From Bullies to Buddies

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This program is designed to provide general
information with regards to the subject matters covered.

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This information is given with the understanding
that neither the hosts, guests,

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sponsors, or station are engaged in
rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,

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legal counseling, professional service, or
any advice. You should seek the

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services of competent professionals before applying or
trying any suggested ideas. At the end

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of the day, it's not about
what you have or even what you've accomplished.

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It's about what you've done with those
accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted

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up, who you've made better.
It's about what you've given back. Denzel

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Washington, welcome to Inspire Vision.
Our sole purpose is to elevate the lives

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of others and to inspire you to
do the same. Busye, welcome to

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the show. How are you very
good? Thank you so much for having

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me. Hi, I appreciate it, you know, And it said frist

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You know, I was interviewing someone
and they suggested I needed to get a

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hold of you and talking about this. So that's great. So could you

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share with the audience a little bit
about your background and what you have done

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and how you have come to really
focus on solutions to bullying. Okay,

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A very good question. I earned
a master degree in clinical psychology in nineteen

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seventy eight. I had decided that
I wanted to be a therapist, you

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know, helping people solve their problems. I moved to Israel then right afterwards.

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It was a dream of mine and
I needed a job. And I

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had a friend and Israel a psychologist, and she suggested that I look into

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work in schools. So I looked
into it and it seemed interesting, and

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they need a psychologist in schools.
So I took the job and the truth

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it was a terrific place to work
in schools, and very quickly I discuss

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that the most common complaints of kids
is that other kids pick on them,

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insult them, push them around.
And I understood why somebody gets picked on.

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It's no great secret. If you
get upset when people pick on you,

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they keep on picking on you.
If you don't get upset, it's

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no fun and they leave you alone. This has been known for many generations.

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So I found that I could use
role playing very well to teach kids

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why they're being picked and how to
stop being picked on. I also noticed

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that the way teachers generally intervened by
investigating and judging and punishing the perpetrator makes

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everything worse. So I would teach
them how to intervene in a way that

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puts a stop to the situation and
the kids learn how to handle it on

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their own. And I was teaching
this, you know, yes, yeah,

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I was going to interrupt you there
real quick, because you know one

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of the things in and I'm probably
I know that you have a very specific

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approach to this, which I'm really
curious to hear about. But here's the

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question, why do kids boy?
And I'm actually aware of some situations where

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teachers are actually bullying. Bullying is
almost always defined from the perspective of the

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victim. The victim is the one
who decides who the bully is. If

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you don't like the way somebody is
treating you, and the continuously treat you

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badly, then in your eyes,
that person is the bully. It doesn't

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happen only among kids in school.
That happens throughout life. You know,

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people marry their soul making before they
know what their soulmate is criticizing them all

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the time, putting them down,
or they want to get divorced. Your

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work and your boss puts you down
all the time, or somebody that work

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bothers you all the time, and
you don't know why they keep on doing

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it to you. So it's not
only something that goes on between kids and

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the reason why they do it to
you. You know, people think that

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I'm blaming victims. I don't blame
victims. You can only blame somebody who's

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intentionally doing something they know to be
wrong. If you're being picked on,

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you don't know why it's happening to
you. You're trying very hard to make

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the person stop picking on you,
but you don't realize that what you're doing

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actually makes it worse. So whoever
comes to me for help, whether it's

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a kid, whether it's a teacher, whether it's a parent, you know,

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who feels they're being treated badly by
somebody, I teach them why it's

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happening and how to make the person
stop treating you badly. Okay, So

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there's a lot of people that talk
about bullying, and there's actually, you

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know, this war against bullying,
And I know that in one of your

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comments on your bio that you're kind
of a critic of this whole bullying you

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know, anti bullying movement, and
I'm curious why you became a critic to

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such a degree. First of all, do you know how long the war

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against bullying has been waged on a
massive scale. I don't. I don't.

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In a month from now, it
will be a full twenty five years,

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a quarter of a century. The
war against bullying was spurred by the

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Columbine massacre of April twentieth, nineteen
ninety nine. So next month it will

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be twenty five years that the the
world has decided we're going to put a

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stop to bullying, and it's only
getting worse. Bullying is still being called

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an epidemic. The suicide rate and
a victims of bullying the skyrocketing, School

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shootings are skyrocketing. Why is it
getting worse rather than getting better? I

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recognize twenty five years ago, when
the world decided we have to get rid

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of bullying, this field of bullying
psychology, which had never been aware of

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before, stepped up to the plate, flaiming they had the solution to the

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problem. When I thought what their
solution is, I realized it can't possibly

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work. They're taking everything that makes
the problem worse and they're presenting it as

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the right thing to do, so
I know, you know, and if

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they really work. I started right
away writing about the lecturing this is not

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going to work, and twenty five
years later, all of my predictions have

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come true. It fascinates me.
You know, there's a saying that I

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love that which we resist persists,
and it sounds like that's exactly what you're

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saying. Here's this resistance, this
anti bullying, and it's just seen and

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becoming worse. And again, you
know, I always have a number of

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questions about that. I think you
know, my background as a dentist and

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I used to work with people who
had chronic head and neck pain, and

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you know, maybe we always come
into the office and I'd say a doctor,

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I have TMJ, and you know
I'm looking at him then going okay,

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actually you have two TMJs, one
on the right side, one on

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the left side. So now tell
me what I think you should explain what

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TMJ is. Yes, temporal mandibular
joint. It it's the jaw that moves

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up and down the joint that allows
the job to move. And so within

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dentistry and within the medicine now people
say, oh I have TMJ, And

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it's like, what is that?
And what I've learned is you've got to

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get to the root cause. And
so i'd say, what what is what

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is the symptom that you're feeling?
What are you experiencing? Well, I've

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got some neck pain, or I
have headaches coststantly, or my jaw hurts

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all the time, and so on
and so forth, and so then I

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was able to get to the solution. And what I find with this anti

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bullying movement and basically what you're saying, what reminds me of that is that

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here we are talking about we're talking
about something in general, but we're not

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getting to the real cause number one
of what's causing the bullying? And number

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two, how do we stop it? How do we cure it? And

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so before we get started into the
curing that you have so well developed,

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i'd love for you, based on
your research and based on your experience as

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a psychologist and as you I'm sure
work with different people, have you been

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able to identify why does an individual
bully another individual? The most general reason

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is our human nature. It feels
good to be higher up in the social

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hierarchy. It feels good to win. It feels lowsy to lose. It

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feels lousy to be at the bottom. So if you do something that gets

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somebody to act in an inferior way
and they're making you defeat them, they're

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going to keep on doing that to
you. And the person isn't necessarily doing

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it consciously. They're not thinking,
you know what, I want to defeat

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people, so if I can make
them feel bad, then I win,

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So I'm going to keep on doing
it. There is no conscious thought process

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behind it. It's just that what
feels good, what gives us power,

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what gives us strength, we do
more. What makes us suffer, we

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try to do less. So if
you now, if you act like a

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victim with people, you're away giving
them power over you. You are making

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them defeat you. So they're going
to keep ondoing that to you. And

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the problem with the bullying psychology is
it only focuses on the bully as the

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problem. By definition, the bully
is the problem. So we have to

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figure out what's wrong with the bully
and how to change the bully. But

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that doesn't work for many reasons.
A major reason is that nobody thinks they're

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a bully. When you accuse somebody
of being a bully, they usually deny

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it. What are you talking about, I'm not a bully. They're bullying

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me. Everybody who comes for help
is a victim. People who are so

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called bullies don't they're happy, they
don't come for help. So everybody who

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comes for help is a victim.
So if the problem is the bully,

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it means it's not the person who's
coming to us for help. So if

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I'm a mental health professional and somebody
and you come to me for help saying

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that other people are upsetting you,
my job to go to those people and

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say, hey, you guys,
you need therapy. You are making Doug

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feel bad? How's that going to
work? You know, you're coming to

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me for help, so I have
to teach you how to solve the problem.

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Plus, if you feel like the
victim, you want the problem to

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be solved. You are the one
who experiences the problem. So I'm going

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to teach you how to solve your
problem, and I'm going to do it

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by teaching you how not to be
a victim. All right, and so

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let's let's try. And I appreciate
what you're saying, and you're right,

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I mean, even you know as
I've looked at it and looked at bullying.

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In fact, you know, I
have a friend whose son has been

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bullied. Now I happen to be
in Thailand right now, and so her

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son, who's I think eight,
is trying to learn English. And as

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he's trying to learn English, and
he does that outside of school, but

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when he's in school to speak English, his teacher actually throws him under the

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rug and starts that bullying. And
so you look at that, but go

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ahead, yeah, and I ask
what exactly does the teacher do to him?

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Oh yeah, he says, you
know, you're stupid, you don't

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need to talk that way, you
don't need to speak English, blah blah

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blah. And and so you know, there are different reasons why kids get

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bullied, and there's and and even
adults get bullied, and you're right,

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oftentimes it's that victim mode that tends
to even increase it more. But you

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know, I guess I always have
that question, and again it goes against

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a little bit about what you're talking
about here, but I always have that

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question of what is it internally?
Uh? Yes, I agree with you,

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we need to be right. Uh. And you know, as I

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get into the history of you know, Europe and the kings and queens and

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so forth. There's definitely you can
see that historically there has also always been

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bullying. Now it may look a
little bit different, but the reality is

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whether it's you know, different classes, or whether it has to do with

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slavery, which has just been a
horrendous experience for so many people, there's

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always this sense of bullying that goes
on. And I totally agree with you

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that many times we just need to
be right and for some reason for our

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ego, the only way we can
prove that is to bully someone else.

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So it's not the only way,
but it's one way. There are ways.

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But anyway, I want to talk
about this teacher who's so called bullying

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your friend's son. Right, the
teacher says, you shouldn't you don't need

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to be talking like that, you
shouldn't be talking English like that. So

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from the student's point of view,
the teacher is bullying him because he's criticizing

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if you're talking English. But I
guarantee you that if you were to talk

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to the teacher and ask him why
does he say these things to the boys?

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To the boy, he'll probably say
he's not understandable, he shouldn't be

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doing it. I'm trying to teach
him what not to do so that he'll

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do better in school or be accepted
better. The teacher will give you a

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rational reason why he's doing it.
Now, the boy doesn't like it,

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but the teacher in his mind is
trying to help the boy well. And

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then certainly a possibility, no question. And again, as you say,

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it really comes down to perception,
doesn't it, the perception that individuals have.

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So I would also need to know
how the boy is responding and how

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the parents of the boy is responding. You know, they're probably responding in

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some way and the boy. Now, if the boy and the boys' parents

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are responding to the teacher in some
way, they're probably trying to get the

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teacher to stop treating the boy that
way, but unwittingly and probably doing the

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opposite. But of course I can't
know this until I talk to the parties

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involved well. And actually my advice
was tell your son to speak English when

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he's in another environment of other young
children that want to speak English, and

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don't do it in school, because
it's just creating whatever issue that happens to

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be and so they haven't approached the
teacher, and I think that it has

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settled down. In fact, I
know that they've gotten themselves into a situation

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where he's able to take English in
a school that teaches English on the weekends,

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and it's just made all the difference
in the world for him because he's

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been able to remove himself from that
situation. And you're right, so many

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times we do things that initiate that
response and that emotional reaction of bullying that

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I think can happen. So let's
let's get into your approach. How do

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we stop this bullying because it's not
just in schools, as you say,

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it's messy, it's worldwide. Now, it's totally worldwide, and we could

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see the anger and everything that's going
on, and we could label it bullying

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or whatever we want to label it, but the reality is we've got to

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horrendous problem. Yeah. And by
the way, every country that embarks on

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a campaign to demit of bullying from
school discovers that it becomes a bigger problem.

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Interesting they're doing what the field of
bullying psychology is recommending they do,

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but they don't realize that those recommendations
make the problem continue and intensify. And

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I'd like to give two general reasons
why the common approach to bullying is counter

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product great, Okay. One general
reason is kids used to be told sticks

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and stones may break my bones,
but the words will never harm me.

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I grew up with this slogan.
It's been given to kids for generations before

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me, and this is a wonderful
slogan. It's it teaches kids how to

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stop being bullied. It expresses the
fundamental difference between physical aggression and verbal aggression.

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Doug, if you hit me with
sticks and stones, does my attitude

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towards the sticks and stones have any
bearing on how much pain and damage they're

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going to do to me? Oh? Absolutely no. If I like the

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sticks and stones, they won't hurt
me, Well, you're still gonna get

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hit by the sticks and stones.
If we're talking about touristicks and stones,

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there's no question that's going to cause
pain. Yeah, So my attitude towards

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the sticks and stones has no bearing
on how much pain and damage they're going

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to do me. If you hit
me with sticks and stones, you want

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hurting me and injuring me. If
you call me an idiot or any other

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insult, does my attitude towards the
insult have any bearing on how much pain

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and damage it's going to cause me? Oh? Absolutely, And it triggers

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all sorts of emotions that can make
controlled I'm sure. Yeah. But what

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percentage does it depend on me if
the insult is going to hurt me?

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Oh? I would say probably one
hundred percent. Yeah, it's totally up

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to me. If your insult is
going to hurt me, it's not up

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to you. So when kids understand
the slogan, they can decide, oh,

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I don't have to get upset by
insults. You know, it's not

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sticks and stones. And if you
don't get upset by insults, you don't

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become a victim of relentless tasing and
taunting. Ever since Columbine, and even

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before that, kids had been taught
that the sticks and stone slogan is a

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lie. Today kids are being taught
sticks and stones may break my bones,

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but words can scar me forever or
words can kill me. Kids are being

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taught that words are so incredibly painful
they're much worse than having your arm broken.

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Now, Doug, I don't know
about you, but I would much

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rather be called an idiot or the
worst insults in the world. Call me

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a fucking jew, but don't break
my bones. But kids are being taught

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that being insulted is so incredibly horrible. So what happens when kids get insulted?

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Do they think, oh, no
big deal, Oh no, I'm

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being bullied. This can kill me, this can scar me forever. So

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kids who learn the new slogan are
more likely to get upset when they're picked

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on. And if you get upset, that's what makes the pick and go

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on endlessly. So being taught this
new version that words can scar me forever

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or kill me makes the problem worse. But the more important reason that the

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common approach to bullying is making things
worse is because it's all based on the

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idea that kids and their parents have
to inform the school when a child is

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being bullied. And the idea is, if you don't inform the school,

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how can this school solve the problem? Now, telling the school will be

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helpful if the school happens to have
a reliable way to deal with bullying,

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But if it doesn't have a reliable
weight, it's probably going to make the

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problem worse. And this is you
know, and schools are being taught that

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you have to take the side of
the victim against the bully. The problem

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has nothing to do with the victim. We have to let them know it's

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not their fault in any way.
It's only the problem of the course,

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it's only being caused by the bully, and you have to take the side

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of the victim against the bully.
So, Douglas, let's say you and

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I are kids in school and you
insult me. I tell the teacher on

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you, and you get sent to
the principal who has to do and has

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to interrogate you. And the principal
says to you, Doug, why did

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you bully is he? Are you
going to say, Oh, it's because

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I'm a bad kid and I have
fun hurting other people. We're going to

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say, what are you talking about? I didn't bully? Is he bully?

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Is he is lying, he's making
it up? Or he started with

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me and I just got back at
him. Are you likely to say that

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you're guilty or to defend yourself and
blame me? Oh? Absolutely not guilty.

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Yeah. The normal thing for any
human being, including adults, when

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they're accused of wrongdoing is to defend
themselves and blame the other party. Are

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you going to like me better for
getting you sent to the principal's office for

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bullying me? Well, and here's
the question. You get to the principal's

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office. If it continues, now
you send that to the schoologist. So

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here's a question for you. And
I imagine you get a little bit of

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feedback on this. But as you
look, if you've even looked at you

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know the general concept, and you've
mentioned this a little bit in psychology,

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are most psychologists now taught to focus
on the bully and figure out because that's

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where I was kind of coming right
from the beginning. They are they taught

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to focus on the bully and not
on the victim, to the point that

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they're just actually increasing the problem.
Yes, there, They are taught that

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when you work with the victim,
your job is to relieve them of any

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feeling that it's their fault. We
have to like out of them. It's

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not your fault. It's not because
of you. You didn't do anything wrong.

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It's only because of them. They're
bullies. That's what you have to

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do, and you have to focus
on the bully. So if you come

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to me for help because you're being
bullied, my job is to go to

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the bullies and make them change.
Now, anybody who studies psychotherapy knows that

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it's very hard to make somebody else
change, you know, meaning that if

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you come to me for help,
I have to make the other people change.

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They're going to say, what are
you talking about? This isn't my

285
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problem, it's their problem. You
know. You can't go. Yeah,

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and your job in helping people is
not to fight their battles for them against

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other people. But anyway, if
I get you center the principal's office,

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that you're going to like me better
or you're going to be mad at me.

289
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Oh yeah, yeah, they're going
to be even angrier with you.

290
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So it's going to continue and get
worse. Exactly, you're going to tell

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everybody I'm a snitch, which is
a social death sentence. So this is

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the main reason why the building problem
is becoming worse, is because kids are

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being taught that you have to tell
the school authorities on your bullies. But

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anyway, getting back, yes,
mental health professionals and everybody is being taught

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00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:03.680
that the victim has nothing to do
with the problem. The bully is the

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problem, all right, So what's
the solution. So let's say you come

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to me for help. And most
bullying is verbal insults, you know,

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put downs, and even most physical
fights begin with insults. So let's say

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you come to me for help.
So I want to know who picks on

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00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:25.839
you? How often do they do
it? How many times a day?

301
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:29.119
How long has it been going?
Gone? So, once I know the

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scope of the problem, I ask
you, do you want the kids to

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stop picking on you? What will
you say? Oh? Absolutely? Okay,

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So I'm going to teach you why
they're picking on you and how to

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get them to stop. I have
a long procedure which teaches a whole lot

306
00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:49.960
of basic psychology, but I'm not
going to do it now because it takes

307
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:55.640
at least a half an hour.
But I'm going to do a very short

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version that anybody can do. It
only takes a couple of a couple of

309
00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:06.319
minutes. So, uh, why
insult? Why insult? The kids generally

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call you? You're the kid I'm
working with. Oh, they say I'm

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stupid or I'm weird. You want
them to stop saying it? Yes,

312
00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:23.000
right, okay, I'm going to
play a game with you. Your job

313
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is to call me stupid or weird, and don't let me stop you.

314
00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:32.440
If I can stop you, I
win the game and you lose, and

315
00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:34.839
don't worry about hurting my feelings.
It's it's make believe. I want you

316
00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:38.319
to do a good job. Go
ahead, Doug. Okay, So,

317
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:41.559
yeah, you are stupid, You're
weird. I mean that's just the way

318
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.599
it is. What do you talk
me? I'm not stupid or weird.

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00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:52.000
Yes you are. No, I'm
not. I'm smart. Oh so no,

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00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:55.039
no way, what do you mean? No way, I'm smart,

321
00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:59.759
Salvius, You're stupid. You stop
smart because you want to prove you're smart.

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00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:03.079
But that's not true. I am
smart. Why do you think I'm

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00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:06.599
not smart? Well, I watch
you in school. You don't answer questions.

324
00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:10.519
Right, you're just stupid. Yes, yes, don't call me stupid.

325
00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:15.680
I'm not stupid. Believe what you
want. But you are. No,

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00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.720
I'm not. Now you say one
more time, you're going to be

327
00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:23.839
sorry. You're stupid. Listen,
I know karate. You shut your mouth

328
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:29.160
that you're going to be sorry.
Yeah, we'll try it. I will

329
00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:32.759
in something. One more time.
You're going to see what happens to you.

330
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:37.880
Okay, try it. That's the
night sign that you're stupid. I

331
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.839
am not stupid. Stopping Ready,
Okay, I give up. Dougie did

332
00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.559
a very nice job. I tried
very hard to get you to stop calling

333
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:49.039
me stupid. Did I succeed?
No? Was it hard to call me

334
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:53.160
stupid? Well, for me,
it was hard to call you stupid,

335
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:56.119
But in playing the game, No, it was not hard to call you

336
00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.480
stupid because you kept acting in a
way that just kept generating even more of

337
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:04.960
those emotions. Yeah, and that's
not a kid wouldn't give that explanation,

338
00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:07.880
but a kid would say, yeah, you know, you didn't stop me.

339
00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:12.279
It was easy to call call you
stupid. Uh so, and I'll

340
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:17.480
ask you, wasn't this kind of
fun? Well? Yeah, I was

341
00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:22.599
feeling a little bad. You didn't
look at the video. You didn't look

342
00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:25.839
like you were feeling better at all. Okay, it looked like you were

343
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:30.000
having a wonderful time. Well I
know that's because we were playing the game.

344
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:33.440
Yeah, but in the game you
were having a great time. You

345
00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:37.440
have no great time. So if
you want to call me stupid, can

346
00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:44.359
I force you to stop? No, because it's only words. So yeah,

347
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.359
it gets worse. Yeah, we're
gonna play the game again, same

348
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:52.519
game, call me stupid and don't
let me stop you. Okay, So

349
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:56.839
you know it is you're just playing
stupid and you're really weird. So you

350
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:03.000
think I'm stupid and weird? Yeah, because I happen to think that you

351
00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:07.519
were, you know, smart and
really normal. Well, thank you,

352
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:15.079
you're welcome. Yeah, you got
me right there. And now now you're

353
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:18.559
thanking me. Do you want to
do you want to keep on insulting me

354
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:26.079
this way? No? You see, they're not calling you stupid or weird

355
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:30.279
because you're stupid or weird. They
do it because when you get upset,

356
00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:34.440
they have fun. You were having
fun when I was getting upset. Don't

357
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:40.160
they have fun when you get upset. That's why they do it to you.

358
00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:44.440
So stop getting upset. Compliment them
back. If they call you stupid,

359
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:47.400
say oh but I think you're smart. If they call you weird,

360
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:51.200
you say, oh but you're so
normal or you're so popular. And you'll

361
00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:55.599
see that they stop insulting you,
and they they're even liking you because you're

362
00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:59.440
complimenting them. So try it for
a couple of days and let me know

363
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:04.880
how how it works. Okay,
And so that's where you're teaching these kids.

364
00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:10.240
Yeah, now I have a much
longer version. But this is a

365
00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:14.200
version that a teacher can do on
the spot. The parent can teach their

366
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:17.200
kids how to do it. It
takes a few minutes and then the kid

367
00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:21.920
goes Oh. The real reason they
do is because I get upset and they

368
00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:26.920
discover the solution is so easy.
But I also think that kids give the

369
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.200
kids warnings. I tell them it's
not going to get better right away.

370
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:33.640
It's got to get worse in the
beginning. Because the kids have been picking

371
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:37.799
on you every day for a long
time. They like to see getting upset.

372
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:41.279
So when you're not getting upset,
they're going to think something went wrong.

373
00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:42.559
But you have to get upset.
They want you to get upset,

374
00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:47.160
so they're going to try harder in
the beginning to upset you. So when

375
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:51.000
you see them trying harder, don't
think it's not working. It's working.

376
00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:55.279
It's just that the problem gets worse
before it gets better. And the second

377
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:56.839
warning I give the kid is that
you have to do it all of the

378
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:00.640
time. If you do it most
of the time, it's not going to

379
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:03.519
work. They're just going to keep
undersulting you until you got upset. It's

380
00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:07.240
only when they see that can never
upset you, they stop trying to upset

381
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:12.200
you, all right. So you've
got these young kids in grade school,

382
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:19.880
let's say that are experiencing that bullying
and you're teaching them this. How easy

383
00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:25.720
is it for them to actually adapt
this? And how do you help them?

384
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:29.359
I mean, you know, I
know that you know, as we

385
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:33.240
talk about changing habits, and it
is a habit. Sometimes it'll take thirty

386
00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:38.319
sixty ninety days to change a habit, and to have that brain change is

387
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:44.720
neuro pathways to where you've actually literally
changed the habit. It's a habit for

388
00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:48.920
those kids to respond the way that
they respond, How long does it actually

389
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:52.839
take them? And how do you
help them to get to the point where

390
00:30:52.839 --> 00:30:57.519
they cement it in eternally so that
they're able then to stop that bullying.

391
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:06.720
Most kids get this after the first
session. It's a habit, but it's

392
00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:11.119
not the kind of habit like your
body demands it. You know, you're

393
00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:15.279
a smoker, so your body demands
smoking. Or maybe you're a head scratcher

394
00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:18.559
and you scratch your head without even
realizing it, and that can be a

395
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.920
really tough habit to break because you're
just your body demands it, you do

396
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:27.559
it. Without even thinking. But
this is not something that's happening without thinking.

397
00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:32.519
You are being picked on. It's
an interaction. You don't like it.

398
00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:36.119
You want to make the kids stop, so you get mad at them.

399
00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:37.880
You tell them to stop, you
threaten them, you tell them,

400
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:42.440
teacher run them. It's not a
habit in the sense of smoking or head

401
00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:48.839
scratching. It's something that you've been
doing over and over again because you think

402
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:52.839
this is the solution. But then
I teach them, know this isn't a

403
00:31:52.839 --> 00:31:56.400
solution. You are making it worse. So once you realize, oh,

404
00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:59.319
I don't have to do anything and
the problem is going to get better,

405
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:04.759
people are happy to do it now. I'm not saying that every kid gets

406
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.839
it after one session. I wish
every kid did, but many kids do,

407
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:13.000
maybe even most kids. So some
kids need more repetition on meeting with

408
00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:16.799
them over the course of a few
weeks until they get it right. And

409
00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:22.279
I'll also teach them how to deal
with other kinds of aggression, because insults

410
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:25.640
isn't the only kind. You can
be pushed around, you could be excluded.

411
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:30.720
There are many ways that people can
pick on you. So I need

412
00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:36.200
to teach you how to deal with
each one of those kinds of harassments.

413
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:42.359
Okay, so let's talk about adults
now. As we look around what's going

414
00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:49.319
on in the world right now,
there's a tremendous amount of anger and mistreatment

415
00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:52.720
and things that are going on.
And as you brought up right at the

416
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:59.559
very beginning, you are Jewish.
So let's talk about anti Semitism, because

417
00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:05.000
I know you probably very aware of
that. Is that bullying or are we

418
00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:09.839
talking about an entirely different thing when
we see people who are prejudice towards color

419
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:15.000
or prejudice towards religion, Because we're
seeing that across the board. What is

420
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:25.839
the difference between bullying and those type
of behaviors. First of all, if

421
00:33:25.880 --> 00:33:30.799
you're dealing with an individual case,
let's say you're being picked on by the

422
00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:36.319
people you work with. They're putting
you down for your religion, I will

423
00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:39.400
I can teach you how to deal
with them directly so that they'll stop putting

424
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:45.440
you down. Now, there's a
larger thing of anti Semitism and hatred is

425
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:51.000
being spread about Jews and about Israel. You as an individual can't make that

426
00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:53.799
stop. You know, this has
to be done tackled on a much bigger

427
00:33:53.920 --> 00:34:02.559
level, you know, And it's
very important to make a distinction between bullying

428
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:07.400
and criminal behavior. Yeah, people
picking on each picking on you, you

429
00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:12.159
can call that bullying. And what
we mean by bullying is you're being picked

430
00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:15.840
on repeatedly. The same people do
the same thing over to you, over

431
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:21.159
and over again. So that's really
what makes somebody a victim of bullying.

432
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:28.840
Now, let's say there's a head
of a group that's calling death to Jews.

433
00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:35.679
This is not bullying. This is
criminal behavior. Incitement to violence is

434
00:34:35.719 --> 00:34:40.239
a crime. You're not allowed to
incite violence because inciting violence makes you guilty

435
00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:46.960
of violence. So if a leader
of a group like Hamas is calling to

436
00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:52.400
death to Jews and it's teaching children
from birth to hate Jews and how to

437
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:55.599
kill them, this is not bullying. This is criminal behavior. It's preparing

438
00:34:55.960 --> 00:35:01.760
your population to commit genocide against another
people. If the Nazis are teaching Europeans

439
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:05.960
to hate Jews and the Jews are
the source of all of the problems,

440
00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:09.079
this is not bullying. It's not
you're picking on somebody for the fun of

441
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:14.960
upsetting them. You're out to destroy
them. That is the most serious crime.

442
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:19.719
When you try to get a whole
nation of people killed. This is

443
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:23.760
the worst crime possible. It's not
they're doing it to upset you. No,

444
00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:27.559
they're doing it because they want to
kill you. Yeah, in the

445
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:31.960
workplace where you're experiencing that, Let's
say, then, would you frame that

446
00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:37.239
as bullying if it's in the workplace
where maybe there's two or three people that

447
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:44.400
are making those slight comments here and
there. What really counts is whether you

448
00:35:44.599 --> 00:35:47.519
see it as bullying. If you
are the client coming to me for help

449
00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:52.119
and you tell me I'm being bullied, they're calling me a dirty Jew,

450
00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:57.280
I'll teach you what to do about
it. And if I can show you

451
00:35:57.320 --> 00:36:00.159
how to make them stop, you
know what, I think that would be

452
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:05.320
a good discussion. We have a
little bit of time because whether whether again,

453
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:12.280
whether it's Hispanic or Black, or
Jew or Christian or Islam or whatever

454
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:16.000
it happens to be, we see
that going on in different levels. And

455
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:20.360
again I totally agree with you that
when you get to the criminal level,

456
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:23.760
that's an entirely different thing. But
even within smaller groups, within business,

457
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:28.079
within social gatherings and so forth,
how do you stop it? Yeah,

458
00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:32.880
I'd love to hear it. So
let's say you hate Jews for whatever reason,

459
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:37.400
you grew up hating Jews, or
you were convinced that Jews are terrible

460
00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:39.840
and they're the source of the world's
problems. And you work with me,

461
00:36:40.360 --> 00:36:45.079
and you are going to say,
is the you dirty Jew? You shouldn't

462
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:49.679
be working with us, or something
like that, make believe you hate Jews

463
00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:52.760
and put me down for being a
Jew, or you want to play here

464
00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:57.719
again. Okay, so yeah,
but the first time, I'm going to

465
00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:01.639
do the typical thing. I think
this says the right way, but put

466
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:05.559
me down. Well, you're just
hearing me say to my friend, you

467
00:37:05.559 --> 00:37:07.639
know, is he's Jewish? I
mean, you know, they have such

468
00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:12.639
a mentality. They think they're so
good and so smart, and they're the

469
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:19.920
ones that make the most money among
people. Oh man, you're nothing but

470
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.920
an anti Semite. You're promoting stereotypes. Well, and you are the stereotype.

471
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:29.320
What am i? I'm the stereotype. I'm I'm a Jew and I'm

472
00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:34.559
proud of it. There's nothing wrong
with being a Jew. Yeah, Well,

473
00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:37.480
talk about the people over in different
countries that are being attacked by the

474
00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:45.000
Jews right now. They're being attacked
because they're trying to kill us. Yeah,

475
00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:51.000
but they're killing people who are just
innocent children, innocent mothers. But

476
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:57.320
that's the fault of because Coms uses
them as human shields. Well, you

477
00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:01.440
know that's what that's your excuse for
going in there them. It's true that.

478
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:05.760
Look but they they've been trying to
kill us. They shoot thousands of

479
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:10.159
rocks at us and discriminately, they're
trying to destroy us. Yeah, right,

480
00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:14.840
what you're right, you don't,
don't you know what's going on.

481
00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:17.599
Look at their charter. Their charter
is you have to kill every Jew wherever

482
00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:22.840
they are. By the way,
I'm stopping here because I'm not this stuff

483
00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:29.000
because I do not believe anything.
I just said. Okay, yeah,

484
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:31.400
but it doesn't matter. But in
the role play, was I making you

485
00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:35.880
stop saying these these things or content? No? No, no, you

486
00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:39.400
wouldn't have been. Yeah, you're
going to continue doing these things. Who's

487
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:44.960
winning in this role who's winning in
this role play? Right? Yeah?

488
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:50.559
It's yeah, you're you're you're winning
because you're attacking me so considentally, I'm

489
00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:53.920
getting all upset. You're you're destroying
me, So you are winning here?

490
00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:59.519
Could you respect me for for the
way I'm responding to you? No?

491
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:02.719
Absolute, not because I look like
a big idea. I'm losing self control.

492
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:06.880
Would you want to be my?
Am? I changing the way you

493
00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:10.039
think about Jews by the way,
I'm answering you. No, am I

494
00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:15.039
treating am I treating you like a
friend or an enemy? An enemy.

495
00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:19.360
Now we're going to do it again. This time, I'm going to treat

496
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:22.960
you like a friend. Going okay, so you're hearing me say again,

497
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:25.360
you know what he's to do.
And just look at what they're doing and

498
00:39:25.400 --> 00:39:29.480
what's going on here. I mean, it's just amazing. How can we

499
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:34.639
even stand them around? Yeah,
you know, there's so much hatred against

500
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:39.079
Jews. It's it's terrible. Yeah, and their cause untunch you think.

501
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:45.480
Yeah, And it's very easy to
see the Jews as being at the fall.

502
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:49.199
So you know, I don't blame
you for seeing things that way.

503
00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:53.280
Really, yeah, I mean it
seems that way. It seems like we're

504
00:39:53.280 --> 00:40:00.159
committing genocide, that we're killing innocent
people and even babies for nothing. That's

505
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:02.880
the way it seems. Yeah,
it really does. Yeah, it does.

506
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:09.760
The media is promoting it. Pro
Palestine organizations are promoting it. You

507
00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:14.599
know, it seems that's the way
it is. Yeah, and the people

508
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:19.360
that people. You know, people
have always loved to hate youse. It's

509
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:23.239
been going on for thousands of years. That's true, that's true. Yeah,

510
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:30.760
they all people always find a way
to blame us for for their problems.

511
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:35.159
True, and it often seems that
way. You know that they present

512
00:40:35.719 --> 00:40:39.159
in their mind, they see it
a certain way, and it seems correct

513
00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:43.679
like you take advantage of them.
You know, we only it seems like

514
00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:47.119
we only care about money and we
want to take advantage of people. It

515
00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:51.840
seems that way. Yeah, it
does, there's no question about it.

516
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:57.000
Yeah. Okay, So you've settled
me down? Yeah, uh, this

517
00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:02.079
way? Can you respect me more? Yes? Absolutely? This way?

518
00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:07.719
Could you see yourself eventually becoming my
friend even though I'm a Jew? Oh?

519
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:12.199
Absolutely, yeah, because I'm treating
you like a friend. I'm not

520
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:15.119
saying you're wrong, I'm not angry
at you. I'm not saying your thinking

521
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:20.519
is distorted. I'm validating the way
you see things. But I'm nice to

522
00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:23.199
you. That seems that way.
It's been going on for thousands of years.

523
00:41:23.719 --> 00:41:29.159
Now, you might want to know
more from me instead of that you

524
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:35.519
to insult me. So, so
fact is anti Semitism exists? You can't

525
00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:38.519
just make it disappear from the world. But on a one to one basis,

526
00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:43.400
if you have the right approach,
you can change the person around by

527
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:47.760
not getting upset with them and treating
them like a friend who who is intelligent.

528
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:53.800
So let me ask you a question. You obviously got this handled yourself.

529
00:41:54.559 --> 00:42:01.519
How do you help people too not
be reactive to learn to be able

530
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:07.320
to accept any comment? I know, as I've studied Buddhism, as I've

531
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:13.880
studied other different types of religions and
behavior, human behavior, and so forth,

532
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:16.400
one of the things that I have
found is that one of the ways

533
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:21.679
in which to eliminate this anger,
this fighting, all of this type of

534
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:28.760
thing is to be able to accept
any comment without taking it personally. How

535
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:35.960
do you help people who are so
highly reactive learn to take those comments and

536
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:40.199
not take them personally and therefore have
any emotional and perhaps a verbal or physical

537
00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:45.360
reaction. I do it exactly the
same way that I did it with you.

538
00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:50.880
I wrote play with you. I
can try to explain something to you

539
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:53.840
ten times. I can explain to
you, don't be reacted, don't get

540
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:59.280
upset with them. If I say
that, you may think that I'm asking

541
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:01.719
you to lose, let them get
away with it. Turn the other cheek,

542
00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:07.039
be a doormat. But I act
it out with you. And then

543
00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:09.360
you see that when I do it
the typical way, the natural way,

544
00:43:09.400 --> 00:43:14.639
by getting upset, by saying you're
wrong, by defending myself, it only

545
00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:17.400
goes on and escalates and you come
out being the winner. Then I do

546
00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:21.840
it another way and I treat you
like a friend. I don't get upset,

547
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:24.440
and you see, wow, this
is a much different experience and it's

548
00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:29.239
not a win lose situation. The
way I did it. The second way

549
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:34.119
is a win win situation. It's
better for both of us, so that,

550
00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:38.280
but the role playing it makes it
much more easy to accept because the

551
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:43.320
person wants to win. If you're
a Jew and you're being picked on,

552
00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:45.400
you feel like a loser. With
the people at work, you want to

553
00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:49.119
feel like a winner. So I'm
going to teach you how to win.

554
00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:52.400
But it's a win win situation.
Well, and then what comes through to

555
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:59.760
me is this sense of personal responsibility
of realizing, as you say, you

556
00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:02.239
know, but I am responsible for
my life, I am responsible for my

557
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:07.760
reaction. I am responsible, and
if I'm willing to accept responsibility, and

558
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:13.960
then work with you or someone you
know to go through that to the point

559
00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:20.280
where I can learn to accept these
comments and not be reactive to them.

560
00:44:20.679 --> 00:44:22.280
I think it makes a huge difference. So let me let me ask you

561
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:29.039
a question as we're getting ready to
close. If you had a message for

562
00:44:29.159 --> 00:44:32.880
the audience today in less than a
minute, because we're going to put this

563
00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:37.159
on a short reil, what would
be the message that you would want to

564
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:45.400
share with the audience based on your
lifetime of experience, the best way to

565
00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:50.320
get people to like and respect you
more is to treat them with respect.

566
00:44:51.559 --> 00:44:55.159
Everybody wants respect. So if somebody
is putting you down and you get upset,

567
00:44:55.239 --> 00:45:00.719
they can't respect you. So you
saw them respect and then they stop

568
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:05.199
putting you down and they like you
and respect you because you are respecting them.

569
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:10.440
All right, Izzy, it's been
a great, great opportunity to have

570
00:45:10.519 --> 00:45:16.039
this chat with you. Thank you
so much. Doug was great being here.

571
00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:21.320
You're a wonderful interviewer. Well,
thank you, and I really appreciate

572
00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:24.480
it. And folks, I hope
you'll listen to this a few times because

573
00:45:24.599 --> 00:45:29.360
I think as he has such an
important message to realize that you know what

574
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:35.039
we are responsible for our reactions.
We're responsible for how we take things in

575
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:39.239
and if we accept that responsibility and
work on it, we literally can change

576
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:45.239
the way that mankind is behaving towards
each other. So is he. Thanks

577
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:50.280
again, appreciate you being on the
show and my pleasure dog. Thank you,

578
00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:52.599
and folks, thanks for listening.
I hope you'll join us again soon.

579
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:00.800
I am Dre