June 2, 2025

Overcoming Betrayal Trauma with Mr. J

Overcoming Betrayal Trauma with Mr. J
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Discover the profound impact of betrayal trauma, its emotional effects, and the path to healing. Mr. J shares expert insights on managing triggers, self-forgiveness, and rebuilding trust in relationships.

Inspire Vision Podcast is broadcast on K4HD Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Inspire Vision Podcast TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

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WEBVTT

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At the end of the day, it's not about what

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you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what

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you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,

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who you've made better. It's about what you've given back

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than Soel Washington, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose

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is to elevate the lives of others and to inspire

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you to do the same.

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Jenny, Welcome to the show.

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How are you hey, doctor Dog. Thank you for having

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me on. Appreciate your time.

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Well, I'm enjoying having you.

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This is an interesting topic and what fascinates me is

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how people tend to get to a point, what their

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journey is on where they finally reach for We're talking

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on podcasts about things that may be entirely different what

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they originally did. You know from a business standpoint or

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from that kind of thing. So, what is your journey,

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what is your background and what brought you to this

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point where you are helping people with trauma?

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Well do you have four days now? You know? So,

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I started my career as a youth worker. I worked

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with troubled youth. Then after that I went back to school,

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got my teaching certification my master's degree, and I was

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certified and special at it. So I used to I

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would work with kids primarily with behavioral difficulties, some learning difficulties,

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but primarily behavioral difficulties. I did that for about, you know,

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over fifteen years, and then we decided to adopt some children,

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and it was important that one of us stay home,

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so voila, I was the one picked. So I stayed

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home for many years. And then as my kids got older.

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Long story short, my father died tragically and quickly. And

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when I mean quickly and tragically, I was talking with

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him on the phone one day, laughing, telling jokes, and

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four days later his casket was being lowered into the ground,

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and it just it just shocked my system. And about

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two days after his funeral, well, I woke up in

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my first ever panic attack. Now I've heard of panic attacks,

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never experienced one, but boy do I appreciate it now

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when somebody says they have a panic attack, because it

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literally feels like you are dying. It feels like a

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heart attack. I went on to do some research on

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why I had this panic attack, and in my research

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discovered I had a lot of unpeeled childhood trauma. That

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led me into this deep dive of understanding the differences

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between stress trauma and then betrayal trauma. And I found

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the topic of betrayal trauma beyond fascinating and I started

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getting into these groups. Next thing, you know, I was

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taking all of my wisdom from collective all the years

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of my life, and I was helping these groups. And

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somebody reached out to me and said, you know, I've

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noticed that you've been helping a lot of people. I

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have a program. Would you like to become certified in

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this and help people profession And I said, yeah. So

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I always say I didn't find betrayal trauma approaching. It

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found me. Okay, the rest is history.

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All right, all right, And you've written a couple of books.

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Tell me about the books.

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So, actually, one book has to do with my education

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when I was teaching students, when I first started teaching, well,

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it doesn't matter, bottom line. I have a children's book

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out there. It's on Amazon. It's called I Am Loved

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right where I Am. It's actually doing well his phenomenal reviews.

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And then when I started doing my coaching business, I

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found that from the time of discovery or what people

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call D day until the time they can really start

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coming up and lifting their nose above water, give or take,

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is about three months. So I designed a three month

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Betrayal Trauma Journal which helps people go from tears to transformation.

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Published journal as.

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Well, wonderful.

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So, you know, it's interesting as you talk about betrayal.

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One of the things that comes to my mind is

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it's so it's so individually perceptive and perception. So you know,

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something may happen to me, and if it were to

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happen to you, you consider it really deeply trauma and

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I look at it and go, okay, that's.

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Just part of life.

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So first of all, let's talk about what is your

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concept of trauma and betrayal trauma? And then secondarily, you know,

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not only how do you define it, but what causes

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people to perceive it as betrayal rather than just an

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incident that occurs.

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Yeah, great questions. So I'm going to tell you something,

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just for the ease of the viewers. Trauma is simply

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this too much, too soon. It's anything that overwhelms our

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coping mechanism. And the reason why different people can perceive

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it differently is because everybody has different coping mechanisms. Somebody

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might have a strong childhood foundation, strong resilience, a great

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support system. Maybe they tap into their faith, may a

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really good you know, yoga and meditation and prayer and

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all this other stuff, and if something happens from a

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traumatic standpoint, their system may not be overwhelmed. When somebody

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that doesn't have those system in place, they could experience

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the same thing and it could be overwhelming. So it's

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too much, too soon. And basically, betrayal trauma is almost

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the same thing, only it's at the hands of a

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primary attachment. So betrayal trauma would be safe from let's

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just say you're relying on a child, a parent. Well, actually,

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if you're a parent relying on your child, you can

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get betrail trauma from a child. You can get betrail

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trauma from a boss. It's anyone that you're reliant upon

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or that caretakes you. So a boss, your job, your

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actually God, or yourself. And i'll give you an example

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in a second. And certainly espousal betrayal. Probably eighty five

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percent of my clients are from spousal betrayals and fidelity.

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People working to rebuild after broken trust but when I

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say God or yourself, basically, you know, I work with

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a lady one time and she was like, mister j

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I was, I'm a health fanatic, I meditate, I eat organically,

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I do all my checkups, and I was still diagnosed

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with breast cancer. So I feel like my God, my creator,

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and my body betrayed me. So that could be betrayal traumas.

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Okay, okay, So another question that it just comes to

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my mind. And I assume you're familiar with with different

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emotional levels and so forth, And there's a couple of

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charts out there that have been developed about your emotional level,

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whether it's happiness all the way down to anger and victims.

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So I look at victim.

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How many people that are experiencing trauma, betrayal or betrayal

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trauma tend to find themselves in that victim emotional state?

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Oh, I'd probably initially say one hundred percent. You know,

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one of the things I like to do is empower

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my clients. And one of the ways I do that is,

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you know, instead of victim, can we can we ass

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and possibility of uh survivor? And I'm gonna be honest

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with you, and I know I might put a lot

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of people off. I don't even like the term survivor.

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So can we you know, if they're if they go

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into survivor, can we start transitioning out of that to fighter?

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Well?

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And I agree with you, because survivor still tends to

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point to victim, and you know and that that kind

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of correlates to a victim. And I totally agree with

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you on that, So I appreciate you making that point.

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So let's let's talk about.

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Betrayal for a minute. You're you're defining it and what

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what brings that about? And how do people normally react

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and depending And you brought up the fact that you've had,

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you know, a fairly healthy childhood and so on and

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so forth, and some deep beliefs and that type of thing.

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You may be a little bit more resilient. But what

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have you found common wise among the people you work with?

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What what is what are some of the things that

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cause that sense of betrayal? What are some of the

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things that they've experienced in childhood that immediately brings up

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to the point where they perceive it now is betrayal?

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Well, okay, great question, And first let's let me just

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rewind two minutes and just say this. I want to

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give differences between trauma and betrayal trauma. Okay, there's there's

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there's there's a few differences. I just want to point

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out three. Okay, number one. Betrayal trauma is a secret society.

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So right now, let's just say, you know, somebody listening

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has a parent pass away. That's traumatic. That's traumatic. However,

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you can call your boss and ask for some bereavement time,

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your coworkers show up to the funeral, maybe your neighbors

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bring you some meals. You can't call your boss and say, hey, listen,

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I need time off. I just found out found some

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hooker numbers and my mattress for my husband. You just

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don't do that. It's a secret society, so you don't

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tell people things, so you don't have the collective support.

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So it's a secret society and people feel so alone.

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That's the first difference with betrayal trauma. The next difference

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is it's so personal. If you have a parent that dies, yeah,

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that's sad, it's it's traumatic, and it's going to change.

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But unless you killed your parents, you can't personalize it.

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When you find numbers under your match, just that your

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you know, spouses is hooking up with people or an

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app on their phone, they're meeting people on their lunch break.

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You personalize that what was wrong with me? Why wasn't

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I good enough? So it's personal betrayl trauma. And the

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last point I'll make as far as the difference between

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trauma and betrayal trauma, is that trauma affects the here

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and now, in the in the in the future. Betrayal

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trauma affects not only the here and now in the future,

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but it also affects the past because now you can't

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look at old pictures of vacations anymore the way you

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used to. Now you can't drive by certain hotels and

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restaurants without getting triggered. So those are three key differences

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between trauma and betrayal trauma. Now, to answer your question, okay,

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I think what happens and listen, there's no study on

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this next point I'm going to make. This is just

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Jay's thought and study and whatever my expertise is. I

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feel what I'm dealing with clients that when they are

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dealing with the betrayal at hand, it's probably about it.

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It's affecting them about forty percent. What's the other sixty

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percent of what it's affected is it's waking up that

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sleeping giant of all the childhood wounds they never healed.

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So that's what I have thought.

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And have you found there's common themes among the childhood

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trauma that they've experienced that that brings up or is

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it really individualized?

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No, it's really individualized, but it usually does go back

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to some type of childhood betrayal trauma, whether it was

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a babysitter, an ant, or an uncle, a parent, a neighbor,

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somebody that they relied upon, they were they were getting

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care from who somehow, in some capacity betrayed them.

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Okay, and you talk a little bit, and I'm curious,

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what's betrayal blind Now you haven't mentioned that yet, but

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what is betrayal blindness?

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And how does that fit into this whole discussion.

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So betrayal blindness was a term that was keyed by

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Jennifer Freed, I believe in nineteen ninety one, and basically

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it's a part of our nervous system. It's the fawn response.

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If it was to fit in one of those f's

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although we know them as the three fight flight fond

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I think there's a lot more f's. There's flite flight,

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fond forget this f this. I think there's a lot

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of f's. But anyway, betrayal blindness is this. It's a

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phenomenon that our what our mind does is real is

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minimize or deny what's in front of us as a

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way to protect us. So it's actually meant to protect us,

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but it's I call it our best friend and our

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worst enemy because what happens isn't when the truth comes out.

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Now we're dealing with multiple womans. Let me explain. Okay,

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so little Red GRIDINGO right. She wants to see her grandma.

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She loves her grandma. She misses her grandma. But let's

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just say there's COVID lockdowns. She can't see her grandma,

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so she's got to wait for two months, four months,

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six months. All of a sudden, the lockdowns are lifted.

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I can go see my grandma. So she starts making

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oatmeal cookies, banana bread, chocolate chip muffins, you name it.

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She's so excited. She knows there's a big, bad wolf

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in the forest, but she's so blinded by wanting to

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see her grandmother. That's all she knows, and so she goes,

225
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and she trudges through the deep dark precocious or precarious forest,

226
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and she knocks on the door, and something inside her

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just immediately feels off. But she misses her grandma. She

228
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wants to see her grandma, but nobody calls, nobody answers

229
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the door. So she opens up the door. She's like, Grandma,

230
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something in her body says danger, or she's like, I

231
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want to see my grandmother. I have blinders on. So

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she goes in the back bedroom. Now the red flags

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in her body are screaming because she even says, Grandma,

234
00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:57.120
why do you have beady eyes, a long nose and

235
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sharp teeth? I mean it's right in front of her,

236
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but she still questions it because she wants to see

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her grandmother so much to the detriment, the wolf winds

238
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up eating her. Well, that's what happens with the betrayal blindness.

239
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We'll see the chapstick in the glove compartment, or we'll

240
00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:15.799
see the smell of the perfume, you know, on our spouse,

241
00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:19.360
and what happens. Betrayal blindness kicks in and we're like, oh,

242
00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:22.240
he just gave his coworker right home from work. Oh

243
00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:25.320
she he was just doing a tester at the store.

244
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That's what I smell. The facts are right in our face.

245
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But the.

246
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Fact that if we were to accept our spouse is

247
00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:39.399
cheating on us would be so devastating and overwhelm our system.

248
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Our system shuts down to it, and we've become blind

249
00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:44.799
to it. Now when I see our best friend and

250
00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:48.240
our worst enemy is because it does protect us in

251
00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:51.080
a way. It does protect us. But what winds up

252
00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:53.200
happening is once it all comes out in the wash,

253
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as my mother used to say, and the truth is revealed.

254
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Now not only are we dealing with the betrayal from

255
00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:02.679
our spouse or formever, but now we've separated ourselves so

256
00:14:02.840 --> 00:14:05.759
much from ourselves that now we don't even know who

257
00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:08.120
we are while we're trying to work on healing from

258
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Betrayal's okay.

259
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So here's my question.

260
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As you're talking about the blindness and how individuals will

261
00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:18.919
stay in a relationship and so forth and just kind

262
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of avoid seeing what's there. You know, obviously, but let's

263
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talk about trauma, physical, mental, emotional abuse that goes on, say,

264
00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:37.200
in a relationship, and we talk about individuals who will

265
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stay in those relationships because they tend to be you know,

266
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really it's difficult to get out of that. Is that

267
00:14:44.919 --> 00:14:47.480
in a sense because when you get into relationship, you

268
00:14:47.559 --> 00:14:50.799
have this vision of what's really going to be about

269
00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:52.879
and how good it's going to be and so forth,

270
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and then all of a sudden these other things happen.

271
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Is that a form of betrayal?

272
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You mean, within yourself, well.

273
00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:04.840
Within yourself, and you know, you're married to someone and

274
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all of a sudden you're getting the emotional abuse or

275
00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:10.519
physical abuse or whatever that happens to be. And you

276
00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:13.600
had them, you know, visioned to be at a certain

277
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.720
level of love and kindness and trust, and all of

278
00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:19.360
a sudden, here's all this stuff going on that you

279
00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:23.480
never expected. Is that something that they're kind of betraying

280
00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:26.320
you because they're not who you thought they were.

281
00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:32.559
The line can be very murky with that scenario. I

282
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think a lot of people stay in relationships for various reasons,

283
00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:39.320
whether it be you know, whether it be we have kids,

284
00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:42.159
I don't want to disrupt this dynamic, whether it be

285
00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:47.559
somebody's financially reliant upon someone, whether it be I promised

286
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:49.759
God that I was going to stay in this marriage

287
00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:55.080
what have you. So, usually betrayal trauma is is not

288
00:15:55.440 --> 00:16:00.720
something that's slow and endured throughout. Usually it's a big

289
00:16:01.159 --> 00:16:04.240
earthquake in in the life. Now, let me tell you,

290
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:09.919
depending on the person's experiences and developmental potential trauma, certainly

291
00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:18.480
they could they could feel some betrayal trauma, but usually

292
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:21.799
it's more of I called betrayal trauma almost like like

293
00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:25.679
the cancer of diseases. It's I and I say that

294
00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:28.080
for a few reasons. Number one is because just like cancer,

295
00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:31.519
betrayal trauma affects the whole entire family. And just like

296
00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:37.799
cancer or heart attack, if you recover, usually if you

297
00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:41.759
do the work, somebody could be far more healthier after

298
00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.480
a heart attack or you know, a major disease than beforehand,

299
00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:49.039
because now you really know what to focus on that

300
00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:53.679
maybe you weren't focusing on before. So yeah, certainly, most definitely.

301
00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:55.559
Let's just say you get out of a twenty year

302
00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:58.679
marriage or relationship and you're like, wow, this person really

303
00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:05.440
betrayed me. Certainly, but betrayal trauma usually what happens is

304
00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:09.119
it's a profound shock to your system when you're with

305
00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:11.920
somebody who over twenty years is verbally abusive, it's not

306
00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.240
necessarily a shock to your system, but certainly with some people,

307
00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:19.039
depending on their history or past, it could also be

308
00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:20.720
in line, so it could get murky in query.

309
00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:23.799
All right, And you know, you talk about it mainly

310
00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:28.359
all the words you're using deals with relationships, and you know,

311
00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:33.359
someone betraying an individual in a relationship, is that the

312
00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:36.519
main majority of people that you work with her? Have

313
00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:40.200
you found that there are other types of betrayal that

314
00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:43.960
causes that traial trauma besides just a relationship.

315
00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:46.920
Absolutely, Like I was saying before, the lady that you

316
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:49.960
know was very healthy and she was organic, and she meditated,

317
00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:53.240
and she was diagnosed with breast cancer, she felt that

318
00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:56.920
her creator, God, or even her body betrayed her. Some

319
00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:59.960
of my clients have been working for twenty thirty forty

320
00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:05.039
years at a company and they're being fired and laid off,

321
00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:08.640
and they're like, I devoted my life to my job,

322
00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:12.319
I devoted my existence to my company, and I feel

323
00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:14.880
like my company's betraying me now in my older years.

324
00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:17.640
So absolutely, it's not just you know, it just so

325
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.799
happens that well, first of all, there's a lot of

326
00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:25.279
lack of information out there. People don't consider getting fired

327
00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:30.359
from a job unjustly betrayal trauma. That's probably why there's

328
00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:32.039
not the people coming out of the woodworks that have

329
00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:34.960
experienced that. And trust me, there are money, but certainly

330
00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:41.079
there's well unfortunately, in today's day of technology, infidelity has skyrocketed.

331
00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:44.359
So that's why the majority of people my clients, okay,

332
00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:45.839
they are their espousal.

333
00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:49.039
So what do you do for these people? What?

334
00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:52.319
You know, if I were to come to you and say, hey,

335
00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:57.079
you know, I've experienced this major betrayal in my relationship,

336
00:18:57.119 --> 00:18:59.160
which I have not, by the way, But if I

337
00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:02.400
were to say that to you, what what path would

338
00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:04.400
you put me on? And how would you start to

339
00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:08.480
help me to number one, overcome it? And maybe before

340
00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:12.519
even that, what what are the what do people experience

341
00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:19.680
emotionally with that betrayal syndrome? And how do they ultimately

342
00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:21.319
overcome it? How do you help them?

343
00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:24.880
Okay, great question. I just want to say, in my

344
00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:29.359
personal view, and a lot of professionals will disagree with me,

345
00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:33.640
I don't know if you ever overcome trauma and betrayal trauma,

346
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:37.039
I believe you learn to manage it. It's just like

347
00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:39.839
you know, if you lose a parent, do you ever

348
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.640
get over that, No, but you absolutely learn to deal

349
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:47.039
with it better as the years go on. And number two,

350
00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:49.519
I want to say this love your question, but it's

351
00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.440
like going to the doctor and saying, I have arthritis.

352
00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:54.359
How can you help me? Well, hold on, do you

353
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:56.960
have ostio? Do you have rheumatory? Do you have I mean,

354
00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:59.240
you know, where does it hur? When did you first

355
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:02.160
experience this? What have you tried before? So there's a

356
00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:06.640
whole you know, modality and methodology to understanding things. But

357
00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:10.720
I'd also want to know what did you discover, When

358
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:13.720
did you discover it, how did you discover it, what

359
00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:17.119
have you been doing from then till now? Because I

360
00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:21.119
talked to people who just found out their spouse has

361
00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:24.079
been cheating on them and they're literally bear hugging the toilet,

362
00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:26.480
vomiting while we're on the phone. And then I talked

363
00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:28.960
to people who are thirty years out of in fidelity

364
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:31.480
but they just never dealt with it, and now something

365
00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:34.119
happened in their life or that were that brought up

366
00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:36.640
that conjured up some of these feelings. So it would

367
00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:39.000
really depend on the spectrum where you are too. But

368
00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:43.160
just for the sake of conversation, let's just say somebody

369
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.359
is a few months out and you know, two, three,

370
00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:47.480
four months out of there. One of the things that

371
00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:51.480
I have people do is, first of all, I try

372
00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:55.960
to teach them like rounding techniques, breathing exercises, which are very,

373
00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.279
very very researched. A lot of people are like, yeah, yeah, yeah,

374
00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:02.319
I breathe help me, and I get that, but there's

375
00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:04.759
certain things. There's certain ways we breathe where you know,

376
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:09.400
we raise the chest area, the lungs that really kind

377
00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:12.599
of get in the way of our heart having the

378
00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:16.880
maximum amount of room. Rounding techniques, you know named you

379
00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:19.400
know three things you can smell, two things you can touch,

380
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:21.839
you know, five things you can see whatever. So I

381
00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:25.279
really try to introduce those just because the triggers from

382
00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:28.079
betrayal trauma will take you to your knees and maybe

383
00:21:28.119 --> 00:21:30.119
if we have time, we'll get to triggers. But one

384
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:31.880
of the things I have people do is write down

385
00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:34.680
and needs assessment, because everybody's needs are going to be different.

386
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:36.960
You know, if I'm talking to let's just say a

387
00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:39.319
single mother and she has four kids and she works

388
00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:41.400
full time, one of the things I'll have for I

389
00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:43.480
do is right down and needs assessment? What do you

390
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:46.799
need so your needs might be okay? What are three

391
00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:51.240
restaurants where I can touch my app or call and

392
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:54.359
within thirty minutes they'll deliver food. Because when you get

393
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:56.480
a trigger and you're in the fetal position in bed,

394
00:21:56.519 --> 00:21:58.880
you can't get up, your kids still need to eat.

395
00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:01.599
So a need that's needs assessment. You know, what are

396
00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:03.079
three people you can call in the middle of the

397
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:05.599
night that won't ask you any questions, They'll just immediately

398
00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:07.880
listen to you. Or three people you can call that

399
00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:11.200
will pray with you. Or two comedy shows or movies

400
00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:13.359
that are funny that used to love that's not going

401
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:15.640
to make you laugh, but even for a fraction of

402
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:17.519
a second, maybe you'll get your mind off of what

403
00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:20.759
you're thinking. So everybody needs to create their own needs assessed.

404
00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:24.519
What support systems do you have in play whatever? And

405
00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:27.240
so really that's one of the thing, one of the

406
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.640
many things that I try to help people with. I

407
00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:32.519
try to help people how to deal with their triggers.

408
00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:37.160
Triggers are you know our mind the amigdala, which I

409
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:41.160
call if I'm speaking to a female a woman, I'll say,

410
00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:43.640
you know the amygdala. The first three letters are Amy.

411
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:45.279
Sometimes you got to talk to Amy if you've get

412
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.359
a trigger, say okay, Amy, thank you for reminding me

413
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:50.759
that I was in danger, but I'm not in danger anymore.

414
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:52.720
You know, talk to yourself. Listen, We've all talked to

415
00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:55.160
ourselves in crisis, So talk to yourself to get out

416
00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:58.480
of crisis. And if you're a guy, sometimes I say

417
00:22:58.519 --> 00:23:03.119
call Almo because our the amiydyalas almond shaped, So say, hey, Almo,

418
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:08.119
there's no hungry tiger in their room right now, looking

419
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.039
at me growling, I'm not in any here. You know,

420
00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:14.440
do some grounding texting. So really, I mean this would

421
00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:17.000
take weeks for me to tell you all of the things,

422
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:19.400
but just some things are just really to get you

423
00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:23.880
under control. Then we get into journaling and somatic exercising

424
00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:27.079
and you know all kinds of stuff that depending on really,

425
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:29.680
because another thing, too is just like what one person

426
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.759
might respond to trauma and the next person might not

427
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:34.640
see trauma. One person might respond to something and another

428
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.559
person might not respond to it. So really, sometimes it's

429
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:40.400
really hit or mess too, and it's trial and error

430
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:42.960
what happens. But there are some definite, tried and true

431
00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:45.279
things to really help people get through this.

432
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:49.519
And as you talk about triggers, you know, they're different

433
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:52.720
approaches to that. Some people say, you know, you're never

434
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:55.480
going to get over them, so you know, learn to

435
00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:57.440
deal with it. I like your idea of kind of

436
00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:00.680
stepping out side to yourself and talking to yourself about

437
00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:03.440
some of those things. Other people talk about how they

438
00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:08.039
can literally move that trigger aside, reframe it whatever, to

439
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:11.079
the point where it's no longer really triggering, or if

440
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:14.119
it does trigger a little bit, you're so mindful and

441
00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:17.680
emotionally intelligent that you look at it and go, oh,

442
00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:20.400
that's one of those triggers that doesn't make any difference anymore,

443
00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:20.960
and it's not.

444
00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:21.720
Going to affect me.

445
00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:26.440
So, as you deal with people in the betrayal trauma,

446
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:30.480
how much effort do you feel needs to be put

447
00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:32.799
into and how much do you put into helping to

448
00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:37.319
somehow deal with those triggers to the point where they

449
00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:39.599
can be put to the side, Not that they'll ever

450
00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:42.119
go away, but they're put to the side so that

451
00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:46.039
the brain is able to develop new neural pathways, and

452
00:24:46.119 --> 00:24:48.400
those neural pathways that had to do with all those

453
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:51.000
triggers have kind of just been put to the side.

454
00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:54.279
Yeah, great question. And let me just say this, when

455
00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:58.240
we are in the acute stage of betrayal, there's no

456
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:02.319
managing betrayal triggered in my opinion, and when we're in

457
00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:04.960
that acute state, what you want to do is get

458
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:08.160
to So there's the the acute stage of betrayal and

459
00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:12.440
then there's the uh, you know, healing and growing from betrayal,

460
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:16.200
and so triggers are on both sides of these. So really,

461
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:20.240
depending on where people are, really at this point, it's

462
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:24.920
managing triggers. Then there's the middle point where you're learning

463
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:31.079
tools and techniques. Now you're actually ruling your triggers. So

464
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:33.359
so for instance, if somebody is in the first three

465
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:35.440
or four months where they just found out let's just

466
00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:39.319
say espousal infidelity, things that you can do is just

467
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:41.880
tell yourself, Okay, when you get out of bed in

468
00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:44.359
the morning, I'm going to get triggered today. I'm going

469
00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:46.680
to get triggered today when I get triggered today, And

470
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:49.720
even while you're talking, you could be getting triggered. The

471
00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:53.559
first couple of months of betrayal, you're waking up in

472
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:55.839
the middle of the night with nightmares, you're waking up

473
00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:58.279
with panic attacks. It's the last thing on your mind.

474
00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:00.440
You're dreaming about it the first thing in the morning.

475
00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:04.200
So tell yourself all of this is normal. It's a

476
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:07.680
part of how my nervous system reacts. I understand that.

477
00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:10.200
Just youve got to talk to yourself. A couple of

478
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:11.960
things you can do. I tell people, you know, hold

479
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:15.039
ice cubes in your hand, splash your face with water,

480
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.680
belt out a song, put a smile on your face.

481
00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:21.000
You're not going to feel happy, but you know it

482
00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:23.000
tricks your brain into saying all is good in the hood.

483
00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:26.559
Choose some gum, because a lot of times we will

484
00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:30.119
tell our nervous system fight like, hey, if you're eating,

485
00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:32.160
you can't be in danger. You can't be running away

486
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:34.720
from a wild lion if you're eating, So choose some gum.

487
00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:37.359
Chewing my help. Another thing too, I think is really

488
00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:41.160
great because amygdala is spasming at this point is throughout

489
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:45.359
some math facts. And the more intense the math facts get,

490
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:50.640
the more you're engaging the frontal cortex and and and

491
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.759
that's being now engaged rather than you're amgdala. So and

492
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:56.359
this is what works great because if let's just say

493
00:26:56.359 --> 00:26:58.759
you're in a work meeting and you're in a boardroom,

494
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.960
but you can't be I need some ice cubes, and

495
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:03.079
I get splashing your face with water. But what you

496
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:05.960
can do is coorplus fours eight. In your mind, a

497
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:08.359
times two is sixteen. Sixteen times two is thirty two

498
00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:10.839
thirty two plus fours thirty seven and the more and

499
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:13.559
that way. Now you're engaging the logic part of your brain,

500
00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:16.559
really taking over the amygdala. So this is in the

501
00:27:16.599 --> 00:27:19.319
first acute part of managing your triggers. One of the

502
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:21.400
things that I tell people is this, this is what

503
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:25.079
like triggers in a lot of ways. Imagine there's a box, right,

504
00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:27.000
There's a box, and on the bottom of that box

505
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:30.799
there's a big sharp now okay, then there's a balloon

506
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:35.960
and it's filled with manure. Okay, So when you experience

507
00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:39.240
some betrayal trauma, it's like that balloon gets released into

508
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:41.880
that box and it starts bouncing all around. Within no

509
00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:44.599
time at all, it lands on the neil explodes. You

510
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:47.440
got manure all over the box. So now you're you're

511
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:49.039
trying to go back and clean it up, clean it up,

512
00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:51.720
but it's overwhelming and you don't even get to clean

513
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:53.759
all of it up before the next balloon is in there,

514
00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:56.640
it explodes, and then you're cleaning up all that manure

515
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:01.240
and you don't even But with time, with time, the

516
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:03.880
balloon shrinks just a little bit and now it goes

517
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:06.759
into the box and maybe it takes two seconds instead

518
00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:08.880
of no seconds at all to land on the nail,

519
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:14.640
and that explodes. Well. With time and supports and techniques,

520
00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:18.039
you can wipe up that manure before the next balloon

521
00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:20.839
hits that nail. Then, with a lot of time and

522
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:25.359
work and dedication, eventually that balloon gets very small to

523
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:28.079
where it takes a while for it to hit the nail.

524
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:30.359
Then just a little bit of manure gets split out

525
00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:31.559
and you're like, oh, let me go in here and

526
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:33.599
just clean this up. Whatever, and then you move on.

527
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:37.319
And then eventually, with a lot of time, work, dedication, commitment,

528
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:45.279
and howd you know, fervitude, fortitude, that balloon is now

529
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:48.640
tiny and instead of manure, it's filled with glitter. And

530
00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:51.720
I'm talking about maybe months or years out. So anyone

531
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:54.160
that has kids that ever played with glitter, it still

532
00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:57.839
gets messy, but it's it's it's it's I'd rather clean

533
00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:00.920
up glitter than manure. So now it takes so long

534
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.400
to hit that now, and when it does, now it's

535
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:05.559
just glitter and that way. A lot of people like

536
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:09.519
driving down the road. Let's just say six years after betrayal,

537
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:11.519
They'll be driving down the road and they'll stop and

538
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:13.720
they'll see a hotel. Let's just say their spouse was

539
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:16.000
gone in a hotel and loyok at their hotel. Oh yeah,

540
00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:18.200
I remember that. Yeah, that was a sucky time in

541
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:21.000
my life. Oh let's green go. That's the balloon with

542
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:23.240
glitter at it, so you'll be reminded of it, but

543
00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:24.960
it will not bring you to your knees like it

544
00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:26.599
did the first kittle before.

545
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:30.599
My Okay, So, percentage wise, you're dealing with what sixty

546
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:32.759
seventy eighty percent relationships?

547
00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:36.359
I would say eighty five to ninety Okay.

548
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.640
So here's my next question. You're talking about betrayal of

549
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:43.319
a spouse. How many what percentage of those that you

550
00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:47.680
work with are able to repair and stay in that

551
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:53.279
relationship versus what percentage need to get out and move

552
00:29:53.319 --> 00:29:55.880
forward in order to deal with that betrayal?

553
00:29:55.920 --> 00:30:01.839
Drauma, I would say a good a good upwards of

554
00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:06.680
seventy percent of people not only rebuild, but have a

555
00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:11.000
much healthier, happier, solid relationship or marriage afterwards.

556
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:13.680
In other words, like I said, they need to disconnect.

557
00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:16.680
No, no, no, they rebuild, stay together.

558
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:18.920
Oh they rebuild. I'm sure I didn't. I didn't hear

559
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:19.440
you saying.

560
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:22.960
Oh no, no, yeah, no, no no, because like I

561
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:27.279
said before, infidelity, Well, okay, I'm about to trigger some

562
00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:30.240
people that listen to this, But okay, a lot of

563
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:35.839
professionals in my field say, infidelity is the is the

564
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:38.359
best gift wrapped in the worst packaging.

565
00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:42.119
And I'm going to tell you why. The couples that

566
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:49.279
do heal and rebuild and live happily even after say,

567
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.960
oh my gosh, I never We've been married fifteen years

568
00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:56.519
and I never felt so close with my partner, my spouse.

569
00:30:56.599 --> 00:30:59.920
I've never loved them, I've never understood them. I hate

570
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:03.160
what we went through, but I love where we are now.

571
00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:07.039
So absolutely it was. This is why I one of

572
00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:08.799
the things I try to do, depending on where people

573
00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:11.279
are on the dealing journey, is let's start looking at

574
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:15.359
the silver linings of this tragedy. What are the silver linings?

575
00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:18.039
And I know I probably just lost a lot of

576
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:20.359
listeners because they're like this guy's a freakazor no way.

577
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:24.160
But one of the best feelings in the world, doctor Doug,

578
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.960
and it's happened on multiple occasions, is when couples come

579
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:31.680
to me and say, mister Jay, I found out my husband,

580
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:35.279
my wife, my partner, whatever, was having an affair, and

581
00:31:35.559 --> 00:31:40.880
we were coming to you because we want to walk

582
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:44.519
our separate ways as civil as possible. And then eight

583
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:48.119
months to two years later, I'm getting pictures from Hawaii

584
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:51.279
or wherever saying we renewed our wedding vowels and we

585
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:53.200
wouldn't have been able to do it without you, so

586
00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:59.680
thank you. It's not only possible, it's it's it's common. Now.

587
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:04.200
At the same point, there's people that can't rebuild, just can't.

588
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.279
And that's because their spouse isn't willing to do the work,

589
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:10.759
or there's way too much childhood trauma and they and

590
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:14.440
and it's too much and I and whatever. I'm not

591
00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:17.480
here to tell anybody what to do. I'm just here

592
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:21.480
to stir their boat into commer waters and they make

593
00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:22.599
the decisions.

594
00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:25.799
And as you talk about doing the work, let's say

595
00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:29.799
that someone you know, okay, I forgive you and that

596
00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:36.119
and how much is still damaged when an individual who

597
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:42.160
has been the individual that is actually cheated, okay, or betrayed.

598
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:44.880
Still has that sense of.

599
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:50.839
Guilt and ultimately, over a period of years, ultimately that

600
00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:52.839
creates a situation where.

601
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:56.000
They ultimately split up. How often is that? So, I

602
00:32:56.079 --> 00:32:58.920
guess my question is you're dealing with forgiveness.

603
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:05.000
You're dealing with of taking responsibility for behavior, changing behavior,

604
00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:11.359
Also the emotions and trauma to the individual who did it,

605
00:33:11.400 --> 00:33:14.079
is now feeling the guilt and the shame of what

606
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:17.400
they did. How do you deal with all of that

607
00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:19.599
and or all of those elements of what you have

608
00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:20.440
to deal with.

609
00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:23.440
One hundred percent? And if you don't deal with your issues,

610
00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:26.839
your issues will deal with you. So I say all

611
00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:30.480
the time, the person who stepped out has just as

612
00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:34.119
much work, if not more, than the person who was faithful.

613
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:37.400
But what happens is and I understand it, I completely

614
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:41.279
understand it, so much or at all of the focus

615
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:43.680
is on the person who got hurt that the person

616
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:46.039
who stepped out is on the back burner, and for

617
00:33:46.119 --> 00:33:51.039
a time, rightfully so, However, I always say, infidelity starts

618
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:55.160
in childhood, So we need to do that spiritual and

619
00:33:55.279 --> 00:34:00.519
emotional and mental and psychological surgery to understand where did

620
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:02.960
this come from. Now, I don't want to get into this,

621
00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:05.559
and I know people are probably thinking I'm crazy already.

622
00:34:05.799 --> 00:34:08.400
There are some biological links in fidelity.

623
00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:09.519
I'm sure to say that again.

624
00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:13.800
There are some biological links that have been research found

625
00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:21.280
for infidelity. Obviously, there's childhood trauma, there's developmental things that happen,

626
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:27.719
there's experiences and examples. So every time I'm deal talking

627
00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:30.920
to somebody who stepped out of a relationship, one of

628
00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:32.639
the things that we do is we work on their

629
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:35.239
why why did you do this? And one of the

630
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:38.400
things that I tell people is your why needs to

631
00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:42.480
start before you even met your current spouse or partner.

632
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:44.639
So I don't want to hear, well, she wouldn't give

633
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:48.519
me sex anymore, he wouldn't let me go grocery shopping. No, no, no, no,

634
00:34:48.519 --> 00:34:52.000
no no no no. This needs to this needs to

635
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:55.880
This needs to begin with you and with you, and

636
00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:58.559
it starts before you even met this person. Now, the

637
00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:02.159
person you're with could have tributing components, right you know

638
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:05.480
that maybe that you know that maybe led to the

639
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:08.280
gun being fired. But these bullets were already in the

640
00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:11.199
gun before you met so let let's find out where

641
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:12.000
these bullets.

642
00:35:11.719 --> 00:35:14.320
Came well, and you talk about it, and you know,

643
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:17.559
I think there's some areas you're not wanting to say that.

644
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:20.400
I'm going to say it anyway. You know, Number one,

645
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:24.480
which is obvious is childhood trauma, and oftentimes that childhood

646
00:35:24.519 --> 00:35:28.519
trauma isn't remembered and sometimes you just you know, had

647
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:31.679
those inclinations and yet where does that come from?

648
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:34.039
And then beyond that, and I.

649
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:36.880
Think people are starting to understand this more and science

650
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:41.559
is starting to show this that there's heredity issues. You've

651
00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:44.960
got DNA memory and oftentimes it's just like you know,

652
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:50.440
they talk about alcoholism, they talk about you know, you know,

653
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:54.760
being kind of physically abusive, and so often you can

654
00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:58.920
trace that historically to previous ancestors.

655
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.559
And I would say, and I want your opinion on.

656
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:05.559
This, is that even isn't that even an issue that

657
00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:08.039
can come up, that there's some DNA memory in there

658
00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:11.360
that you're not even aware of that can instigate that

659
00:36:11.400 --> 00:36:12.199
type of behavior.

660
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:16.360
Listen personally, yes, now you can be talking to somebody

661
00:36:16.360 --> 00:36:18.679
else in my field. The next podcast that will say, no,

662
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:25.400
studies don't show that, but there are oh man, the

663
00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:30.199
word is eluding me. It's uh, it's the characteristics that

664
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:34.800
sit on top of epigenetics, epigenetic epigenetics. I don't know

665
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:37.880
why that word just didn't come to me. Absolutely, one

666
00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:41.760
hundred percent, doctor Doug, without question. Now, I want to

667
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:44.440
make it very clear that people listening, we are not

668
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.559
justifying your spouse having an affair because of that the no, no,

669
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:51.440
absolutely not make it very clear. But that is something

670
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:55.400
that we need to consider when we are trying to

671
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:58.599
do some digging to say where you know where it's

672
00:36:58.599 --> 00:36:59.960
the same thing if you go to the hospital and say,

673
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:01.599
you know, did you have any parents that had a

674
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:04.199
heart attacker? Did your grandparents have a heart attack? Or

675
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:07.039
you know cancer? You know, is it in the lineage?

676
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:10.079
So it's you know, it's one of many, many, many

677
00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:11.280
contributed components.

678
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:16.519
Possibly well, and doesn't it help the perpetrator to be

679
00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:21.280
able to go back and maybe not totally determine it,

680
00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:25.480
but have enough understanding to realize that, hey, this is

681
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:30.719
something that came not necessarily that I created, but it

682
00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:34.440
is an epigenetic type of situation that if once I'm

683
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:38.280
aware of that, doesn't that help the individual to then

684
00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:42.159
start to deal with that and overcome those tendencies and

685
00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:43.239
those inclinations.

686
00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:49.039
Yes, it does. It helps both parties because I think

687
00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:51.880
knowledge is power. It helps the person who was in

688
00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:56.000
their relationship understand, you know what, I'm not excusing their

689
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:00.159
behavior at all, because there's still a grown man. I

690
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:02.159
don't want to say the word there's you know, and

691
00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:04.320
they know right from wrong. And I want to make

692
00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:07.079
sure nobody listening is taking any of this as an excuse,

693
00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:13.800
justification or rationalization that that could be a But yes, absolutely,

694
00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:20.480
that's that's a contributing component. But but similar to childhood experiences.

695
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:22.400
You know, if somebody was raised in a family where

696
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:25.679
you know, their mother or their father had multiple boyfriends

697
00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:29.920
and girlfriends or something, their tolerance level could could be

698
00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:32.360
a little bit lower than somebody who you know, had

699
00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:34.920
came from a childhood where their parents were happily married

700
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:38.599
with no infidelity for fifty years. These you know, there's

701
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:41.119
like I said, we could come into this world and

702
00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:46.039
come into marriage as a loaded gun, and then stressors

703
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:49.760
of the here and now a relationship challenges can can

704
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:52.239
pull that trigger. But yeah, we need to find out

705
00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:54.760
where that loaded gun came from, where those bullets came from.

706
00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:59.079
And one of the components, certainly is epigenetics pre verbal.

707
00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:03.199
You know even you know, you know our hypocampus, which

708
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:07.239
is in for the most part, in control of recording time, date, location.

709
00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:11.559
If we have trauma pre verbal, certainly, this is why

710
00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:14.480
you have a lot of somatic work. That's important. There

711
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:17.800
are some people who cannot express what they want to express,

712
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:20.840
but they will power in a corner and cry and scream.

713
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:23.320
And maybe that's because when they were two and their

714
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:26.239
father came into their room to sexually abuse them, or

715
00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:28.559
their mother came into the room to beat them, they

716
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:31.800
didn't have words for it, but behaviorally, that's what they did,

717
00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:34.400
and that's what they'll resort to when you're trying to

718
00:39:34.440 --> 00:39:37.119
work on that trauma. So it could get very deep

719
00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:37.760
and intense.

720
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:41.960
Yeah, well, let's talk about forgiveness, because as I think

721
00:39:41.960 --> 00:39:44.559
about forgiveness, I think there's two elements here that come in.

722
00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:48.840
Number one is forgiveness of the individual who betrayed you,

723
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:52.840
and number two, the person that did the They train

724
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:58.320
forgiving themselves for that behavior and the guilt and potentially

725
00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:00.320
the shame that they feel for having to that.

726
00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:03.920
Yeah, listen, on the form of forgiveness, we can get

727
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:07.159
all kinds of go into detail. All right, let's do

728
00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:12.119
for instance, if I'm talking to the person who is

729
00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:15.159
cheated on again, we're just using infidelity as an example.

730
00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:18.440
Number one. One of the first things I do is

731
00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:21.960
have them define what forgiveness is. Because doctor Doug, forgiveness

732
00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:24.039
to you is completely different from what it means to me.

733
00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:27.239
You have to define what forgiveness means to you, number one.

734
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:30.119
Number two, I tell the person who is cheated on,

735
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:34.119
you need to forgive yourself. What does that mean? Forgive

736
00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:40.519
yourself for overlooking the pink and red flags. Forgive yourself

737
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:43.840
by not having or enforcing your boundaries. Forgive yourself for

738
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:46.079
believing all the lies your mother and father told you

739
00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:49.559
that you were worthless. Forgive yourself, so first and foremost,

740
00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:53.760
it's defining it. Then forgiving yourself. Now, I'm not going

741
00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:55.719
to say that you can't give what you don't have,

742
00:40:56.119 --> 00:40:58.840
but I think it's easier if you possess it to

743
00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:00.800
then be able to offer it. Because a lot of

744
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:02.280
people are like, I don't even know what the hell

745
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:05.000
forgiveness means. Sorry to swear, I don't even know what

746
00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:07.119
what does it mean to forgive? And you know, blah,

747
00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:10.079
blah blah. Number two, forgiveness is certainly not for the

748
00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:12.320
other person's forgiveness, is you. I don't even like the

749
00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:15.760
word forgiveness. I call it self love. And here the

750
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:18.760
other thing, too, is we not only have to when

751
00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:21.559
it comes to our partner or anyone, we not only

752
00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:23.880
have to forgive the fact, but we have to forgive

753
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:26.119
the impact. This is what I mean. If I come

754
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:28.000
into your house right now, right and I get one

755
00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:30.800
thousand dollars out of your dresser drawer, and you say,

756
00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:32.559
mister j I need that money back, and I'm like,

757
00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:34.400
you know, no, no, no, not going to give it

758
00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:35.519
back to you. And you're like, well, I need my

759
00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:38.440
thousand dollars, you know whatever. Well, after you ask me

760
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:41.480
that for so long and I keep saying no, You're like,

761
00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:44.000
forget it. I'm not going to charge you anymore. I'm

762
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.599
not going to expect you to give it back to me.

763
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:49.360
I'm going to relinquish the tie we have between each other.

764
00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:51.559
And that tie is that you owe me money. You

765
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:55.840
don't owe me any more money whatever. So you forgave

766
00:41:55.880 --> 00:41:59.639
me for the fact, right, okay, But now six months

767
00:41:59.719 --> 00:42:03.480
down the road, now you are getting thrown out of

768
00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:06.559
your house because you can't pay your mortgage or your

769
00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:10.320
rent because I screwed you by taking that thousand dollars

770
00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:13.239
and you got behind on bills and now you have

771
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:16.679
a foreclosure or whatever. Well, now you're impacted by what

772
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:19.440
I did, So you're gonna have to forgive the impact too.

773
00:42:19.639 --> 00:42:21.639
When it comes to betrail trauma, there's no such thing

774
00:42:21.639 --> 00:42:25.599
as one or two impacts. There's many. So forgiveness is

775
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:28.400
not a one and done. It's an everyday occurrence. You

776
00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:31.599
have to not only forgive the fact, forgive the impact.

777
00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:34.880
And it's and it's a journey. Forgiveness is a journey.

778
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:39.320
And sometimes I tell people, if you can't forgive, can

779
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:41.639
you say you know what I want to forgive? And

780
00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:44.000
if you can't go there, can you say I want

781
00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:47.440
to want to forgive, So start somewhere and just work

782
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:50.039
your way out. But keep in mind, forgiveness basically just

783
00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:53.719
cuts those handcuffs off you. It doesn't. It does not

784
00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:56.559
mean I excuse what they did. I love what they did,

785
00:42:56.599 --> 00:42:59.119
I accept what they did. I'm fine with what they did. No,

786
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:03.800
it's I'm I'm done carrying this one hundred pound rocksack

787
00:43:03.880 --> 00:43:06.519
on my back. And it's time I put it down.

788
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:08.719
Okay, And and I think what you said is so

789
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:11.599
important that you can't forgive someone.

790
00:43:11.320 --> 00:43:13.400
Else until you've learned to forgive yourself.

791
00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:16.960
And and you talk about self love and I and

792
00:43:17.079 --> 00:43:19.719
you know, you talk a little bit about theology here,

793
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:21.719
and I know you have a background in that.

794
00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:24.880
I think of I think of something in the New.

795
00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:28.400
Testament where where you know, Christ says, you know, the

796
00:43:28.440 --> 00:43:32.199
greatest commandment is love God, and then the second love

797
00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:35.280
your neighbor as yourself. And I've looked at that, and

798
00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:38.519
what has come to my mind is that what he's

799
00:43:38.599 --> 00:43:41.719
really saying is you can only love your neighbor as

800
00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:45.599
much as you love yourself. And when you talk about forgiveness,

801
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:48.840
the same thing, you can only forgive someone to the

802
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:52.039
degree that you have allowed and learned to forgive yourself.

803
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:52.920
Yeah.

804
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:55.159
Yeah, you know. One of one of the things speaking of,

805
00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:57.360
you know, the Bible, one of the things that I

806
00:43:57.440 --> 00:43:59.840
try to if I'm if I'm talking with a couple

807
00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:04.159
that has a deep faith background or walk with walk

808
00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:08.679
with faith, I'll say, uh, one of the things that

809
00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:11.239
I want you to hear from your partner is this.

810
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:14.519
So let's just say there's a couple and we're working,

811
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:19.320
and the couple the person who stepped out. I want

812
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:22.679
them to tell their the person who they hurt and

813
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:26.800
broke trust with this statement. I'm so sorry I could

814
00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:30.920
not protect you from my warm because it's because listen, Infidelity,

815
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:34.119
in my opinion, is much like cutting yourself. We do

816
00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:39.079
it to non distract, avoid cope with something. Now the

817
00:44:39.159 --> 00:44:41.800
other person. If somebody's a deep faith, I try, and

818
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:44.400
depending on where they are, I wouldn't certainly do this

819
00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:46.639
in the first four months, depending on where they are.

820
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:49.639
Can you understand why Jesus said, Father, forgive them for

821
00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:52.719
they know not what they did. Because there's a lot

822
00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:55.920
of people our wounds are guiding us.

823
00:44:56.119 --> 00:44:58.920
Yes, and I think I think that is so so

824
00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:02.559
essential and times up. Can you believe that we've been

825
00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:08.079
going no? No, So as we close Number one, how

826
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:09.199
do people find your book?

827
00:45:09.559 --> 00:45:09.719
Oh?

828
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:12.480
My lord, you can find my book me anywhere on

829
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:15.760
my website. It's mister j Relationship Coach dot com. And listen,

830
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:18.239
I'm gonna tell you something. Even if people never want

831
00:45:18.280 --> 00:45:20.960
to see my face, hear my voice, do anything whatever,

832
00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:23.519
I have a lot of free resources on my website.

833
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:25.840
So even if they just go to my website, misterj

834
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:28.679
Relationship Coach dot com, and just take advantage of my

835
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:32.119
free resources because there's a lot of people in a

836
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:34.400
lot of me, So please just take advantage of whatever

837
00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:34.760
I have to.

838
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:37.719
Great And if you were to share a final message

839
00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:42.800
with people that are suffering from those difficulties and betrayal trauma,

840
00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:44.360
what would you say to them?

841
00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:47.239
Let me just say this, Nobody in the history of

842
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:50.719
mankind ever died from the snake bite. What people die

843
00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:53.599
from is when the poison enters your vein and hits

844
00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:56.480
to your heart. So I always say, other people give

845
00:45:56.559 --> 00:45:59.679
us pain, we give ourselves suffering. If a snake bites you,

846
00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:02.079
don't pick it up and keep letting that venom enter

847
00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:05.320
into your brain. Stop stop the poison from getting to

848
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:09.039
your heart. Immediately. If somebody hurts you, immediately work on

849
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:11.519
how do you grow? How do you forgive? How do

850
00:46:11.559 --> 00:46:14.000
you walk in love that way you are not making

851
00:46:14.039 --> 00:46:14.679
yourself suffer?

852
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:16.800
Love it, love it well, and thank you.

853
00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:19.199
And you know what, Jay, one of the things I

854
00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:21.480
love is the fact that on your website you have

855
00:46:21.599 --> 00:46:23.920
things that you're willing to give to others. And again,

856
00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:27.840
you know, part of this whole broadcast and podcast is

857
00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:30.920
about making a difference in people's lives, and here you

858
00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:34.880
are doing that professionally, but also you're willing to share

859
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:37.440
that with no cost to people. And I just want

860
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:39.800
to compliment you and give you kudos for that.

861
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:41.920
Thank you, doctor Doug. I appreciate that.

862
00:46:41.800 --> 00:46:43.239
You've thanks so much.

863
00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:46.800
I really appreciate your insights. Folks, thanks for listening. I

864
00:46:46.840 --> 00:46:49.079
hope you really enjoyed this. Look forward to having you

865
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:52.320
join us again soon. So this is doctor Doug saying,

866
00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:53.519
no mistake