important that we understand that that concept has kind of been launched as interesting as we go into history. And as I studied that a bit and researched that and read a lot of you know, true researchers, how in the very beginning there literally was in fact Deuteronomy with the dead Sea squirrels. It came up interesting that el or Elohim, God actually talked to his sons, one of whom was Yahweh or Adonai, and aside him the children of Israel and ultimately this world, this earth. And so you read that, and then it talks about how as history continued, the kings and so

10:33 forth decided, you know what, we don't want that. In fact, they talked about Astra, who was his consort or his wife whatever. They moved that out of the temple. They got that all destroyed, and all of a sudden, by the time Christ came. It talked about how Adanai and El ultimately by the historians of philosophers, were melded into one. And so when Christ came, it was fascinating to me that one of the things he was doing was trying to correct everything that had happened within the Jewish situation, in the Hebrew situation, and so a lot of the things he was talking about, and he was fighting against the Philistines and you know, and so forth, because he was trying to say, you know what, I've fulfilled this law.

11:19 Now here's what I want you to understand. And have you looked at that that way at all and. Looked at that perspective, you know, I mean obviously, I mean my Judeo Christian concept is is Western eyes and shape by you know, how I grew up and so you're growing up in Thailand. Are our histories and understandings are. You know, going to maybe not match up entirely, but but yes, the idea that Jesus came to not abolish law, but fulfill it and to complete what was you know, the purpose of this entire thing in the first place, you know, to do what we could not do for ourselves, for for certain because we continue to make it about the wrong things and we continue to miss the right thing, which is this relationship with God that that you know.

12:10 So yeah, I mean it's a lot of the reason that I wrote the book is is you know, in America, in Western Christianity, American Christianity, uh, this idea of salvation is like you know, the description you read was so holistic and so so robust and frankly lifelong. You know, this lifelong because obviously none of us are are perfect, you know, on this side of this this earthly realm. But this idea that salvation begins, this relationship with God. And yet there is through this process like in the scriptures in church, we often you know, say, pray this prayer of salvation. But Jesus did you know, Jesus never prayed to prayer salvation with anybody. No, he never prayed that's it. He didn't do that at all. He never said, well, if you want to, if you want to follow me, you got to, like now, pray this prayer in the name of me. And you know he didn't do it.

13:08 He just said come follow me. He said, daily, deny yourself, take it across and follow me. It was. It was a journey and a relationship, and it was ongoing and it was progressive. And you know that in our denomination, the. Wessington denomination, we talk about the process of being sanctified, which is a scriptural concept that starts at salvation. But it's this idea of day by day being refined and growing more and more in the image enlightness of the one we're following. And while in this lifetime we will never achieve that perfectly, the goal of the desire is that every day I become more like Christ, that every day I grow in that relationship with God and I become more like His son Jesus. That's the that's the the picture in the journey, yes.

13:53 You know. And what's what's fascinating to me and this concept that I've heard before, and I don't know if I read in your bio or not, but the concept of reading the Bible backwards and it talks about and I've listened to various people, historians and so forth, talk about this a bit. But it's interesting how if we have something that we believe, and you know, we always have to be right. That's just human nature. I'm right that we take that quote dogma belief, and then we go back to the Bible and find a scripture that proves that we're right, and we ignore all the other stuff that is I would not say incorrect, you know, in direct contradiction to that, but rather that expands upon it.

14:45 And I think that's that's the key. I know that there's some that say, well, there's so many contradictions in the Bible, and I think if you look at it from the standpoint of their statements, that make and then as they're expanded upon, now all of a sudden, we start makes sense. Why is it that we so often want to go backwards that we want to have our document and now we want to find something in the Bible that's going to prove us right. Well, so that's I mean, that's a great segue into introducing you know, we're talking about this book Jesus be the centerfold that I wrote, choosing Covenant faith over airbrush Christianity. The reason we do that is okay, and this is going to be how I defined it in my book.

15:25 My goal in my teaching and anything I write is to take a pretty pretty deep concept and try to put it on the bottom shelf where everybody can reach. It's that's my goal. Okay, So not to be over simplistic, but to unpack a truth. Right. The reason we do that is because if if I can shape God in my image, then I can justify my life. Right. But if I'm discovering a God that is greater and more powerful than me, and he wants me to shape my image, and I have to sometimes I don't want to shape be shaped by what I'm learning, you know what I mean. I just want to believe what I want to believe. And so the metaphor I use in my book. So a little bit about my background. I was exposed to pornography really young, like eight nine years old, and it kind of got his hooks in me. And one time I got caught by my dad and he was pretty upset and he was, uh, you know, I was getting in trouble, and he he made the comment, you know, those images aren't even real. They're just like airbrush.

16:29 They're not even like real real. And I realized that that didn't matter to me, and that was a little weird. But as I as I. Got older and I thought back on that, what I realized is that my while lust was a byproduct of of what I was struggling with. What I was. Really longing for was real relationship with the cost without the cost of intimacy, right I wanted to. I wanted something that felt intimate without the cost of an intimate relationship. And I think that's why it, you know, in the Christian faith in particularly, I think that's why people struggle. We want to bend, bend God's word to our lives. We want to we want to take our dogmas and read them into scripture. Is because.

17:11 I want to airbrush Jesus into somebody that's palatable to me. And when you read Scripture. He says, there's always going to be things that you don't like or you want to wrestle with and or dismiss or color with the black highlighter, you know what I mean, just cross it on out. And and I think what we're really longing for is I think we were designed to be in a relationship with God. That what I believe. That's my personal belief. And I think that we want all of the benefits of an intimate relationship with God, but none of the work of intimacy. Well, and it's interesting, you know, we get into the whole concept. And there's so many places in the New Testament that talk about, you know, the Father and I are one, and you know initially that that has created and particularly coming from the Catholic Church in the Council of Nice and then later counsels, that they created the sole concept of all in one, one and all blah blah blah, that type of thing. And I know that there's a love to believe that, and I respect that.

18:10 But what's interesting you go back to the original Greek and Hebrew word and meaning again, and it has nothing to do with melding together. It has to do with purpose, It has to do with representative and so forth, and particularly when you get into when he says again you know that they may be one with me and with the Father, that we may all be sanctified together. And as interesting as you talk about that, that, yes, the whole goal is to become one again with the Savior, who represents the Father, which means we want to become one with God, our heavenly Father once again. And that's I think the purpose of why we're even here on earth.

18:52 In order to do that, we needed Christ to come and to perform that sacrifice that atonement so that we would not have to pay the justification of responsibility if we're willing to really seek to overcome and become more like him thoughts. Yeah, I mean I not only would we not have to, I don't think we could. You know we can. I don't think it's possible. Man, I've tried real hard to be good. I've tried real hard to be But perfect's like a thing, you know. And if perfects the standard, if God is perfect and holy and sovereign and all the things you know, I know, I mean the amount of places it says in scripture like hey, all your good deeds.

19:38 Are like filthy rags. Actually, the the literal translation of that passage, as in Isaiah is it compares our good deeds on earth to. Menstrual rags, which is pretty aggressive, right. And but it paints a pretty clear picture that not that you'll never be good enough, but that hey, nothing you do can ever be perfect. But the fact that God would send his son to do that for us is pretty profound. Well, and you know you use the word perfect. That's another one I looked up because what I have found in all of my work is that oftentimes, you know, there are so many different imprints that are put on us subconsciously that create the sense that I'm not good enough, and that type of thing. Perfection is one of those.

20:27 And when you get to the original meaning again in the Greek and Hebrew, it has nothing to do with without fault. It has everything to do with complete. So all of a sudden, when we read that again, be there for perfect what it is talking about, and it goes to what you're saying is be complete, and that becomes a process. And then also one of the things that interesting is you read different things is that it's a process. And you talked about sanctification. It's a process that occurs and occurs and occurs probably will be on this life. I I love the progressive nature of the sanctifying process.

21:07 And and you're absolutely right, I mean, we are are understanding of perfection. You know, the idea of being complete versus the idea of being perfect is the difference between being made whole in a relationship with God versus having to earn my way and be good enough. And this has never been about being good enough. In fact, when when scripture says, hey, your good works are like filthy rags, it's it's trying to express that like, this has never been about being good enough. This about being set apart. It's being about being chosen and set apart, and you choose me, Like there's a I believe there's a relationship. There, but but it was never about earning. You know. I think the whole point of the majority of the. Old Testament is is and again I'm going to oversimplify this, but if you want a picture of what the law looks like when you have to earn it, here's what it is. You know, it's this complex, Like I think the point of the law was you can't complete I mean, and the Israelites never did perfectly keep the law. We always needed him, We always needed a mediator. That was that was I think the point.

22:13 Yeah. Well, and you know, I used to do a little bit of consulting for small businesses and one of the concepts that I really stressed was something known as a KPI, a key performance indicator, And I thought about that as it relates to our lives and the fact that you know, when we talk about the commandments and when Christ talked about the various stories that he told about, you know, how you need to be this and be that and so forth. And I liked the concept of b rather than do. But I looked at that as key indicators. And if we looked at if we looked at the doing this as key indicators, where are we at?

22:55 How are you know? Because in business, if you're not quite there, then you make some decis visions on what I need to do in order to get there. If we look at that in life, those key indicators is what Christ taught and then we can look at what have we become and at what level have we gone through that sanctification process, and what do we need to do to go to the next step, to the next step, to the next step to become even closer to Him? Yeah, And I mean that the goal of the whole thing. Is, in my in my opinion, is closest closeness to Him, you know what I mean, It's that desire. For you know, I'm a pretty firm believer.

23:37 That no amount of doing the right thing can make you good enough. But like my scriptures full. Of things, it's calling us to call them KPIs whatever, you know, like, it's full of things to aspire to. But they are they are in my opinion, a like I think about it this way. I've been married almost twenty five years. There are a thousand things I do in my marriage because there because I want to honor my wife, you know. And if I if I did those thousand things and I always thought I got to do this, or she's going to complain, She's going to my motivation for doing them. If I'm doing them because I think I have to do these or my wife will be unhappy with me, that steals the purpose of them from you know. But the reality is there are things I do because I'm like, I love her. She hates that I want to honor her, and so I take out the trash all the time because I because I love her. It's it's a response to my love.

24:40 And so I think all of these things is like I mean, Scripture says, if you love me, you'll obey my commandments. It's the response of this relationship with God is he knows best. I trust him, and these are the things that he says are good for me, are. Not good for me, and they guide my life. So the goal of wanting to be more like him as an aspiration to be closer to him because I love him, because I'm in a relationship with him. That's how that's my understanding of how I'm navigating this thing. Called be well. And it's interesting, as I've talked to a lot of people about personal transformation and taking even religion out of that for a minute, it's interesting how we look at the fact that our lives and the experiences we have in our lives are merely a reflection of that internal subconscious belief system that we have. We can to attract that which we believe. So if we're in that situation I'm not good enough, You'll keep having experiences that prove you're not good enough. And I look at it from the standpoint of as we get into this whole concept of Christ, it's interesting how what we are reflects our behavior. And I think it's just exactly what you were saying that you know, if you're doing that because you need to make sure that your wife thinks you really love her, that's different than being who you are. Therefore, you do those things because you do

26:13 love her, not because you want to prove that you love her. Yes, Yes, it's it's all in where does it come in the process? Right? You know? Again, in my in my book, I talk a lot about an intimate relationship with our heavenly Father, and that one of the ways that I define intimacy in the book is that intimacy is being fully known and still chosen. So like again in my marriage, we we equate intimacy with sexuality because when when you're having a sexual experience, you're you're pretty well known. You know you're pretty, and they still choose you. That feels pretty intimate, right, But it's it's not primarily a sexual thing. So when I begin to understand who God is, his love for me, his will for my life, and I began to choose him and choose to follow him, that increases intimacy in that relationship.

27:09 And when I begin to understand that. Like who he is and who Christ is, and what God did for me by sending his son Jesus, and my understanding of him changes to this is a God who knows everything I've done and still wants a relationship with me. That the opportunity for intimacy within that relationship goes up. And now the rule following is a byproduct of the relationship and the love that I have for him, not a way to earn that relationship, and that was probably the most transformational thing for me from my childhood to that experience that. I had where I went, I'm like, I love God.

27:51 I'm following God because I love God and I believe what he wants is best for me, and that begin to transform my life and is my life perfect? No? I make mistake all the time. I messed up today, you know. But but but I'm not living in a space every day where I'm trying to earn his favor. And that's a game changer. You know, when we make this, you know, when we make mistakes, that's where grace comes in. That's why he did what he did. And I think, particularly here we are, it's really fascinating that, you know, we tried to do this a couple of times, different days, and here we are at Easter time, and it's fascinating to me that here's the start of that week that ends in Easter next Sunday. And it's fascinating to me how we tend to not realize that, you know what, there's this whole realm of becoming like him. One of the questions I want to ask you, and I know you see this.

28:45 I see this on Facebook, I see this on TikTok. There's so much argument and unkindness and rhetoric that goes on that you know what, this church is not true and this church look at all the mistakes they make that church, and it's about every church that you can think of and every denomination that you can think of. Why is that happening? Number one? And number two? What are your thoughts about it? And how do we ultimately stop that? Because I don't think it does any good to criticize everyone else. Yeah, yeah, I mean there are a hundred reasons why that happens, but you know, it breaks my heart. And honestly, COVID broke my heart as I watched the church react to COVID h and I thought, what an incredible time to show grace to a broken and hurting and scared world.

29:39 And we lost our minds the church. I just think that the American church lost its mind. And and you know, I think the over simplistic answer to why it's happening is I want control, not surrender. Surrenders. Scary surrenders like even you and I have this conversation on the first passer that's had this conversation with you, A one hundred percent guaranteed you and I don't agree on everything, right, yeah, like even on the way we think about scripture and our interpretations. But the safety of a conversation like this doesn't exist anymore. It's just safer to stay behind a screen and post something. And if I can post that you're wrong, that makes me feel right. If my if I'm trying to if I'm trying to earn my way in this world and make sure I'm okay with a God that is out there, then one of the best ways to do that is to point out what's wrong with you and your church and the way you're doing things, Because then me and my church are fine, you and your faith and the way you're doing things, because me and my faith are fine. Now, I have a very strong faith and a very strong belief in how I've a proach scripture, but there has to be space for like, not everybody's going to be on that same page. And I might be wrong, you know, and I don't think.

30:56 I think I've got a pretty clear but like I think when we get to have an it's going to be great because God's going to be like, oh, you Lutherans, you know you nailed this part oh, you are so far off on that, you Wesley Is you are so good on this provenient grace thing, You're so good on sanctification. But this whole part over here you met, you know, and I think he's gonna be like my kids. You're so cute. You just you messed it all, you know. But but I think the reason we're so divided is because we're we're searching for our. Validation the wrong things. I was at an event recently and John Maxwell said, if your values in here are okay, you don't need external validation. But if you don't know what you believe in here, if you're messed up in here, you need to prove yourself out here all the time. I'm just I'm not living in a space where I have to prove myself, So I don't feel the need to compete or be on social media or like the church down the street's not the enemy, They're not they And the things we believe different on are probably not having our health issues. They're probably not even worth being divided about.

31:53 But you know, I just think people are the posture of their relationship with God is I need to be right before him, and if I can prove you're wrong. That makes me feel right and I feel better. And what is that doing? What is that doing to our christian. I mean, I think it's I think it's tearing the church apart. Honestly, I think that. I think that social media is maybe the worst thing that's happened to our society in my lifetime. And I think that, Uh, it's it's removing discourse. And the nature of discourse is, uh, there's there's space to disagree and not be on the same page and still call each other brother and sister. And I don't think that space exists anymore in our world. I think we live in a cancel culture, and we swipe right on the things we like and swipe left on the things we don't like, and and we we we have removed from ourselves any personal responsibility, you know. I mean, you look at the average Christian today and if they're struggling with something, like if I'm struggling with something, that's just that's just a personal struggle. But if you're struggling with it, it's a sin. You're a sinner. And I have grace for myself, but not for you. It's just that posture is certainly killing the credibility of the church.

33:10 Well, and you know, you get into this whole concept of communication, and I think, as you brought up so well, yeah, we probably have a bunch of things that we don't agree on. But it's interesting and this has come up in some of my other podcasts about communication. How we can take opposite individuals as far as their beliefs, whether it's religious, political, or whatever, and if they're willing and able to come together and to discuss it can create a curiosity that you know, you bring up something and I'm going, yeah, I've never thought about it that way. I'm going to think about that a little bit more. Yes, And all of a sudden it creates a whole new realm of thought and process and an ability to be curious and to consider other things. And sometimes and this has certainly happened with me that as some of these things are brought up, all of a sudden, Wow, I never thought of that, And it literally has changed the direction of my thinking in some cases.

34:10 Yeah. Well, and I think that there is a fear in the Western Church. For sure, there's there's a fear of our faith being challenged. But if it can't stand up to test. What worth is it? You know, if if if a human being can crumble my faith like a house of cards, you know, that's. That's a problem. Ideally, if we do challenge one another, maybe you know, ideal you learn from me, I learned from you, and and we're we're both better for it. Even if we walk away and we haven't moved each other's thought at all. You've actually given me the gift of challenging my faith in a way that caused me to go, No, I really do believe that, and I actually feel more affirmed in that, and I don't feel argumentative toward you about that.

34:55 I learned and I grow. And so when our faith, you know, strich your about iron sharpening iron, When our faith is tested against one another, my faith actually that testing makes my faith stronger, right, and it whether it changes my mind and I grow, or it reaffirms something. That I think I believe. You know, I had an atheist I was talking to for a while that I went to high school with, and he would point out evidence to me and he'd be like, look, watch this video. This is proof that God doesn't exist. And I would watch the video and I would come out of it, and I go, that absolutely proves the existence of an intelligent designer, like watching the same. Video, but that testing is healthy.

35:38 And he got to hear why that confirmed my faith and affirmed my faith, and I got to hear why he didn't have faith and and you know, so that discourse is what makes for healthy human society. But when you remove that, which I think social media has done, I think I think the news cycle has done. You. I think the way that our society is built right now, like no one knows how to have a conversation anymore. When you remove the ability to have a conversation, it's we get what we get what we see everywhere right now. Well, and you talk about, you know, these ulterior motives, and again I think it goes to, you know, how do we how do we help society to change what's going on right now into something more kind, more loving, more accepting. And I think one of the elements is this concept of ulterior motives. You know, if if our conversation, you know, here we are friends, all right or whatever, and if our conversation is I have that alterior motive that I'm going to convince you that I'm right, or you have the same motive versus saying, you know what, here, here's what I'm discovering. Is I'm curious and as I'm researching, as I'm doing this, here's some things that I find just fascinating, not with an intent to convince you, but with an intent to say, here's just some things. I'm fine.

37:00 And I think that as we talk about the conversations that are going on now, it's it's something that needs to change internally within each one of us, that we get rid of that ulterior motive to make me right and you wrong or me help you to understand much better what you don't understand too. You know, this is this is what I think, This is what I've resourched, this is what I thought, And it becomes a discussion of respect and ideas that sometimes as you say, well, you know, that's your idea, and I respect that, but that's not what I believe or wow, I never thought about that, and as I researched it a little bit.

37:41 Fore, and you know, like and even within that so like as as an evangelical Christian in the United States, who you know, you know, if if I believe Jesus is the only way to Heaven. I probably want people to believe that, but that doesn't mean my job is to beat in the death with the Gospel. My job is healthy discourse, right. You know, one thing I teach our people all the time is okay, if we believe in the Holy Spirit, you're not the Holy Spirit. I'm not the Holy Spirit. My job is not to convict or convince. My job is to share the hope that I have, and the Holy Spirit has to do the work right. And so I'm incredibly passionate about people coming to faith in Jesus.

38:26 Otherwise I wouldn't do what I do for a living. But I also don't feel you know, it is not my job to beat anybody into submission to the Gospel. That's not my goal. The goal is discourse and for me to continue to grow even in my understanding of faith. So I would say even faith systems you know, that are opposed, can come to the table and have a conversation for the sake of betterment of humanity and the betterment of the world and try to understand one another. And that's just healthy, even if they're trying to convince me and I'm trying to convince you know what, I mean, and it doesn't, but it doesn't have to be void of humanity. And I think that's one of the problems with the way society is approaching things right now. It's just void of humanity.

39:11 You know. Well, and you know you you mentioned I did not grow up in Thailand. I'm obviously an American, yeah, right, right right. You know, I've been here in a couple of years, and I go back and forth. But what fascinated me when I first got here is I loved I love photography, so I'd love to go to the different temples, take pictures and so forth, because they're fascinating. And I went to one temple that was just beautiful, and to the side, on the same land was another structure, and so I asked someone, I said, well, what's that, and they said, well, that's a Muslim temple. And I thought, wow, here's a Buddhist temple, here's a Muslim temple. Together, and they respect each other and allow each other to have their own faith without any type of negative discord that's going on. And I find that so fascinating. And yet we don't experience that quite as much in the United States.

40:10 And even in some other countries in India. You don't see that in India, his Muslim and Hindu religions are somewhat accepted culturally, but there's if you're a Muslim, there's a lot of pressure if your Hinduism is like the norm. And so there's some Muslims who are persecuted. Certainly the Christians that are there persecuted. And yeah, so. It's interesting when you see those like that coexistence. You know, these are two varied belief systems that probably have a desire to see the people and the other belief system come to believe what they believe, but have somehow figured out a way to have discourse and live side by side.

40:53 That's really interesting. And yet if you get to the initial ancient beliefs of both of those religions, and I done study on this, I've compared Christianity and Buddhism and Hinduism and Islam, and as I get back into that whole area, guess what, they all have common beliefs of goodness and kindness and love, and that then has been altered over time and over history to where now there's a lot of different concepts so long that it's fascinating to me that ultimately, if we got to the true meaning, each of them have a desire to be kind, to love and those type of things, and in their own way a belief in God.

41:37 And they may call him different names and they think him differently, but the reality is there. So we as we close, this has been a thank you so much for being on the show bill, It's been fascinating. What would be a final message you'd like to share with the audience. Oh man, there's so many I'd like to share, but I would say when it if you are in a search for faith, really seek out who God is. Don't go looking for yourself. Don't go looking for answers to your your own questions to uh, you know, the preferences that you you want, you know to be true in your life. Don't look don't don't go looking for a God that's going to bless your life and your lifestyle.

42:20 If you're actually seeking God, look for God, don't look for your don't look for someone who's going to serve you, look for someone that you can serve. Now. I love it film, Thanks so much. So I've appreciated this discussion very much and I think it's fantastic. Folks, I hope you've enjoyed it, and I think for me one of the main points is let's learn to love, Let's learn to accept others and realize that they have their own beliefs. Give them that right. And if you're going to get into discussions, make it one of curiosity, not one of I'm right and you're wrong. So anyway, this is a doctor Doug saying no mistay, a deal too.

43:03 Cher continued and year