From Punishment to Peace

0:01 At the end of the day, it's not about what you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up, who you've made better, It's about what you've given back. Denzel Washington, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you to do the same. Tom, how are you doing? Wonderful, doctor Doug. How are you hey, It's great to have you on this show. You know, it's fascinating to me how life experiences bring us to a certain point in our lives, and how some people have been able to overcome those experiences and others are still struggling with those experiences. And you've written a book called Punishment to Peace, which in my mind is just an amazing title. I'd love for you to share with the audience just briefly, and then we'll get into things a little bit more. But what what motivated you ultimately to write this book? Uh?

1:06 Well, again, thank you, doctor Doug for for being on your show. I appreciate that. Uh uh, that's a that's the question. I think that did I think about a lot in in that I spent an incredible amount of my life thinking that I'm supposed to live a life a certain way, and I was trained to do that from my youth, and and so I woke up one day and really it was a confluence of several things. Three things happened that said I've got to go on a journey. And the journey was that was the first step towards writing the book. But the journey itself came from an awakening that my business partner and I decided to close the business down that we had, and thus I didn't have an office to go to. And then my second marriage failed, so I didn't have a home to go to. And then the obsession that I had to prove myself in search of my father's love he passes away. And so the all of this of living the life trying to prove myself and ended up falling into some addictions of not the legal, not the illegal kind, but others. UH put me in the direction of saying, I've got to find another way to find who Tom Harrison is. That I lost, I had a hole in my soul basically, and so I reconnected with a childhood a family member,

2:37 a same age uncle, and that we grew up very close together but went diametrically different paths, and we both grew up in abuse. And so it was the start of that journey and really the eye opening experiences that I learned from that uncle, that that said, this is a story that it cannot just be something that this person and myself experienced it. There is there is something very meaningful potentially in what we would go through. And so I started recording it and what they're going to it now began to write well, and you know, it's so fascinating that we all, we all go through different experiences in our lives, and some people allow that to cause them to move into a victim mode that they're never able to get out of. And then there are others that you know, and we're going to get into this more, I know, but you know, such as yourself that was able to take that go through a journey and literally write about it, which you know, if you're able to write, or is the UK you recorded and then it was written, but being able to do that, it not only affected you, but it is going to affect hundreds, if not hundreds of thousands of lives who will read that and realize that, guess what, there's hope.

3:55 You know, as I mentioned to you, I'm over here in Thailand right now, and so so I've been doing a lot of different studying and so forth. And one of the things every once in a while and not all the time, that every once in a while I sit back and think, you know what, I feel such peace? Why is that now? Obviously then I lose that, but every once in a while, and so the name of your book, From Punishment to Peace really hit me because I think for all of us, the ability to ultimately feel peace in our lives is something that is not only hoped for and desired for, but should be the goal for all of us. So what I'd love for you to do is, let's go back to the beginning. I like you to share your story and really talk about what you went through, and then as you met and worked with his relative, talk a little bit about that. And when I find fascinating. You know, you said he went down one path.

4:54 You went down the different path. And it's interesting that your path was, as you say, motivated by the things that you experienced in your childhood. So I'd love for you to just get into that thank you, thank you, I appreciate it. Well, the story actually starts when a man is a thirty three. He was a devout Christian. I mean he had Jesus Saves on his delivery truck. I mean he was he wore his faith prominently. He was thirty three, he died from the UI accident. Someone hit him and hit his gas tank and exploded, and he left behind a widow and four four children, ages one through fourteen. And that really was the start of this whole list of things, that a line of things that ended up happening. And the point here is that the two characters would have never been born if that man hadn't died. And that's to me so profound to begin us story that way. But these two the main characters, they were kids that every set of parents would love to have. They were good hearted kids, they tried to please, they were just Ananda manners, all that kind of stuff. But unfortunately, both kids grew up with highly abusive fathers.

6:17 So that widow remarried had a fit child, which is the you uncle. Character's name is John, and he and his father had a very deep, dark ass too, which was doubled in the book, and he was physically abusive. He ended up molesting his stepsisters, John's half sisters, John's half sisters. It's just a very disruptive childhood for him. And then the other character, myself, the oldest daughter, ended up having a child at sixteen with my father who was and looking back, was bipolar. He had some very severe issues himself, highly narcissistic, and so he didn't do the physical abuse, be did of a heavy, heavy emotional abuse growing up.

7:09 And so if you can imagine these two household environments for the first eighteen to twenty years of your life, having to be scared of whether you're going to get beaten or whether you're going to be so your legs cut out from under you emotionally, almost constantly, and it was a challenge. And so for both of these characters they had to figure out how to evolve into adulthood with that as part of their DNA. And so for John, he started soothing physically soothing early with started drugs and alcohol at thirteen and became dependent on both for virtually all of his life. Was homeless. Most of his life was in and out of the judicial system. In five different states at least four dozen times, and so he struggled with life. He's certainly did for the nephew character. Myself, I somehow got a college education, some barely got into college, and began to feel success and some form of recognition, something in which I did not have in my first twenty years. And so I became really kind of focused on that, and I became an overachiever. So one job that wasn't good enough that had to be out there, it had to be a higher paying job. And if that higher paying job had a better title, or a better location or with a better company, or I had to move across I ended up moving across the country four times. I

8:41 become addicted to success, and as a result of that, Doctor Doug, I became addicted myself to materialism, to hedonism, and again back to success for success sake. And unfortunately, we both both characters left a wake behind them with anyone that came along us during our journey. We were not the easiest people in the world to be with. And translation to that is the punished of the two characters were punished in their youth, became basically punishers themselves. Well you know, it's and I want to interrupt you for just a minute here because it fascinates me that, you know, we talk about how some people with that tremendous abuse end up into drugs and homelessness and so forth, which you know, that story in itself as you think about that, and as we think about all of the homeless people in the world, and sometimes there's so much distaste for them, and yet we really don't understand what was behind them, mean where they're at now. In your case, you know, you saw success, which I think we all do to a certain degree. But what did you find as you look back? What did you find that that success was doing for you from the standpoint of pushing aside or

10:13 covering up because I want to use the word covering up rather than acknowledging, because it sounds to me like that's what you were talking about, covering up those earlier years. What was that success doing for you mentally, that covering up those earlier years that made you feel better? And then as you say, you got into some other issues. Well, thank you for that question. And that's so important. Is that for me, I let the idea that one house wasn't enough. Here Dad, see that I've got now a second home, a vacation home, or maybe a third home, or a new car this year. The euphoria associated with it, we all have it, the euphoria of a great meal, or a new car or something that we've done, a great trip. It's great and it's fine. It's rewarding, but it's fleeting. And going back to that term of peace, euphoria and peace are completely you know, they are like almost in opposite directions as to what they are. And in this case, because I had this obsession to prove my father wrong, I was almost I was doing everything I could to raise that bar inside me to prove to him that I was worthy of his love. And unfortunately I could never get that high. I could never hit that mark. Because of his challenges. He couldn't accept he was not

11:43 capable, given his upbringing and who he was. He couldn't accept that, and so he went through six marriages. And so there lies I think a lot of again, something I learned in my youth. I wanted to be the antithesis of it by my father in many cases, and so I said, I'm only going to be married once, so I'll end up now my third and last marriage, doctor Doug believing that's it. But I think we tried. For me, I spent all my life trying to figure out how to please a man that couldn't be pleased. And I did everything I could around that, and yet again, the euphoria of what I was doing to myself with my successes was still leaving me a big hole in who I was.

12:30 I was still searching and not knowing what to find. And that was really, I think the most frustrating for the people around me, the people that cared about well. And then you had the experience of meeting your uncle, and from what you're saying, that really changed everything. I'd love for you to share with the audience that part of your story and how did that come about and what did that bring together. Well, when I decided to kind of walk away from from everything and say I've got to find a better version of who I am, I don't know where to find it, and I got to start. I started by just picking off certain family members. And the one family member that I had to spend a little bit of time thinking about was my uncle John in Memphis, back in Memphis, in our hometown, and so we had not seen each other, talk to each other in twenty years and a bitterly back to what you were saying earlier, Doctor Doug. We look at the homeless as though, well, you know what, they got themselves there, their own minium, our own drugs. You can't get them off of it. You can give them money, but what are they going to do with it? That's always been the challenge, I think for many of us, trying to explore how to react or interact with homeless homelessness. And this was no different. In reconnecting with my uncle, I've always lifelong thought he deserved it. He was reckless, you can now change him. And I just kind of washed my hands up. But I

14:01 thought, I've got the he has the knowledge, has some knowledge of my past, of our past, of the connected tissue that would potentially help me and him. Admittedly, I kind of was a little bit more selfish. I wanted to feel better about myself, so I connected with him. We started, and we started with one meal, but then that turned into something amazing, Doctor Dog. It started a series of road trips and the and the subtitle of the book is road Trips to Forgiveness, And we started a series of what I've written six road trips where we reconnect and we began to peel the onion of who we were, of who we were really and bearing our most difficult moments, our most difficult things that have happened to us, and ultimately the pride that we were having and the recognition of the fact that we were doing damage to others that began to come out and getting back to the whole finish line of peace. Piece is a finish line, and to get there that it has you have to take multiple steps. You have to take multiple road trips in our case, but the start of it is to really pull out of each one of us, and in particular and during this story, who we were, why we ended up where we ended up, and then begin to figure out a way to solve that, to not necessarily solve it, but to soothe it. And if we could get to the

15:33 point where we begin to forgive the wrongdoers, including ourselves, that could be the ultimate finish line to the pursuit of peace and shaking off the punishments of our past. So it was an amazing experience, and he was teaching me, and back to your question, he began to really show me a heart that I knew I thought I had, but he continued to have during the most difficult life I've ever known any aboudy in my life. And part of his journey was going back and having him reconnect with his father, who he hadn't seen him four years. He was in a nursing home back on the other side of the state of Tennessee. And I didn't know whether me facilitating that first connection after so long, John was going to do something physically bad doing or what. I didn't know what to expect, But what ended up happening was probably the most beautiful moment about life. And I can share more, but there's part of it that other go with the leaf or anyone that might need the book, but it was an amazing story. Well, and you know, one of the things you talk about in the book, I know is the influence of others. I love to follow different people and what they're say, and I'm following a couple of Buddhist monks and one of the things that I picked up just the other day was he was talking about how we need to be so careful with the people that we surround ourselves with because of their influence, either for good or for not good? And I know

17:07 that you talk, you know, as a major theme in your book about the influence of others. Can you can you talk about that a little bit and you know, what are some of those influences and what are good, what's bad? And how do they affect us? And how do we allow them to affect us? That's a good question. I think that Martin Luther King's had a great quota says life is it about love? Jevy, It's about quality, And I think the antithesis of qualities punishment. I think we all have our punishments. I got rejected about day for when I was an eighteen year old. I didn't like that, so luckily enough I didn't carry that for the next thirty years. But some of those punishments, if we received them early in our life, for long periods of our life, and from the people who who are in control of our eating and our sleeping and a roof over our head, we carry those, I think a lot deeper than any other punishment. And so how to how to address that is really important in the sense of do we let other influencers in general, anybody else Once we get to be an adult we get to control who we let in our lives, and we were forced to have those people. You know, we didn't get to choose our parents were or all the other influencers good and bad during our early years. But we do have someone of a choice as to who we let in. And when I say somewhat, we may fall

18:38 in love with someone but they and marry them, but they may not be the best person in the world for us in the long run. And I'm not saying not advocating anything other than a one marriage society, but the point here is it's a challenge as to who you let in, and when you let in, you could be trapped into maybe being influenced by other people that aren't going to be a positive to you. But I was extremely fortunate to have both other family members and then mentors I was. I was. What I didn't get is from my father and that mentoring and that direction I was almost hungry for in the search through my career as primarily for career focus, and it wasn't until the later years where I became more of a spiritual focused influences influence servers, and once that hit then really that's where everything started to kind of open up, and you know, the verizons started to shine for me. But no doubt the challenge of what influencers can do to us, both positively or negatively. But then the huge positives can purely and so easily alter our life trajection trajectory, excuse me. And so we have to be careful, We have to be always monitoring that. And how do you judge it? How do you how do you literally judge was went on around you?

20:00 The people that you're surrounding yourself with their quote influences, whatever that happens to be. How can you judge and say to yourself, this is a good influencer, and you know what, this one isn't a good influencer, and I need to distance myself or move away and disconnect from this influencer. That's an incredible question. It's a very difficult question because I think a lot of people have I don't want to overuse this word, but clearly my father was a narcissist. I've studied narcissism quite a bit, and narcissists are extremely charming, They can be loving. In my dad's case, he had various different women decide to marry and that's a big step and so they could be charming and sweet, but then unfortunately he also suffered from bipolar and so you can see the other side of that. Uh. It's it's not easy.

21:02 It takes probably more iterations of understanding and of situations and circumstances happening to you. Uh and it may be in some cases too late, but making the hard decision to kind of go, you're not you're not this isn't right and and understanding that, and understanding that if you get up every morning and you dread the day because there's someone whether it be an employer, whether it be your spouse, whether it be even an adult child, if you sense and feel like you've been lack a better way of saying it, abused, you have to figure out a way to distance yourself. First, slowly, so you make sure that you don't completely break uh and and make and make a big mistake. But once you realize that it's that's there, you have to make that hard decision and break away, you know. And it's interesting.

21:56 One of the things I find, as I've interviewed a number of people and as I've studied and researched this out, I find that one of the most difficult aspects of someone's life that has gone through these challenges early on in their lives is to reach a point of awareness to where all of a sudden they're able to sit back and go, you know what, I do not like my life. Because many people say I don't like my life, but they don't do anything about it. But then there are those that suddenly go and they become aware that, you know what, this doesn't have to be this way, and quite frankly, I'm the one that can take responsibility to change it. So here's my question for you. What was the Was it one experience? Was there an aha moment for you or what was it that suddenly stopped you in your tracks in the direction you were going and you said to yourself, I've got to change. I think it was the It was the divorce from my second wife. Again, I was a product of multidivorced father.

23:14 I knew the pain that that exhibited had to me to others, But that was that just barely scratched the surface of the pain that I'm sure that existed all around that. And I wanted to be better than that. I strived to be better that from a very early age, I said, I want to be different than how my father has treated me and how my father treated others, and so to have experienced the first divorce was was traumatizing and that was on me, but the second one it was on me too, of course, but it didn't have to happen. And I think that was the aha moment where I said I'm lost. I had all this stuff, I had what everything the world would want to get or I could ever have physically, but I failed to have a connection, a spiritual and personal connection with someone that I cared deeply about, that they felt comfortable with me, they could see me as someone that will always be special in their life, and that they want to do life with me, And to have that feeling that they and someone didn't want to do that was was terrifying for me.

24:30 Terrifying but also heartbreaking. And I said, I've got to stop whatever hamster will I'm on. I've got I've got to shut it down, and I've got to find if there's another part of who was, another version of who I am. And that wasn't easy because that means I had to own, I had to resurrect things. I had to talk to a lot of people. People said, well, Tom, you did this once or you did this all the time, and I had to start owning that. And that's the hardest part of ever, of all of this, I assure me know that it is and and to be able, I mean, it really takes courage to own the personal responsibility. There's so many times that we can blame this person and that person and so on and so forth in this situation whatever.

25:12 But the reality is that we own it. If even if something comes to us in a certain way that we don't want, the reality is is we probably have drawn that towards us because of those beliefs and what is literally motivating us, so we visualize ultimately what comes to pass. So the responsibility, I think is so so important to be able to say, okay, you know I've had enough now. The question that you keep bringing up the word spiritual, So I'd like for you to define for the audience what you mean by that spiritual connection. Okay, I'm I thought I was a Christian all through most of a lot. I mean, I went to church.

26:02 My grandparents were that took me to church. I went to school, I went to church when I was away to school. On my own I knew who God was and who Christ was. I didn't know what the Holy Spirit was. But you know, since I never knew it, I didn't really think much about it. I'd write checks to churches when they had fun, when they needed operating funds and what I mean. But it was always off and on. And I made attempts to read the Bible. I'll probably made twelve attempts in my entire life to read the Bible. Never got out of Genesis. I couldn't get through all the begatting. I couldn't brai is, which is an analytical brain. I couldn't make sense of the Bible other than certain verses. And so I really, even though I consider myself a Christian, really wasn't. And so to to really go through the experience that I went through with my uncle, my uncle when he started attempting UH rehab, many of those are spiritual or Christian focused, Yes, and it's really something we got. We want to hold onto something and really try to strive uh to to to reach that mark. And and and so for for me, I I latched on to a gentleman who ran a small group's uh UH ministry in Atlanta, and uh, he had that and doctor Joe we were talking about peace. He had the face of peace. And I think I've met

27:34 maybe five people in my life and you might be the sixth one now that I'm thank you, But I've met just very few people that had that look about them. And when I first met him, it was in a business environment. We were sitting together and I said, and I was busy. I said, you know what, it was my business, it was my bestment. And my business partner said, we're gonna have a spiritual advisor to go. Really, I'm your partner, you know, and you're just now telling me that. And he's bringing in this guy in an office. I said, okay, help me with him. And I was busy. I said, I don't think we've got time for God and this guy to be in our office because we're running a business. Where's how stupid was that coming? But anyway, so he begins to kind of tell me about his mystery and then really begins to tell me about a story, and his story ductor Dunk, mirrored mine, where he was all focused on career and focused on trying to make the money and he was neglecting his wife and children, name, and he had gotten a point of close to being divorced, and he woke up one day went to a silent retreat, which I don't know you've ever been to a silent retreat. But you go for two three days somewhere using a monastery somewhere, and you'll say a word for three days, and you get fed, you got a bed, but it's between you and God, and that's it. And he said, after three days of that, he came back and he started crying. He cried. He said, I hadn't cry. It says my mother's He said, he didn't cry at his mother's passing. At her funeral, he breaks down. And the next day he walks away from his fortune fifty company, high level career and starts his

29:08 ministry. And he'd been doing it for about fifteen years at the time. And I'll tell you it was just I was not as much enamored by the fact that he had a ministry as much as two things he had that peace and his story resembled mine. And this was the opening, doctor Duck to my journey of saying, I need to be around people who can share with me and me share with them my stories, our stories, so that so we can, as guys, well, we don't like sharing, so let's start with that. But as guys, we can begin to realize that we're not the only ones out there who did live up the dad's expectation, who may have gone through a divorcer too, who have a child that might be of a challenge, who have done things in the past that they wish he had done. And once we begin to realize that we're not alone in that, that really opens up the floodgates of possibilities. And that's really what a lot of this book is about. It. You could see the floodgates opening for the jet for the John and Tommy, in the two main characters in the book. Well, and you know, it's fascinating to me. You bring up something very interesting, and I think that it applies to many, not all, but to many people who go through the motions of being a good thank you, or being a good Christian, or being a good you know, Buddhist or whatever that happens to be, and yet they don't really

30:45 experience what you refer to. And I would refer to it also as that spirituality being able to tap into that universal light of goodness and kindness and compassion, and which is literally taught in all of those various forms. And yet it takes that type of connection. Whatever it is, it doesn't have to be Christian. I happen to be one too, by the way, But it doesn't have to be that. It only has to be something that you can connect to from the standpoint of really feeling that sense of spirituality to where literally you're able to start moving into an entirely different section of your life and the way you're thinking, the mindset that you have, the consciousness that you have, is now being influenced by something entirely different. I've got a great phrase that I love saying, and I share it with you. Those who devote themselves to themselves eventually lose themselves. And I think what we're talking about, this story exemplifies it. But I think what you're trying to I think what you're accomplishing with what you're doing just the same thing, and that is we're turning ourselves from looking always within to kind of satisfy us who we are and really begin to start looking outward. And if we can begin to look outward, then that's where we begin to feel much better about ourselves and can

32:19 heal and thus believe that can get to peace. And I think as we look outward in that arena, we begin to realize who we really are and have an entirely different viewpoint of the goodness that each of us have. You know, there's so many people that feel like they're no good and you know that comes from the abuse that comes from the childhood, whatever it happens to be. And yet, you know, wouldn't it be wonderful if we all could really just sit back and realize, you know, and in spite of my faults and we all have them, ultimately I'm good. And when we have that understanding, that's going to totally change our behavior. I think the I think the journey of discovering that we are good, that there are that we do not have to live like the way we've lived and how we felt about ourselves in the past, is an amazing journey, and I think can it comes in steps. I'm going to share something that I've I kind of put my lot myself in in a room and really thought about this when I started receiving the question what do you want readers to take away from reading the book? And I came up with something called the five hours of a Piece.

33:37 And so the first and it's right a lot of what you were just saying. The first is you have to take the risks to do it. You have to wake up one day ago, I have to risk feeling uncomfortable to figure out why I have turned out the way that I've turned out. The second is reveal, whether it's to a priest or a spouse, or a small men's or women's small group, or a complete stranger walking down the street. Being able to pull out what you're caring, those punishments you're caring, and how they how they trans transgressed into what you've become. Uh, is extremely important to begin sharing. The third R is receive, So if you're an environment where you you're around others, be open to receive their thoughts because that's when you're going to begin to understand that you're not alone in what you're doing and what you've been through. I mean, uh uh. The fourth is respond In those same same kind of small group environments or people that that that you're working with, exercising the empathy muscle, meaning being there to potentially help others is an amazing step in my opinion, that's where you turn turn it from it's about me to about others. And when when that and happens, then the fifth hour is reconciled, which is forgive your wrongdoers, including the wrongdoer of who you are. Uh And and if you can forgive

35:13 those wrongdoers and forgive yourself and what you've done, you've hit that goal. You've hit that that finish line of piece. In my opinion, that's amazing. And when I was on when I was on your website, I found a quote in the video that is that runs and I stopped it and I copied it and I pasted it because I thought it was such. Now, I don't know if this is yours or whether you got this quote from someone else, but if it's okay, I'd like to read it. Peace and peace and redemption can only occur by burying the past, finding compassion for wrongdoers, and forgiving ourselves. That is so powerful for that one. But yes, no, it is so true. And if I had to sum up the entire book, the entire journey with my uncle John, the entire cathartic ten years it took to go through this experience and then ultimately put it into words, written words, it would be that line. It would definitely be that line. And I am a much better person, I'm a much better husband. I've learned to love much better than the superficial love of just saying hey, I love you. And so I think it's been a wonderful journey for both John and myself. It ended somewhat tragically, but it's an amazing ending no matter what, and it's just it was a great journey. So

36:45 you know, one thing I find and we all experienced this is we're out there really doing the best we can to improve the lives about theirs as well as ourselves. It's rare that we get the feedback this is Hey, that meant so much. And just every once in a while I'll get someone that will send me a message or call me and say, hey, that last interview you did on your podcast has really touched me in a positive way. So have you had that happen for people who have read your book? And can you share it if there's any stories that you have of people that have responded back to you and said thank you because this has changed my life.

37:27 I will give you two stories. One is a young Lady Who, and it has just been released about three weeks now, so it was actually the very first Amazon review, and she just was just amazed at the power of how it affected her. And so I was just thrilled with that. Have that to be the first review and within a couple of days of release was just so empowering. But there is a story I'd like to share that's really Uh, it's gut wrenching, but yet it's amazing. And Uh, as part of writing the book and my journey with John as I mentioned his father, the stepfather of the other children, Uh, these being my mother.

38:15 She had passed away, so I couldn't investigate whether she what what what may have happened to her. But the youngest of the daughters, my aunt, my aunt, she was molested. Uh. And then there's a middle daughter who was was still alive, lived close to me, and she was part of that. I want to figure out the family, You want to figure out why I ended up pelling it up. And I somehow I had it in me to ask chrs and Uh, Sue, did Woody was the character his he's the antagonist character in the book. Did Woody molest you? And I was just I don't know where it came from. I said, I know what had happened to Carol. I know it's happened to others. Did happened to you? And she goes no. I was thankful. I says that that's great. So I'm really happy about that. She didn't and so didn't say another word. So and I didn't want to get in the middle of it. I didn't want to go too deep. I just wanted to way to go. And she didn't really like the guy obviously, so want to see her the next time. She says, Tom, I want to say something I lied to I said what she said there was there was an incident and I she was stoic, but I went to tears and she says, don't cry. It's been a lot. It was a long time ago.

39:37 And so we got over it. And then the next time, I said, the next time, I said, I got to us, and she said, you know, I never told my husband of forty years that he passed away a couple of years prayer, he said. She said, I never told my husband. He says, and I need to tell you that by telling you, I've had the most amaze. Easy weight lifted off my shoulders, and I never have felt this way in my life, and so she was so thankful that I took the bold, transparent step to add to point blank asker if that happened to her, and she was able to kind of transition to turning that into something to where she was reaching towards a really peaceful point in her life. And I'm just I was just I was blown away by that that I didn't expect it. I expect the original answer, to expect the follow up answer. I certainly didn't expect that she would come back and say that she she had been changed and really felt such a relief from having exposed that well. And I think it makes such a difference, number one, to admit it to ourselves, but then to be able to somehow admit that whether it's in her writing or you know, a family member or a friend, and it just takes that pressure off. So this has been great, Tom, and and I'm looking forward to getting your book.

41:08 Is it also an audible or is it just strictly right now that we're considering going to the audible route, But right now it's it's available on Amazon both kindle and paperback. And then if anyone once a once a version that's that signed the website. We can order through the website both a hard hard cover and a paperback. But it's just so we're just now figuring out what to do potentially with Audible, but we want to at least get a few weeks to a couple of months of activity go before we consider going up fantastic. So as we're closing, what what I'd love for you to do is take less than a minute and share with the audience what would be the message that you want to share with them as we close this interview. Well, I think the only thing that I could really say is about as bold a statement as I can say, is take the chance. If you're carrying a burden, whatever it is, call it a punishment, I call it punishments.

42:14 But whatever burden that you're carrying, don't do it in silence, because especially guys, again, men are much more difficult to put themselves in position of opening up because they're afraid to be vulnerable to others. But a reality, vulnerability to me is strength beyond anyone's capacity, in my opinion, And so reach out and find someone or a group of people that can really help you address that, because that's going to be your path to piece my pinion. Wonderful Tom, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. The name of the book, from Punishment to Peace, Thank you very much. Thank you, and folks, thanks for listening.

42:59 Hope you've enjoyed it, and you know, if this resonates with you, get ahold of the book and really take the time to identify with characters that Tom uses, which is obviously himself and his uncle, and see how that can guide you and maybe encourage you to really start to seek that piece in your own life. Is doctor Doug Saining. Have a wonderful week, and thank you so much