School Climate and Culture - Time to End Bullying

0:01 This program is designed to provide general information with regards to the subject matters covered. This information is given with the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas. At the end of the day, it's not about what you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up, who you've made better. It's about what you've given back. Denzel Washington, welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you to do the same. Clitis, how are you doing, h I am doing fantastic. It's really great to have you on the show. I'm really excited about what we're going to talk about today.

1:04 It's very interesting. As you know, I'm in Thailand right now, and I actually it's fascinating. I have a friend that has been listening to the broadcasts and shared with me that her son was being bullied. Eight year old son was being bullied in school because he was speaking English and no one else did. And not only was he bullied by his peers, but the teacher was actually bullying him. And I thought, you know what, this is going to be a great conversation to have on the show. So I really appreciate you being on the show. What I'd love for you to do for the audience is share who you are and how you kind of got to the point where you're doing what you're doing well. In two thousand and two, I was the successful bidder on a contract to evaluate every school district in the state of West Virginia. And it took me almost a year to travel from district to district in every school district in the state of West Virginia, and I interviewed thousands of students and teachers, and I also collected data on character education, twenty eight character traits their behavior, and on eleven indicators of school culture and climate. And out of that had I collected, I said, Wow, I know so much about what goes on in schools that I

2:39 need to write a book now. Before I got this contract, I've been a starting in nineteen sixty four, I started as a German history teacher and Cincinnati, Ohio, and graduated through the ranks from assistant principle through assistant school superintendent to superintendent, and along the way got a doctorate degree in social psychology. Social psychology is an interesting feel because it's the study of how individuals behave in groups. Psychology is the study of individuals, Sociology is the study of groups. Well, how an individual behaves in groups is social psychology. Now, with that background and as a kid being bullied, I was five to four and weighed one hundred and twenty five pounds when I graduated from high school, I was a little kid. Six months later a weigh one hundred and forty five and I'm five to eight. If only I could have been a senior at that age, I would have then left alone. But because I was the littlest kid in class, every Tom, Dick and Harry, beginning with the Freshmans, thought they could beat up on me. In my case, it made me tough. In many cases, being bullied does not make you tough. It makes you do things to cope with being bullied. And

4:14 that's how I got into bullying behavior and the things we're going to talk about Mark. I think I've been for the past in two thousand, in two thousand and three, let's see, in nineteen ninety three, I retired as a school superintendent. That went into being a college professor, and that's how I got the background to become an evaluator of State Department the State Character Initiative in West Virginia and got that contract. I've done bullying behavior. I've got nationwide data collected on bullying behavior in schools. And let's see Newark, New Jersey, California Boy Scouts where I've collected data. With that, I've worked with a national expert on bullying behavior called doctor Alan Bean. He's got his program that he's worked with. That's pretty much my background, all right.

5:21 And you know, it's so interesting. You mentioned so many different areas. You talk about school, You talked about the Boy Scouts, and that really strikes a nerve with me because I have one son. I have to be very careful about this because this is going to be broadcast, but I have one son that literally was bullied by his leader. And I'm not sure that they would admit that, but it was the case. And so my question, as you've done all of this research, what what is the background of bullying? Why why is it that a young individual? Well, boy, yeah, there is you know. I mean we're looking at elementary school, we're looking at high school, we're looking at college, and we're looking probably in the workforce. Also, we're not looking at shooter. You're looking at shooters. Shooters are the biggest bullies there are. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. What is it that causes someone to bully another individual? Well, actually, if you look at shooters, whom I consider the ultimate bullies, because they're not only bullying, they're killing. They're getting back at people that they don't like. That's what a bully does. They don't like you, and they think they can do it. They're going to do it with a gun. You can do what you want. It all boils down to what

6:54 are lives? Five basic needs? Okay, okay, you are a human being. You have five basic needs. Now you can go all the way back to biblical times. I forget the guy's name who did a thing on one of the needs, which is power. But back in the nineteenth century, the first philosopher came along and he says, why do people behave the way they do Okay, so they began trying to answer that question, because it is an interesting question. Why do you behave the way you do? Most people don't ever think about that. Yeah, what are those needs?

7:35 Well, the psychologist says, well, one of the reasons they behave the way they do is because they all want to live. Being alive is important. That's a need. And of course you take that on a scale of one to ten. On one end is death or the fear of death, and on the other end is no fear whatsoever. Zero. Well, in between you've got stress, anxiety, violence, anger, and bullying, and then scared fear, death, maybe even death all the way on that scale.

8:16 Well, that's one of the needs. Another guy comes along and says, oh, no, there's more to it than that. Everybody wants to be happy. Life with no happiness is no life. You can't be happy all the time, But do you have to have moments of happiness? Well, along came Nietzsche, a famous philosopher an agnostic too, by the way, in the late nineteenth century, So we're going way back to these guys trying to figure out why people behave the way they do. He says, oh, yeah, I think you're right, but there's a more important need. And here's where the bully fits in. He says, it's power.

8:58 People want power. And if you just think about what's going on in the United States today, in Congress, in the world, in Iran, in Russia, in China, in the United States with Trump, with Biden, the Dems, and the Republic, it's all about power. Yeah, yes, power is. It's what people have wanted forever. It goes back to the Devil and the Lord. This control for power. God decided was tired of messing with the devil, so he kicked twelve angels out of the out of heaven. You know, it goes way back. It goes back to Adam and Eve in the garden. The devil got control power over Eve, Yes, control over Adam. You see that power is a fundamental sort of power. And I agree with Niatsure completely. It's still so true today.

10:03 It's just amazing how much power. And that's where the bully is. But before we zero in back to the bully, let's cover the other two. Yes, needs okay, and they aren't anything crazy. It's just so common sense. The next guy comes along and he says, well, yeah, but what if nobody cared about you, you got this power. Nobody cares about you. How does that feel? What if you wake up one morning, Mark and realize that nobody in the world cares about you as a person, You're just nothing. That's a horrible feeling. In a marriage, when one spouse doesn't care about the other, what happens to the marriage? It's gone? Yeah, it goes by bye. And what happens to kids in a school when they believe the teachers don't care, when they believe the other kids don't care, and you're an isolate in that school? Uh huh, Yeah, here's where the bully comes in. Who does the bully target?

11:22 He targets an isolate somebody who is alone. Nobody wants them for their friend. And in my book I describe how to how to stop that. If you want to come back to that, we'll go with yes, we definitely will come back to that. And then what was the fifth? What was the fifth? One? Fifth? One is recently you've had oh the Seven Purposes the book? I haven't think he's written a book on the the Seven Purposes of life? Warren Rick Warren remember that, I've not read it.

12:07 Yeah, I've not read it. He basically said life with no purposes is no life, and of course the doctor maymon oz on TV has stated the same thing, life with no purposes, no life. Goes back to Gandhi, who also stated purpose in life is what makes life worth living. So you've got the five purposes. You've got this freedom from fear and anxiety, happiness, control, carry, and purpose. Here's a kid, the bully okay, has a high need for control, wants to control. So he finds some kid that nobody cares about, perfect victim, and that's the person he gets control over. He gets this great feeling of control. Well, why does this bullying have this knee for this control? Well, that was the question I was going to ask you, because you know, there's always it's interesting how we talk on a peripheral and you're not doing this, but you know, so often we talk on a peripheral basis. I used to have patients come in and I've told this before, but I always smile about it. They would come in and say, oh, doctor, I have TMJ and I'm going, well, wait a minute, you have too.

13:35 Actually you have a joint on the right side and a join on the left side. So what's your symptoms? Oh well, I'm having headaches or this or that or that, and it's like, okay, now let's get to the real issue of what is the real cause. So I appreciate you bringing that up, because as we look at bullies and as you were talking, one of the first things that came to my mind was, so, what is it that causes that young man or young woman to need that power, need that control, or a teacher that needs that control to the point where they will actually bully a student and those type of things, whether it's a child or an adult. What is it behind there from a sociological and psychological standpoint, that causes these people to have that need to bully? Well, now, this is theory only no I get that. No data on this, just like there's no data when Nietzsche came along and said power is what causes? Is what the most important need for why people behave the way they do. There's no data, it's just speculation. It's theory, but when experts agree on it, it gets some support. There are people who theorize that the reason why the bully bullies is because they themselves were bullied by their

15:09 parents. So parents out there who are listening to this. Here's what you need to do. If you want your kid to grow up with a healthy perception, a healthy grasp of what then are needs for control are in their life. You need to give control to your kids without giving it up. Now, that's a secret. That's the leadership thing that if we maybe sometime in another few we'll get into. What are the nine ways people control other people? There are nine ways. Parents use them all the time. If you don't give your kids control, how do you give them control? Well, there are five powers by forms of power that you use to give control all the kids. My forms of power that a leader uses to give control to subordinates. Well, let's talk about that. Let's let's talk about the nine powers real quick because we have time. So talk about what those nine powers and then talk about the five powers. Okay, so we'll talk about Okay, we're going to go to the forms of power and okay, trying to understand why the bully needs this power and how they use it. Okay, right, there are four controlling forms of power. So a leader are

16:41 a parent gives control to their kids with the five forms and when they don't do what they're supposed to do, the parent takes it back. That makes sense, hmm, yeah, that's what most leaders do. Successful leaders in organizations give control to the people out there because they can't supervise everything all the time. So the people have to do what they're supposed to do. So the forms of power, the freeing forms, cause that to happen. When it doesn't happen, the leader has to take it back. Because if you're a leader and you give control of somebody and they don't do what they're supposed to do and you don't take it back, what happens to your leadership, right, no doubt, you lose it. And most parents don't know that.

17:30 They don't realize that there is this give take thing. You have to give power to people. Now, if parents don't give power to their kids and badger them and control them, this kid's need for control, he doesn't have it, so he goes he tries to find a place to get power back, and he does it with animals, kills them. You know, the early signs are there with this kid who's having this, who is a potential bully in the future. It usually acts out with animals first, because if you're tender and carrying to animals. You're not trying to control them, you're loving them. Right, So now you've got to remember Mark, I'm eighty five and I sometimes wander here, so you've got to control and bring them. Okay, don't just remember that. I can get off on a tangent here and you don't need that. You know, you're listeners, So stop me when I'm going too far. And I lost my train of thought.

18:44 That okay. So yeah, we were talking about how parents don't give power to their kids. Yeah, okay, So and everything I'm going to say is common sense. You can say, wow, I didn't think about that. And your listeners out there, they know all of these forms of power and they've used them, never thought about it. But once you know them, you can sequentially go through them. Because there is the most freeing to the least freeing, the most controlling to the least controlling. So if you want to instill responsibility in people below you, if you want to give them control, if you want to make them responsible, if you want to motivate them to do things, you start with the least and you keep moving through them until you find one that works. So you can become pretty intelligent when it comes to being a parent. Okay, here's the least controlling.

19:52 Okay, let's go through those. You were going to say something, No, I said, let's go through the least and go through least controlling information. What we're doing right now? You give information to people and they say, ah, talk about that. Yeah, that's interesting, I think I'll try that. And this happens all the time on TV. You know, you get this information on right now the boot. The way they're shoving drugs and medicine at you is just crazy. Uh. Information and the lawyer is with theirs making money. They're shooting information at you and getting people to sue to get money to take this drug to cure that and this and all that.

20:41 So information is used all the time, the books, the encyclopedias, uh, Facebook, on and on with podcasts and YouTube and so forth. It's information now that's the most freeing. People hear it, see it and they say, uh, yeah, I would do that. And you know what, as a parent, as a parent, it's really interesting that when you literally give your children some of that basic information, it's amazing because oftentimes those kids will then take that information and that will be the basis of decisions that they will make that will continue to have them going in a good direction.

21:33 Right, that's right. That's why you take them to church, among other things. All Right, so we've got the information is number one, the least, what's the next? What's the next power? That's why you send them to school and give them books and all that stuff. You're right, and that's the most freeing form of information. Goes way back to a book written in the nineteen seventies. I forget what it was, but he's says information is the greatest form of power. It is inexhaustible. You can't overuse it. Now in my book, I also talk about the misuse of power. Too much information is a misuse because it overwhelms the person and they can't they can't handle it. So there is a use and misuse of all of this. We're only going to talk about if you marry. If you marry information power with the next form of power, it becomes more powerful, expertise. So you not only have information now, but you've got this person who demonstrates how to use this information, and he's wonderful, and you look at that and you say, wow, I wish I could do that.

22:49 That guy really knows what he's talking about. I really like you know. And then when you take an expert. Let's suppose you're a golfer. Okay, you've got the golf magazines, you've got the videos, you've done everything, and you've got all the information, and you say, well, I'm gonna I'm going to go get a lesson, and the guy happens to be a famous person and he shows you how to do it, and you say, wow, I see what you did. I think I can do that. So you see, you've this. You're not making the person do it, You're getting them, You're motivating them to do it. You're not controlling them at all. They have free they have freedom, okay. Well, and as you as you say that, what comes to my mind is that they're using that expertise to share with others to help them to become better.

23:52 And so as you say, we're talking about the positive aspects of this rather than the negative, but that expertise to be able to share that with others, with our children, with those around us, whether it's in the workforce, as you say, in school or in the family. Being able to share that expertise in a way that allows those other individuals to take that expertise and rather than feeling like, oh I can't do it, helping them to understand that this is something that you can do. You just need to understand. How right? That's right? Very pofible. Yeah, yeah, I love that all right. But what's the next one? And it happens all the time. It's happening every day. Yeah, oh I know, get information, they see it happening, and they they're turned on. They do it. You don't have to make them do it. They do it, that's right, that's right. It is their decision and they become responsible and they're motivated. Go man, go, Now you had a third component that it gets even better. Suppose you like the guy who's asking you to do it, yeah, and he says, hey, I need to have this done. Do you think you can do it for me? Oh yeah, dad, I'll be glad to do that. Or if you're the boss, or if it's your wife, or you're you know, whoever. But if somebody asks you to do something and you like it, sometimes that's all you need. Right, Well, if you like that or you like the person.

25:26 And I think those are two separate things. So you know, originally, as you were saying, do you like the individual? And then do you like what they're asking you to do? Right now you've married, you've got a real motivated person there. But normally it's not like that. Normally, when it happens, it's somebody just asks you to do something. There's no information or expertise, they just But you know if when you ask somebody and they don't do it because you know they like you, or they may not like you that much, but then you move to information, you give them, well, wait a minute, here's something you ought to know about what I'm asking you to do. So he give them information, right, they still don't do it, and you say, well not wait a minute.

26:25 You remember that guy that you really like, the one that you've been watching on TV. You know he does this kind of thing. This is what he does in his life every day. If you like him, why don't you want to be like him? I never thought about that, dad, Yeah, you're right, So you move it up a notch. Okay, now I suppose that still doesn't work. Move it up another notch? Is it now? Wait a minute? Or employee or whatever? You know, last time I saw you doing something really great. It was when you did this, you stroke their ego. Okay, you're stroking their ego.

27:17 You say you were. You really did a great job with that, And what I'm asking you to do fits right in line with that. What do you think? Yeah, you're right, I did do a good job with that. A piece of cake? Yeah, why not? Okay, now move it up another notch. There's the negative ego stroke, which is very very powerful. Says so the guy says, yeah, I remember the last time I saw you do that. You really did a great job. And this one here looks pretty tough. I'm not sure you can do that.

28:00 What do you mean? What do you mean I can't do that? You know worse than the other wey, Yeah, I can do that. Now, you really got somebody who's motivated. Actually, the negative ego stroke is one of the most powerful forms of freeing power. But you got to use it on the right person and in the right way, and in the right way and in the right way, because it can be a disaster if it becomes manipulation. Exactly, when you use the negative egostroke to manipulate people and they get wise to it, you are done. You're finished. So you've got to be careful with that negative ego stroke. Let me give you the one I cited in my book as the most famous example. Okay, Muhammad Ali when he was in school, his teacher told him he would never amount to anything. Guess what he did. The first thing he did after he won the gold glove in the Olympics in Cuba, went back to that teacher.

29:14 You told me I would never amount to anything. Look what I did. The negative ego stroke. Sometimes it can light a fire and a person like you would not believe if used properly, it is fantastic form of power. But I've seen people use overuse it. Or here he comes again. I wonder what he wants this time? This is the overuse of the personality power. Right, So we got four forms of power and it's still not working. Okay, here we are. I want to go back to the poor life and happiness, life, death, happiness, control, personality.

30:00 I'm getting yeah, okay, I'm getting in my needes mixed up nearing with my apportness of power, personality and ego. Now here's the form of power that everybody should be using every day. It's moral power. What is the right thing to do. Okay, that's where our country is screwed up right now, big time, because these kids growing up, they don't know if they're male or female, what's right, what's wrong. They're being bombarded by information. They see it on TV, they hear it at home, they hear it in school, and they don't know what's right anymore. Many kids don't know what's right. That's why they're so screwed up. But anyway, in an organization and in a home, let's start with the parents. Do your kids know what is the right thing to do? Have you laid down the rules? Do they know them or do they have to find out what the rules are after they don't do what you wanted them to do. What are the rules in a house? What are the rules in a classroom?

31:15 What are the rules in your county? What are the laws? And on and on with the rules. If you know what the rules are, most people will do them unless they forget them. Well. And you know what, though, as you talk about that, what comes to my mind is, and as you said, there's always the positive of this power, and then there becomes the negative. And I don't want to get into the negative, but I think as we talk about setting the rules, we need to really make sure that as parents, as teachers, whatever they or a leader in a business, whatever it is, they need to make sure that those rules number one, as you say, are ethical, are moral, are appropriate, and are not punishing but rather uplifting as they're being followed and accomplished.

32:08 So I think that there's a real, real challenge there for people to recognize that is there setting down rules, especially parents, is there setting down rules for their children? And it goes back to how much freedom are you giving your children? And then how many, you know, what rules do you set down. I've got four kids, and I remember telling my kids, you know what, as long as you are maintaining your integrity, as long as you're not really messing up, we're okay. And it's only when we get to a point where you're starting to mess up that I'm going to step in and we're going to start having some of these discussions. And you know what, for them, it worked, it worked great. I remember my daughter one time when she was a teenager and I said, all right, you know, your curfew is twelve o'clock midnight, and she goes, okay. I said and then that's fine. Well, one morning, she didn't get home until four in the morning, and I sat there and I going, okay, sweetie, what's going on. I didn't get angry.

33:12 I said, just tell me what's going on, because you know what your curfew is. She said, Dad. So I had a friend. Yeah, I had a friend. I had a friend who was really struggling, and I felt like I just needed to stay and help them. And as soon as I felt that they were going to be okay, I came home and I looked at her and I said, that's wonderful. Just from now on, give me a call. And that was it. So I think it's really important sometimes, and you know, I wish I could say it was a great parent. I keep asking my kids. But I think the point is is that as parents, we need to understand that we set the rules, but we also set a level of trust and understanding, and we make sure that there's that communication going on so that we understand what's happening.

34:02 And so anyway, I think that becomes really important. Here's what I want to get to though. I want to talk to you about this bullying that I don't want to leave that one Okay, go ahead, and then well then we'll get into the next rone. You're saying is very true. But what if you what if they don't agree on the rules? That's where you were coming That's where you were coming from. Okay, how do you get people to agree on what the rules should be? It's actually very simple. With the parents, this is what I would suggest you do. Do you have four kids? Okay, Now I don't know when you do this with your kids, but this is what I haven't. I didn't do it, but I would if I were to be a parent again, I would do it. I would give my kids three by five cards and I would say, I would like for you to tell me what you want the rules to be in this house. What do you want the rule to be? What you want us to tell you what we want? Yeah, I want to know what you think the rules ought to be in this house. Okay, just write one thing on each card. You can have as many cars as you want. So each of the kids gets five cards, and if they fill those out, you say, do you want some more? Do you want any more? No? So you get the rules and you quickly sort them in the common files, and it's easy because there's one thing on each car. You don't need the cards, but I use that for sorting purposes.

35:32 I did this with my kids as a teacher. What do you want the rules to be in this classroom? You want us to tell you what the rules are? Yeah, I want to know what you think the rules ought to be. And so I get from my one hundred and twenty kids all these cards and they're quickly sorted into common files. And I come up with both piles that I've got a lot of cards in them. Well, those are going to be the rules for the classroom. And there's usually one rule that they never put in in every class I ever had, they would never put it in, let's turn in your homework on time. So I just put it in and of course they probably thought, who's the stupid kid that put that in there. Well, anyway, once the rules go up, it's their rules. Now. As a parent, if they don't say a rule that you want, like, they probably won't put in there the rule and force the rule of curfew one we come home. They won't put it in there. Right, there's one rule you didn't put in there, I'm going to have to put it in there. Don't you think we need to have a curfew here? What do you think should there be a curfew in this house? They aren't going to say no, right, you're probably well, what do you think it ought to be? What time should it be? And you get them to agree on that. You get to argue your point at your parents. They will listen to you. You'll get it,

37:07 you'll get agreement on. Now you've got the rules up and everybody agrees that those are the rules. There is no guess and what the rules are when you violate when you know you violated it, well, and that's right, that's right. And I appreciate what you were saying there, and I really do want to get to this other area. You've got a son that's being bullied all right in grade school. What what are you going to recommend? Because you've done all this research on the area of bullying behavior, character related behavior and so on and so forth, what do you do as a parent when your child comes home crying and you discover that they've been bullied by either an individual or maybe multiple individuals. How do you handle that with your child? And how do you handle that in that community of school or work or wherever it happens to be well, you have to here's the problem.

38:08 The bystanders are the ones who are allowing that they see it. The teachers, you don't see it. The parents don't see it. The teachers don't see it. It happens out of sight. But every time a kid is being bullied, there usually are bystanders. Somebody's watching. That's what the bully feeds on. They want this everybody to know that they are top dog. They want to know how. They want other people to see be afraid of them too, which increases if there's nobody around, like the tree that falls in the woods, if nobody sees what you're doing, then it's only you.

38:51 But if you've got a crowd of people around watching you do this thing to this kid, it increases your power and they feed on that. Okay, so you have to start with the bystanders. So if you've given control to kids in your school, now that's my book. How do you give control to the kids in the schools so they control their own behavior. Because what happens in most schools today that teacher in in every classroom, period hour has to stop teaching to control the kid five to ten times. That interrupts the learning process, and that's why our schools are underperforming. But anyway, once you give control to the kids, it goes beyond just that because it empowers the kid, It gives them power. They feel this need, they feel like they have control. Okay, Well, when a kid bullies and they know it's wrong in a school today, let's do nothing. I've got the data. Eight out of ten kids will do nothing. They'll watch.

40:07 They not only watch, some of them encourage the kid, that's right, and then some of the other kids who haven't need to control join in. So you've not only got one kid bullying this isolate, but you've got maybe a whole school of kids bullying. This isolate. This kid is in big trouble. This kid is hurting big time. This isolate. What does this kid do? Some of them go home and get a gun and come back and shows them what you did to me. Bam, bam, bam. I've analyzed, I've analyzed shooter after shooter, and it's the same thing happening over and over and over. Yeah, and yet, and I want to move away from that for a minute, because most of those kids end up in a situation where they feel like they're no good. They're developing this whole belief system internally that they're not any good, that they can't accomplish anything.

41:10 That's that's the impression and perception that they developed. So the question goes again, and we're not going to have a lot of time. What do you do? What do you do as a parent? What do you do as a teacher. Here's what I suggest you do. If you're a parent listening out there and your kid is being bullied, this is what you need to do. You need to talk to your kid and say, hey, we're having a birthday party coming up, or no, hey, how about inviting a couple of your friends over for a sleep in. Because what you want to do as a parent, you want to know if your kid's got any friends. Yeah, if the kid has no friends, you know what the problem is? How do you get kid to make friends? I had the same thing happen here with one of my golfing buddies. It was new to our group. He says. You've been involved in school, He says.

42:13 My daughter is having all kinds of trouble at school. Nobody likes her. She just got new friends, she says. He says, what do I do? I says, well, that's pretty easy. He says, why did you have a party and then have her invite some friends over? So she did, and she had two or three friends. She didn't have many, but she had two or three and they had a sleep in. And I said, and then have another one and have her invite some more friends. He says. About six months, he says, manical, he's a thank you Jesus. The problem to solved. She's doing well. Now, okay, well that's what you do as a parent. But here is what you do at the school. Okay, you know, and you can go to the counselor and say can you help me with my daughter or with my son? And the counselors that's what they're supposed to do. Mont of times they push books and keep grades and they don't get involved in what they're supposed to do, and that's helped the kids, help the mental environment in this school. Meant, that's what counselors are supposed to do. They're supposed to counsel these kids who are in trouble and counsel the parents who've got kids who are in trouble. That's their role. So Most counselors don't know what to do with this situation, but here is what they should do. And the parent can go there and say, I'd like to know how many friends my

43:45 kids has in this school. Do you think you can help me find out? Okay? The counselor says, well, what do you How do you want me to do that? He said, well, Bulock said this is what you should do. Okay, so you share with them what They may come up with it right away, but it's so easy. You say, well, my daughter is having is having a birthday. I want you to find out how many kids Let's see, I forget how I would have got But what you want to find out is you want to have the counselor survey the kids in this kid's class find out if if they would go, yeah, if they would go to her birthday party. Now I'm having a senior moment here and trying to find tooth that, but that you out there can figure that one out. You want to find out if your kid's inviting people to the birthday party, how many people would go. Now, when the parent says to the kid, invite sell of your friends, the kid goes to who she thinks are her friends. So she's not even looking at all of the kids in the school. Because when there's a birthday party, most kids will go to the birthday party if they're invited. So you want to find out how many of the kids would go to her birthday party, and

45:20 if there are none, you know this kid has no friends. So what do you do as the counselor? Okay, you go to the principle and you say, the most principals have got a leader program. They've got kids that they go to when they want to involve the kids in running the school. So they have selected maybe a half dozen to a dozen kids who are considered the creamer who they go to the teacher and say, I need one kid from your class to be on my leader team. Who do you think is your best choice? Right, so you get your leader and the most principles, I've got a leader team. Counselor goes to the leader team and says, I've got a kid that needs a friend. They're being bullied and they're in trouble in school, and which one of you would like to take her on as your project? And most of these kids will love it.

46:17 They'll jump all over that because they want to help. These are the kids who want to help, they are in the school. So you get one of them to pair up with this kid and this kid greets do you give the kids some guidelines on what they're to do, one of which is meet them when they come to school, ask them if how they're feeling, and you know, just chit chat with them, okay, see if they need anything, and then you might have them eat lunch with the kid. Okay, So this kid who's got no friends all of a sudden is sitting with the kids who are the cream of the crop. Yeah, it changes the kid overnight. It also changes the way the other kids treat this kid.

47:10 That's right. So I can't say that the problem is solved, but you have made this kid someone who is now someone at the school and not on nothing. And that really becomes the first step. And we're closing out of time now, Cleader. So if you had a message for parents, and if you had a message for teachers in a very short minute, what would you say The most important thing you can do as a parent and as a teacher, and as a person, as a leader, as a human being is to listen to other people listen to what they're saying. You see listening and telling, or the two hair facets of whether you're an open person or whether you're a closed person. An open person is going to be successful.

48:07 A closed person is going to do the same old, same old, and they're they're fixed them to die. An open person listens. What does it happen when you listen to somebody else? It tells them that you care about them. Caring is one of the most important needs in life. If you listen to people, you show that you care. It's the most important quality of a human being to be able to listen. Telling is not one of the most important. It is important because that's what we do healthy. But listening is the most important thing you can do as a human being to other people in your life. Okay, I love that. I love that, And you know it is so important that listening, that caring, that being kind, all of those things are so important. And Kretis, thank you so much for being on the showf this is this has been great and that book sounds fascinating because you hit all sorts of different areas and understanding and in my mind, and one of the reasons I love to do these shows is because you know, there's so many people out there that are facing some of these types of dilemmas and they don't know what the solution is. And being able to read a book, being able to listen to a podcast, they start to get ideas that engender enough curiosity and enthusiasm that they research more and can start to find the solutions in this case, to their child being bullied or to handle those that are actually bullying. So Kletis, thanks for being

49:37 on the show. I really appreciate it. Well, I appreciate you being a great host. You you interacted it very well. We did well together and I appreciated your input on this. Well. Fath right, well go ahead. I'll thank you that you're doing what you're doing. Hopefully people will listen to you you and use information power and it will impact their lives in a positive way. Well, I appreciate that, and folks, thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this and you do a little bit more research. Especially look at your kids and if they're coming home and you have a sense that they're not happy, let's figure out what's going on, because more than likely somebody is bullying them, and you can make a difference in your own child's life. So thanks for listening. Hope you'll join us again soon. Have a great week.