Aug. 12, 2024

Smart Conflict

Smart Conflict

Conflict is an everyday occurrence in our lives. The way we handle it can be either productive or destructive.
Kat Newport helps clients both in business and personal life to understand the difference between bad conflict and good, meaningful...

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Conflict is an everyday occurrence in our lives. The way we handle it can be either productive or destructive.
Kat Newport helps clients both in business and personal life to understand the difference between bad conflict and good, meaningful conflict.
And she has a very specific method to help people to develop a way to experience conflict in a way that it improves communication as well as relationships.
https://www.smartconflictbook.com

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling,

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professional service, or any advice.

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You should seek the services.

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Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.

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At the end of the day, it's not about what

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you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what

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you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,

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who you've made better. It's about what you've given back.

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Denzel Washington, welcome to inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is

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to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you

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to do the same.

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Kat Newport, how are you.

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I'm doing really great, Doctor Doug, how are you?

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Welcome to the show, And you know, in so many ways,

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I'm so happy to be back in the US. Like

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it's ten o'clock here or ten thirty and in the morning,

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and normally I'm doing it at six or seven in

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the morning or seven or eight at night, So this

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is great to be to be here.

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Regular daytime hours.

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There you go, yes, amen, So I'm interested. I always

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love the backstory of what brings an individual to the

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point that they're at now where obviously for you you've

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written your book and you can talk a little bit

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about that, but also how you got to the point

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where you're really doing things to make a difference in

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people's lives.

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So I started my corporate career a long time ago,

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like thirty years. I hate saying that, you feel terribly terrible,

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but yeah, I worked in the corporate world for thirty

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years in a leadership capacity. And what I did notice

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when I walked into corporate is relationships are so important

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and trying to figure out how to work with those relationships,

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particularly when there's a whole bunch of different perspectives floating around.

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No we should go this way, No we should go

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that way. And my skill set in this regard was

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not always the best. So over the course of my career,

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trying to figure out how to manage conflict, how to

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manage relationships in a workplace environment, spilled over into writing

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my books More Conflict. I became an accredited coach with

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the International Coaching Federation. I'm a certified change manager. If

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you want some conflict, try to change something in a

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corporate environment. And I work with families as well who

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are working on estate planning and estate management. A lot

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of conflict and choices that have to be made in

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that highly stressful environment. So really wanting to bring peace

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from discord and stepping into that space where I can

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be that conduit.

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Oh fantastic, And certainly in today's world, conflict resolution has

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got to be one of the most important topics we

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could really talk about or learn in so many dynamics.

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I mean, you've got your family dynamics, you have your

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work dynamics, you have your societal dynamics. So why is

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conflict so different and difficult for so many people?

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Oh? Where do we begin? So human beings are social creatures,

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and anything that kind of brings us outside of that

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harmony and that social accord and that social comfort is

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very threatening. The brain kind of takes it is, Oh,

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my gosh, I'm going to be kicked out of the

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group and I'm going to die in the woods and

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get eaten by a bear. Not that that really happens

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very much anymore, but it does trigger that. That's so

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preservation piece in the human in the Human psychep. Number one,

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number two. We've been gathering skills on how to manage

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conflict since we first drew breath, so very very much

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from the moment we entered our families, we've been taught

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how to manage conflict for good or for ill, No

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judgment on my part, but we do have these conflict

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habits that we've built up over time that continually kind

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of play out unless we become aware of them and

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start figuring out which ones are good for us and

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which ones might need a little work to get us

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to where we want to go in our goals. So

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there's a couple of games at play here, okay.

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And so as you say, there's when we talk about

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conflict resolution, many of us have been taught a positive

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way and many of us have been taught a not

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so positive way for conflict resolution, as you say, And

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you know what I find interesting is when you talk

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about conflict it goes to some real depths as far

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as I can understand, because if you say something to

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me that triggers me, then we all of a sudden

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have a conflict. But the question that is even maybe

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more important in my mind is why did I get triggered?

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And do you find do you find that that aspect

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of conflict, as far as really delving into the emotions

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and the emotional reaction to an event or to a

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comment or whatever, plays an important role.

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Love that you brought this forward. It's in Smart Conflict,

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it's in the book. But when we're in a conflict

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moment and we get triggered per se, or something comes

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up for us, or we get that emotional reaction, what

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our brain is actually doing is trying to predict what

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happens next. We are not living in the moment discussing

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our difference of perspective, our difference of opinion. What the

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brain has done is gone, oh my gosh, I've had

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a discussion like this before. This is exactly like that situation,

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and it's never ever going to happen again, So I'm

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going to react in this way that happened before, so

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it doesn't happen again again. It's that self preservation. So

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instead of being present in the moment in control of

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that emotional reaction, we can sometimes get a little carried

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away with the oh my gosh moment of it, that

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triggering piece.

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Well, and you know, I know that there's so many

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dynamics to this whole thing of conflict because you've got

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the emotional response, which I think is big. Another thing

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that I have always, you know, really found very fascinating

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and somewhat humorous but actually very true, is that there's

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somewhere within us where we have to be right. So

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you know, if you say something to me and I

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immediately let those emotions come up, and I get triggered,

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and now I'm going to give you my opinion, and

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quite frankly, you know what, I am always right and therefore,

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and you know, potentially you're gonna if it's not you,

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you know you're going to go, well, here's my emotional reaction,

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and I'm always right, and all of a sudden you

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have this huge conflict.

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Absolutely absolutely, conflict is relational. So where there are two people,

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there will be conflict, and it's important to keep focus

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on that relationship. So if you must be right and

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I must be right, we're not focused on the relationship.

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If you're going to be right at all costs, what

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is that exactly going to cost you? What does the

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relationship with me look like after you've put your flag

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in the sand and said, I am right, and I

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am not moving. What does the future for us look like?

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So when in conflict, be very aware of that relationship,

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be it in a family dynamic, your partner, your children, whatever,

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or in a workplace environment. If you've got to work

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with Sally from accounting for the next however long you're

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with this company, you probably want to put some investment

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in that relationship. So it's not always a prickly relationship.

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Well and you mentioned yeah, and that's true, And I

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think you know what I what I found is I've

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you know, coached different smaller companies. One of the first

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things I would say is what we're going to teach

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you here from a standpoint a model of management and

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success is so applicable in your personal life. And sometimes

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we went back and forth because obviously personal life affects

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business and business effects personal But as you talk about

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as you talk about family, for instance, what do you

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what do you find is the greatest cause of conflict

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within a family. And we can talk about the couple themselves,

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you know, the significant other and the married couple, and

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then we can talk about the children and the children

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conflict within themselves, and then the conflict between the parents

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and the child. There's three questions.

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Well, you just stuck it them right over here. Okay,

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I think very much the answer You've already put it

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into our conversation. If I have to be right with

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my partner all the time, that's going to cause conflicts.

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I'm your mother, and I said, so there's there's that

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power dynamic again, there's conflict. I'm not engaging with the

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relationship with my child. Why is it you want to

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have peanut butter and jelly sandwich at ten o'clock at night,

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Now that you've woken up, you know there's no engagement

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at that point in that relationship. It's I'm in the

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I'm in the seat of authority, and you're going to

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do what I tell you. I think when I'm looking

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at these social medias and you see the little videos,

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I'm going to go start a fight with my partner

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because I'm bored. Just drives me right up the wall.

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Conflict has a purpose. It brings us together. It helps

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us think outside the box because we're looking at different

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perspectives and moves us towards the future. So really understanding

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that and the purpose of conflict is not to beat

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the other one down, is not to put the other

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one in a box, is not to control the situation,

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but it's to grow and move and expand it really

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takes some of the sting of the word conflict in

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of itself.

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Well, and you make an interesting point. There are two

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different types of conflict. There's a healthy conflict and there's

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an unhealthy conflict. And if I'm understanding you correctly, that

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unhealthy conflict is when the emotions come in and I'm

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right and you're wrong, and all of that goes on,

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whereas if a conflict, quote a conflict, which is a

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healthy one comes up and you're right. The word conflict

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always has a negative connotation here, but as you're talking

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about the positive connotation that if you and I have

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a conflict, and if we're open to understanding why you're

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thinking this way, and you're open to my thoughts and

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we have that communication. I have found in many instances

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is all of a sudden, if I'm sitting and really

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listening and not always constantly trying to think what I'm

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going to say next, which is the negative conflict, I

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find that I gain some really important and valuable points

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that I hadn't thought of before.

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Absolutely absolutely. When I'm working with organizations, I always bring

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in that let's think outside the box mentality. It's really

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hard to think outside the box when the only perspective

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you're willing to look at is your own. You're really

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tight in that box. Thinking outside the box requires the

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entertainment of other perspectives, of alternate solutions, and the best

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way to do that is actively listen and have that

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communication with the people around you. And this happens at

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home as well. You know, when you're with your partner,

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where are we going to go on vacation? Well? I

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want to go to Cancirn. Well I want to go

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to Alaska. You know, how does this work? Trying to

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figure out what's best for the entire group? That relationship

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piece super important.

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Well, and you're kind of talking about it now, But

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I guess the next question I have is how do

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you go how do you go from that unhealthy conflict

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type of thing to a healthy one, and how do

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you do that as an individual? Because again, as we

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talked about this, this is family, this is work, this

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is societal. How does an individual get to the point

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where they can go from unhealthy conflict to healthy conflict

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number one, and I'm going to go to a baser

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question before that. Okay, how do we deal with helping

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an individual to realize that they are constantly creating a

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healthy conflict for them? And then if they can finally

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identify that, then how do they go to a healthy conflict?

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When looking at conflict, the reflection should always start with self,

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look at what you're bringing into the situation. The Smart

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Conflict is the title of the book is actually based

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off a workshop where smart is an acronym that helps

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you sort of unpack the unhealthy part of conflict and

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restructure it into more healthy conflict. And you start at

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the esk, which is really understanding the situation. I've been

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in this kind of environment before, where we're having this

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this very heated discussion. Let's put am very heated discussion,

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and we are talking about two totally different things, and

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we don't quite realize that till we're about halfway through, going, oh,

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wait a minute, wait a second, we have two different

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things going on here, or possibly more so, really understanding

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the core of the situation. What are you in conflict about?

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What has got your emotions so fired up? Because it's

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not necessarily your partner leaving the cap off the toothpaste tube.

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That's got you all fired up. This is the straw

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that broke the camel's back. There's something else that's going on.

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People don't get divorced over toothpaste. People get divorced over

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a lack of consideration, a lack of understanding, a lack

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of engagement, and a deterioration of a relationship. The toothpaste

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top is just a symptom. So it's really important to

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understand what you're actually in conflict about, and that requires

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self reflection before engaging with the other person.

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Okay, so that's the s I'm going to take it

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through the m.

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Now am measured emotions. It's not the responsibility of someone

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else to make you feel better in this situation. Your

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emotions are your responsibility, understanding that the other person and

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the environment all play a role in those emotions, but

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what you choose to emote and what you choose to

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bring into the situation is your responsibility. So taking a pause,

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giving yourself some space and time to really understand why

253
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you're having the emotional reaction you are will help you

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move forward into the conflict without looking for emotional solace

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from the other person.

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Okay, and we'll get back to all of these, but

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I appreciate you you just the short description there, the a.

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A having an agenda and not the underhanded, nefarious kind

259
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of agenda amending agenda. Sometimes when we get into conflict,

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we don't know what we want out of it. We're

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just in conflict. For you, the emotional relief, whatever it is.

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Knowing where you're going and what you want out of

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this conversation, this conflict conversation is super important. So go

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in with that agenda and share that agenda with your

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conflict partner.

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Okay, all right, and then they are I'm writing these down.

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I really like them.

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R is the relationship. This is the key. I focus

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on the relationship.

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Okay, and that you want to have it.

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You want to have a relationship, not necessarily. I mean,

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this conflict could be the end of our relationship, doctor

273
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jog you know, could be the end. This is where

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that agenda comes into play. If you're breaking up with someone,

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for example, you're you're terminating an employment contract, or you're

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you're moving towards a divorce, you know that relationship is

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going to end, so it doesn't necessarily have to mean

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that you're building the relationship or investing in it. It

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could be how do you want to consciously move away

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from this relationship?

281
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Okay, So it's really focusing on the relationship and what's

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the goal?

283
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Correct? Okay, good? And then the tea.

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Time and place. You don't have to have the conflict

285
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right now. It's like, you really want to talk to

286
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your boss about what happened in the meeting, but they're

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running out the door to a client meeting. That's probably

288
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not the best time to have a conflict conversation with

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your boss. It's not going to go well. So pick

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the time, pick the place to get the best possible outcome.

291
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All right, So let's let's talk about getting on a

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more personal basis. You know, we have a conflict. We're

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we're working somewhere together and somehow something comes up where

294
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I'm trying to go this way, You're trying to go

295
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that way. We're in a situation where we have to

296
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work together. How do we how do we deal with

297
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that in a in a highly positive way to take

298
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that conflict away from a negative conflict to a positive

299
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conflict that comes up with some positive results.

300
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Right, This is where the first three come into play.

301
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What is the situation? What are we in conflict over?

302
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Is it because we want to do the same thing

303
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in two different ways? And if so, we need to

304
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take a look at that. Let's think outside the box.

305
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What's your idea, what's my idea? And we may come

306
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up with you hat a third idea together. So really

307
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understand what the situation is, and when we're in a

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workplace in that situation also includes what the organizational goals are.

309
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If you want to do something one way, I want

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to do something another way, but the organization wants something else,

311
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We're both going to be in a bit of sticky situation.

312
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So there's a third player when we're dealing with that emotions. Yes,

313
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I might be annoyed with you, but I do have

314
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to work with you for however long both of us

315
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remain with this organization. So I really need to take

316
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a look at it. Yes, I'm frustrated, But does that

317
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mean I have to walk into a room, pound my

318
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fist on the table, shake my finger at you, and

319
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call you names. No, it does not. It might make

320
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me feel better in the moment, but in the long term,

321
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when I'm sitting in front of hr might not be

322
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the best off. They're really understanding and addressing your own

323
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emotions and then really understanding the agenda. Where are we

324
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going with this conflict? You want to do it one way,

325
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I want to do it another way. But what are

326
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we trying to do. We're trying to service the client,

327
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So what does a client need and how do we

328
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do that? So really have that open agenda where do

329
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we want to be at the end of it? So

330
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the first three really come in important here. Understanding relationship

331
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and time and place are also floating in the background,

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but those first three are super important at the workplace.

333
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Well, and it sounds to me like you're really talking

334
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a lot about communication. And I don't know how well

335
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we've been brought up or taught. I can't think of

336
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a class in grade school or middle school, or high

337
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school or even college about communication. Now. When I went

338
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back for my certification with business Consulting, while we did

339
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a whole thing on communication. But you know, it seems

340
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like most people have never really been taught, quote the

341
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real art of communication.

342
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What are your thoughts about that?

343
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And you have a way to explain how to communicate

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in a way to eliminate those negative complex.

345
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It can occur.

346
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Absolutely, I completely and totally agree with the observ me.

347
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Where I kind of want to start with this is

348
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the universe gave us two ears in one mouth. We

349
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should be listening twice as much as we talk, really

350
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sitting down and engaging with the other person and hitting

351
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pause on all the conversation killers that kind of float

352
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around in our head. Judgment, Gee, that was a stupid idea.

353
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Judgment kind of floats around in there pretty hard that

354
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one couples with bias building a rebuttal in my head

355
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is like, oh, yeah, he said something right at the

356
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beginning that I really want to talk about, and I'm

357
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not really listening to the rest of it because I'm

358
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stuck on that moment that I really want to come

359
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back at you with, yeah, being distracted. I cannot tell

360
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you how many meetings I've been in where people are

361
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on their phone and then go, gee, I missed that.

362
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Can you repeat that? There's no act of listening here.

363
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So these are some of those conversation killers that come

364
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up that really derail our communication. And all of these

365
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are actually listening side of the communication, because when we talk,

366
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a lot of us are really good at it. The

367
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listening part. A lot of us are really bad.

368
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At it well.

369
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And you know what comes to my mind is, as

370
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you know, I've been out of the country for a

371
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number of months and over in.

372
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Thailand, and I do not speak Thai. I just don't.

373
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And so as I'm working with friends and talking and

374
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communicating and if they don't speak English, is like we

375
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start to use Google Translate. And what's fascinating is that

376
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I can tell you that the words that they use

377
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in Thai, that when it comes out in English sometimes

378
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can be really confusing and sometimes a little bit offensive.

379
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And so what I found is I had to type

380
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back and say I'm not sure I understood, rather than

381
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immediately taking defense emotionally at what was said, and oftentimes

382
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going through that two to three times, all of a sudden,

383
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:15.920
what they're really saying comes out and now I understand.

384
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And how true is that of our normal experience, where

385
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you know, we're all speaking the same language and we

386
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never take the time to ask.

387
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And explain what they really mean.

388
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Very much, So I love that you've brought this out.

389
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The making of assumptions that your definition of a certain

390
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word or a certain phrase or a certain idea would

391
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be the same as mine. I mean, we're both speaking English,

392
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but we're from two different countries, so my cultural reference

393
00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:51.680
is going to be different than yours, so we immediately

394
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:56.000
have a bit of a disconnect. So what you're talking

395
00:22:56.039 --> 00:22:58.880
about is to my mind, and what I'm hearing you

396
00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:04.079
say is respond with curiosity. So ask what you mean,

397
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Ask the definition of some terms, so that you really

398
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understand what's coming across, as opposed to making the assumptions

399
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:14.440
that they meant to be offensive. Oh, they meant to

400
00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:17.440
be hurtful. What did you mean by that? I'm not

401
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:22.200
quite sure. I understand. These are wonderful questions to help

402
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:25.640
you not jump into judgment, bias and assumption.

403
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:28.519
Well, and you know, in the entry, as you said,

404
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:32.000
the focus has to be on the other individual, and

405
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:35.440
I don't know that that really ever exists as much

406
00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:38.960
as it should, Whereas you know, as people start to

407
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:42.599
talk and communicate, the focus really needs to be on

408
00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:46.079
the individual. What are they saying. I'm not going to

409
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:47.920
judge from what you were saying. I'm not going to

410
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:50.319
judge what they're saying, but I want to be curious

411
00:23:50.359 --> 00:23:54.039
and ask more questions so that I really understand before

412
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:57.319
responding and we all have this habit of one and

413
00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:00.359
response so quick much so.

414
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And this is what I see in the workplace is

415
00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:07.640
because we have five generations working in the workplace now

416
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:12.839
existing in the workplace, there are very different expectations on

417
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:21.720
communication and making assumptions is very very common at this point. Well,

418
00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:25.400
this is the way I've communicated my entire career, and

419
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:27.839
now we're dealing with someone who's brand new in their career,

420
00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:32.279
who's been brought up in a different societal structure, that

421
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:35.400
just a different perspective. I mean, every generation has it,

422
00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:39.359
so it really becomes important that even if you're in

423
00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:41.799
the same workplace, in the same city, in the same

424
00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:46.079
time zone, that we do have to respond with curiosity

425
00:24:46.119 --> 00:24:49.480
because each and every individual's experience is unique.

426
00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:54.359
Yeah, and you know what you just said, Well, I

427
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:58.880
found really interesting is you know, we use words to

428
00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:05.720
communicate eight but the reality is that the meaning behind

429
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:08.200
those words is individualized.

430
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.559
Yes, very much so. And in a workplace that means

431
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:17.599
if you are a leader or either formal or informal,

432
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:21.599
the focus now has to go from command and control

433
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:27.440
into empathetic leadership. You are there to support folks to

434
00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:31.680
do the job and get the best possible performance as

435
00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:36.519
opposed to just do the job, get it done. We

436
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:38.400
have to bring in that humanity.

437
00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:39.359
Yeah.

438
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:42.400
And you know, as we talk about communication, there's really

439
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:47.039
three elements of communication, because there's the words, there's the

440
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:51.279
body language, and then there's the tonality that goes on.

441
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:54.160
Are you familiar with those three? I am.

442
00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:57.839
Indeed, the book actually has chapters on each of these.

443
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:01.920
Okay, explain it a little bit. Then I take some

444
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:04.319
time and explain it because I think it's really important

445
00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:07.039
for people to understand when they're trying to figure out

446
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:08.160
how to communicate better.

447
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:16.920
Absolutely so, when we're communicating the words we want to say,

448
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:19.160
we spend a lot of time trying to figure this out.

449
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:21.839
How do I say this so they don't take offense?

450
00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:24.160
How do I say this so that they don't get upset.

451
00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:28.559
You can have the best possible phrasing, but if you're

452
00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:32.440
delivering it with a facial expression that could freeze stone,

453
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:38.279
it's ever going to come across well. If you're nervous

454
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:41.440
and that's coming out in your body language, be it twitching,

455
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:45.200
be it clicking your pen, be it whatever, it's not

456
00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:49.079
going to come across well. So making sure that you

457
00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:53.200
have synchronicity between what you want to say, so the

458
00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:59.839
actual words, your facial expressions, your body language, so how

459
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:03.039
you're moving your hands, what kind of eye contact are

460
00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:06.720
you making, How are you standing? What's your foot placement? Like,

461
00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:09.839
are your hands on your hips? Are they crossed over

462
00:27:09.880 --> 00:27:13.519
your chest? All of these give different messages. And then

463
00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:17.920
of course there's cadence and tonality of your voice. If

464
00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:20.680
you speak really really quickly, you sound less confident. You

465
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:24.960
sound nervous. If you're too slow, you sound unconfident. If

466
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:28.279
you're picking your words or pausing too much, if you're

467
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:31.440
squeaky and high, if you're deep and low. All of

468
00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:34.519
these change the meaning of the words, even if the

469
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:38.400
words are the exact same said with a different tonality

470
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:42.200
or a different facial expression. It's a really a package

471
00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:46.319
deal when you're coming into communication, which is why when

472
00:27:46.359 --> 00:27:48.039
we hit COVID and we all of a sudden went

473
00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:51.559
onto screens, we're losing like eighty percent of the body

474
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:56.440
language here you got me from like collarbones up, so

475
00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.759
you're losing a lot of that communication. The rest of

476
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:04.880
it becomes even more important. What's Kat's tone, like, how's

477
00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:08.480
her eye contact? Is she looking at the camera. I

478
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:10.880
do flail around a lot. I'm a hand talker, so

479
00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:14.039
it kind of helps. But she's so so all of

480
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:16.079
these things have to work together to get that message

481
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:17.960
across in the best possible way.

482
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:22.319
Well, and as you're coaching people, can you can you

483
00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:25.319
share a story without you know, making it personal? Can

484
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:29.440
you share a story where that conflict method, the smart

485
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:32.839
conflict mytho that has actually changed the outcome for someone?

486
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:38.400
So let's see, I've got a couple so I trying

487
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:43.759
to figure this out. The story that kind of comes

488
00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:49.359
to mind here is working with an individual. I was

489
00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:51.880
working in HR at the time, so human resources at

490
00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:56.920
the time, and they had an issue with a colleague

491
00:28:58.200 --> 00:29:01.559
and they just were not getting along. Just just cats

492
00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:06.440
and dogs, not good good. So they had come in

493
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:08.519
to me to say, look, I can't work with this

494
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:14.279
individual anywhere. We took some time together and we really

495
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:18.440
started to unpack what's the situation? So what is it

496
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:23.240
that that's really not working. In the beginning of that conversation,

497
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:25.160
it was really well, they do this, and they are this,

498
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:29.279
and they do they they they they they all the

499
00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:33.640
things that they were doing wrong. And as we talk

500
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.240
that slowly moved back so what part are you playing

501
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.319
in this communication link? So how are you engaging with

502
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:44.319
this individual? And we started getting that self reflection piece.

503
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:49.799
So instead of demanding that they either be transferred to

504
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:52.559
another work location or that the other person be fired,

505
00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:57.119
which is what they came in asking for, what ended

506
00:29:57.200 --> 00:29:59.640
up happening is we ended up making a plan and

507
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:03.400
a gen that had them go back into the workplace

508
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:06.599
and just change some minor ways they were interacting with

509
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:10.279
this individual. Instead of leaving notes on the desktop, you know,

510
00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:12.240
really clean the desk off, you know, you really got

511
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:13.799
to do this. You've got to do that, don't forget

512
00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:18.079
to do this, they actually started engaging verbally with this individuals,

513
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:21.559
using eye statements, using you know, this is what we're

514
00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:24.200
trying to accomplish. How can I help you get there?

515
00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:28.319
And this really started changing that relationship. They never loved

516
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:30.759
each other, they were never best friends, they never went

517
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:36.079
out for drinks. You know, they did take the pressure

518
00:30:36.200 --> 00:30:40.079
down in that relationship so that they could work together

519
00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:44.160
every day without demanding the other be fired.

520
00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:48.960
Well, you know, it's interesting.

521
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:54.559
I have four kids and experiencing the way I talked

522
00:30:54.599 --> 00:31:00.200
to them and how that affects them is so interesting because, well,

523
00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:04.160
you know, I'm a high strong personality. I don't know

524
00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:06.240
if you're familiar with the DISC, the D, I, S C,

525
00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:11.519
but you know I'm a high D. And so I've

526
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:13.839
learned that I can come across offer my opinion, so

527
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:16.960
on and so forth, and come across strong, assertive and

528
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:21.000
so forth. Whereas you have the you know, and that's

529
00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:23.000
left brain, you have the right brain people who are

530
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:25.680
more empathetic, who you know, really want to understand and

531
00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:26.160
so forth.

532
00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:31.200
How do you balance that out? How does an individual.

533
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:35.680
That's really just has that natural strong personality literally learn

534
00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:38.960
how to balance that out and bring in some empathy

535
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:42.559
and understanding that they're usually probably not used to doing.

536
00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:47.119
I love these self assessments because they help with that

537
00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:51.759
self reflection. I've also seen these assessments go very very

538
00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:57.200
wrong going into a workplace doing the assessments. Well, I'm

539
00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:59.279
a D, which means you've got to act and talk

540
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:01.119
to me like I'm a D. And you've got to

541
00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:03.319
deal with it because I'm a D even though you're

542
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:06.200
an I. I don't care. You know, I'm a DC.

543
00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:08.200
You've got to deal with me this way. So be

544
00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:13.079
very careful when putting that label on for starters. This

545
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:16.119
is about self awareness and how you then interact with

546
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:21.599
other folks. So this is I can be solution oriented.

547
00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:28.240
I can be very quick with providing my opinion. So

548
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:33.279
if you know these things, ask what's your opinion before

549
00:32:33.319 --> 00:32:37.440
you give yours? Open it up to the table or

550
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:40.079
in this case, your children before you say, this is

551
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:45.799
my opinion. So if you know what your your hiccups are,

552
00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:50.000
you can start planning on working around those hiccups. Well,

553
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:52.720
I'm very directive. I'm just going to give directions and

554
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:54.400
everybody's going to do it because this is the best

555
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:59.039
way to do it. I'm also a D. The way

556
00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:03.960
to do it it's taking a moment and saying how

557
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:07.480
would you do this? How do you want to move

558
00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:11.839
forward with this? And then being okay with being uncomfortable

559
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:17.200
with the moment going m I wouldn't do it that way,

560
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:19.720
but we can try.

561
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:26.279
Here we go, Well, I'm a DC, so I have

562
00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:28.880
learned in fact, and you brought it up. I did

563
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:31.240
you know what I do is I finally sat down

564
00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:34.359
with my kids when I physically figured this out, and

565
00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:37.519
as they start talking to me, I'll always ask the question,

566
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:39.880
do you want me to listen or do you want

567
00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:43.160
my opinion? And a lot of the times I just

568
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:45.200
want you to listen, I don't want your opinion, and

569
00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:47.880
other times it's like, no doubt, I'm really I want

570
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:50.799
your opinion. I'm really questioning that. So I think a

571
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:54.519
question like that makes such a big difference in being

572
00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:56.480
able to do that. Now you talk about you know,

573
00:33:56.759 --> 00:33:59.640
the evaluations, and I love it. I actually did one

574
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.599
a few years ago, went into become a small company

575
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:05.839
with about four or five employees. They were having some conflicts.

576
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:08.239
And what I did, and so that's how I use

577
00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:11.519
the profile a bit is we sat down and we

578
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:14.960
discussed each of the meanings of the personalities, how they

579
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:20.840
normally communicate, how that can be difficult for someone who

580
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:23.400
is a different personality style, and how they want to

581
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:27.079
be communicated with. And all of a sudden, changing it

582
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:27.760
from Ara.

583
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:28.519
You're dealing with a D.

584
00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:31.880
They if they forget and they start coming across hard,

585
00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:34.440
just sit back and smile and going, hey, you know

586
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.199
what your d's coming out, But let's talk about this

587
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:40.360
in a more empathetic way. And what I found is

588
00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:43.920
if they can understand that without having the ego of this,

589
00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:47.360
I'm that it really makes a difference. And also understanding

590
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:50.519
that you can change a lot of that, particularly within

591
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:52.159
the societal range.

592
00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:57.719
Very much so. Just because you're labeled something like the IENTTJ.

593
00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:02.000
Of the Myers Briggs guilty. You know, just because you've

594
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:04.719
been labeled, that doesn't mean you cannot change. That's the

595
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:08.239
great part of the human existence. Once you become aware

596
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:12.039
of something, you have the free will to change how

597
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:17.719
you interact if you want to. You know, so really

598
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:21.039
understanding that that relationship piece again we're back to that

599
00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:24.679
are what does that relationship need to look like? Yes,

600
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:27.679
you have habits. I have habits. Everybody has habits. How

601
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:30.880
do I react when one of those habits comes out?

602
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:36.199
That curiosity, that empathy and seeing the other person as

603
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:40.280
precisely that a person as opposed to this is my

604
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:45.159
child or this is the annoying person From accounting, it

605
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:49.559
becomes very very different on how you reinteract.

606
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:52.960
Yes, yes, and how do we do this when we

607
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:57.920
go into the larger conversation of society. I mean, right now,

608
00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:00.920
we have got so much conflict going on. You you

609
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:04.239
go to you know, whatever news you happen to listen to.

610
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:07.039
If you go to the other news, you're gonna you know.

611
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.480
And even when you hear all of this conflict, you

612
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:12.599
go to you go to TikTok, and oh, my goodness,

613
00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:17.119
I'm amazed at the conflict that is there, that they

614
00:36:17.239 --> 00:36:18.000
and no one's there.

615
00:36:18.039 --> 00:36:19.880
They just talk about and talk about it.

616
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:22.840
How do we how do we bring about a sense

617
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:28.559
of greater peace and greater communication within the larger field,

618
00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:32.079
because right now I think it's destroying our country.

619
00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:36.599
So not my area of expertise. So when we're looking

620
00:36:36.679 --> 00:36:40.239
at societal conflict, when we're looking at international conflicts, we're

621
00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:44.719
looking at high conflict, it's important and the person that

622
00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:47.039
comes to mind for me, it's important to understand that

623
00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:50.440
there is only one person on this planet you can control.

624
00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:55.880
And if you've ever had teenagers, you know it's not them. Yes,

625
00:36:56.440 --> 00:36:59.360
there's only one person you can control, and that is yourself.

626
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:04.199
So my question is is what assumptions are you making

627
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:08.840
when you engage in the wider societal conflict? What assumptions

628
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:13.679
are you making when you choose to look at TikTok,

629
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:17.320
when you choose to look at CNN or Al Jazeera,

630
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:24.199
You make these choices to consume the content. Yes, we're

631
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:27.840
being bombarded with it. But nobody asked you to open Instagram.

632
00:37:28.159 --> 00:37:31.360
You choose to do that. You choose what shows up

633
00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:36.239
on that feed. So really understanding what messages you're choosing

634
00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:39.679
to consume and then how you choose to react with

635
00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:44.360
the wider world I think makes a huge impact.

636
00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:47.159
Here well, And as you talk about I think this

637
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:51.360
is important as we talk about what we consume, whether

638
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:55.719
it's TV shows or TikTok or any kind of social media,

639
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:03.679
how does that affect our ability to have a healthy

640
00:38:03.719 --> 00:38:06.639
conflict discussion versus an the healthy one.

641
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:12.480
Welcome to bias. I love algorithms. Algorithms give you what

642
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:15.039
you look at. They give you what you want. So

643
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:20.320
if you're looking for pro Palestinian or pro Israeli, or

644
00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:24.119
you're looking for BLM or you know, it gives you

645
00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:29.719
more content that you consume, Welcome to confirmation bias. If

646
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:33.800
all you're looking at is one type of feed that's

647
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:38.679
pro this political party or pro whatever, that's the only

648
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:43.199
information you're consuming. The question then is is what's the

649
00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:46.599
other side of that conflict? What are the other sides

650
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:50.760
of that conflict? What are the other opinions? We very

651
00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:55.440
rarely will actively go out and look at the other opinions.

652
00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:00.440
We get stuck in looking at things that make us comfortable.

653
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:03.920
I follow this political party, Therefore, I believe that this

654
00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:06.079
political party is putting out and I only really want

655
00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:08.159
to hear the message of my political party, and I

656
00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:10.119
don't want to hear anything from any of the others.

657
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:15.639
La la la la la. But they will have different ideas,

658
00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:19.239
they will have things that could potentially have solutions. So

659
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:23.280
it's really important to get that balanced piece and don't

660
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:28.519
get so locked into that one perspective. Keep more of

661
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:31.960
an open mind. And the algorithms do not help with that.

662
00:39:32.440 --> 00:39:35.519
The more one thing, that's all you're going to get.

663
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:36.199
Well.

664
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:39.440
And I'm reminded of a study here, a report that

665
00:39:39.480 --> 00:39:44.440
I saw about, you know, one of the particular situations

666
00:39:44.440 --> 00:39:48.400
that has come up in the news about people objecting

667
00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:54.719
to whatever, and they showed that after they researched it out,

668
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:57.480
arrested a number of people, they figured out that thirty

669
00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:02.559
to forty percent of that group. We're active agitators that

670
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:06.159
go from place to place to place and create that

671
00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:09.800
agitation and then get the people around them to be

672
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:12.639
affected by that to the point where they become part

673
00:40:12.679 --> 00:40:15.679
of it. Also, when in fact that may not be

674
00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:20.320
necessarily their original purpose or personality, but someone can affect

675
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:24.280
another individual to become agitative even though they may not be.

676
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:29.880
Welcome to mob mentality. I have a long history in

677
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:33.519
security management, so in personal security, that kind of thing,

678
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:36.719
and when we're dealing with crowds and that kind of thing,

679
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:40.639
this does come to the forefront that when you're in

680
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:43.239
a social group, and you have the anonymity of the

681
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:46.000
social group, and you have the support of the social

682
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:49.159
group in a particular direction, you're more likely to go

683
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:53.920
against your personal belief system. You're more likely to engage

684
00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:57.599
in behavior that you wouldn't typically have engaged in before.

685
00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:00.760
And we can see this with the Riots. After my

686
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:03.679
favorite hockey team loses a game.

687
00:41:04.119 --> 00:41:05.119
Yeah, and I.

688
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:09.119
Wouldn't normally go around breaking storefronts, but today I did

689
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:14.360
because of that mom mentality that I'm an anonymous piece

690
00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:19.920
of a group. So it is very much a psychological thing,

691
00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:22.119
and there's a lot of folks out there who've done

692
00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:23.000
a lot of studies on that.

693
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:26.519
So yeah, well, and as we get to the rit cause,

694
00:41:26.559 --> 00:41:29.880
and that's something I really believe. It doesn't happen all

695
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:32.400
of the time, and yet I think it's so essential

696
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:34.960
as we get to the rit cause of these things,

697
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:38.360
how does an individual who may be caught up in

698
00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:40.880
those type of things, how do we get to the

699
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:45.639
point where we can become that person that when someone

700
00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:48.760
starts to try to instigate this, we just smile and say,

701
00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:52.599
you know what, no, thank you. When someone says something

702
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:57.519
that initially we could take really seriously offensively, we can

703
00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:01.079
sit back and just smile and again ask the question,

704
00:42:01.159 --> 00:42:04.480
I'm not sure I really understand. Can you explain this

705
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:06.760
a little bit further so I can understand better?

706
00:42:07.039 --> 00:42:08.840
How do these individuals do that?

707
00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:13.119
There's a couple of things that come to mind. One

708
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:17.119
is that emotional piece. You can self solace. You don't

709
00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:20.320
have to react to feel better. You can sit in

710
00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:25.519
the discomfort, and that does take practice. The other piece

711
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:30.760
that comes to mind here is really understanding your personal values.

712
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:34.320
I work with a lot of clients and this is

713
00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:38.280
usually something that comes up fairly early in the coaching relationship.

714
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:42.480
What are your personal values? And I'd say eight times

715
00:42:42.519 --> 00:42:44.599
out of ten I get somebody staring at me kind

716
00:42:44.599 --> 00:42:46.719
of blank, going what do you mean? Like?

717
00:42:46.840 --> 00:42:46.920
No?

718
00:42:46.840 --> 00:42:48.880
No? Like your values? How do you live your life?

719
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:50.960
How do you engage with people. Where do you want

720
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:54.079
to go? You know, what are your personal values? And

721
00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:59.480
unless you're really thinking about those personal values and understand

722
00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:02.639
how you want to live those personal values, it's very

723
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:04.800
easy to get pulled off to the side of the

724
00:43:04.840 --> 00:43:11.280
track by someone else's firmly held personal values. So I

725
00:43:11.320 --> 00:43:14.639
would recommend and take pen to paper and do that

726
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:17.159
journaling and really, how do I live? What do I

727
00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:20.599
believe in? What are my values? A lot a lot

728
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:21.679
of us have done.

729
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:25.320
That well, and a lot of times initially we will

730
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:29.039
discover the quote our values or the values of the parents,

731
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:33.800
the teachers, the religion, whatever, and when we really look

732
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:36.280
at it, we realize that, no, We've got to figure

733
00:43:36.280 --> 00:43:40.000
out what truly are my values. And I think that

734
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:43.239
that makes a big difference. So as we come to close, Kat,

735
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:47.920
I'm just curious as to a message that you would

736
00:43:48.039 --> 00:43:51.840
like to share with the audience that you think would

737
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:53.440
be important for them to understand.

738
00:43:55.360 --> 00:44:01.440
Conflict is not inherently bad. Conflict as the potential to

739
00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:06.599
generate growth if you're open and willing to engage with

740
00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:07.679
other folks.

741
00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:13.920
Okay, thank you, Kat, this has been interesting. This must

742
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:16.360
be a fascinating thing that you do as far as

743
00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:20.159
conflict goes and trying to help people to resolve that,

744
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:23.239
that's got to be fascinating very much.

745
00:44:23.079 --> 00:44:26.480
So, and I've learned a lot a lot over the

746
00:44:26.599 --> 00:44:30.599
years that have helped drive my own personal values. So yeah,

747
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:32.400
it's definitely a passion project for me.

748
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:37.880
Well, and how do people find your How do people

749
00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:43.039
find your book? And how do people find your website?

750
00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:46.320
The easiest place to get a hold of me is

751
00:44:46.360 --> 00:44:51.079
triplewsmartconflictbook dot com, or you can connect or follow me

752
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:53.880
on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active on there, so if you

753
00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:57.000
want some more tips and hints and insights, it's all

754
00:44:57.039 --> 00:44:58.039
on the LinkedIn.

755
00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:02.920
And is smart Book on Amazon also and those different locations.

756
00:45:03.400 --> 00:45:06.760
Absolutely, you can get Smart Conflict from Amazon in paperback,

757
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:07.960
hardcover or on Kindle.

758
00:45:08.920 --> 00:45:12.440
And if I'm an individual rather than a business situation,

759
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:16.760
am I going to gain a lot from a focus

760
00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:19.920
on an individual versus a business?

761
00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:23.519
Very much so? The book talks about that relationship piece

762
00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:27.559
in context, So how do I look at myself, how

763
00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:30.880
do I look at conflict? And how does that manifest

764
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:33.480
whether I'm at home or at work? So it is

765
00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:35.360
definitely written for a wide audience.

766
00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:39.000
Great, Well, Kat thanks so much, and folks, thanks for listening.

767
00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:41.840
Hope you enjoyed this, and please get a hold of

768
00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:43.639
the book take a look out. I think you'll find

769
00:45:43.719 --> 00:45:47.480
some really fascinating stuff. So this is doctor Doug saying

770
00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:51.159
Nama stay