From Bullies to Buddies

0:01 This program is designed to provide general information with regards to the subject matters covered. This information is given with the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas. At the end of the day, it's not about what you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up, who you've made better. It's about what you've given back. Denzel Washington, welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you to do the same. Busye, welcome to the show. How are you very good? Thank you so much for having me. Hi, I appreciate it, you know, And it said frist You know, I was interviewing someone and they suggested I needed to get a hold of you and talking about this. So that's great. So could you share with the audience a little bit about your background and what you have done and how you have come to really focus on solutions to bullying. Okay, A very good question. I earned a master degree in clinical psychology in nineteen seventy eight. I had decided that I wanted to be a therapist, you

1:32 know, helping people solve their problems. I moved to Israel then right afterwards. It was a dream of mine and I needed a job. And I had a friend and Israel a psychologist, and she suggested that I look into work in schools. So I looked into it and it seemed interesting, and they need a psychologist in schools. So I took the job and the truth it was a terrific place to work in schools, and very quickly I discuss that the most common complaints of kids is that other kids pick on them, insult them, push them around. And I understood why somebody gets picked on. It's no great secret. If you get upset when people pick on you, they keep on picking on you. If you don't get upset, it's no fun and they leave you alone. This has been known for many generations.

2:23 So I found that I could use role playing very well to teach kids why they're being picked and how to stop being picked on. I also noticed that the way teachers generally intervened by investigating and judging and punishing the perpetrator makes everything worse. So I would teach them how to intervene in a way that puts a stop to the situation and the kids learn how to handle it on their own. And I was teaching this, you know, yes, yeah, I was going to interrupt you there real quick, because you know one of the things in and I'm probably I know that you have a very specific approach to this, which I'm really curious to hear about. But here's the question, why do kids boy? And I'm actually aware of some situations where teachers are actually bullying. Bullying is almost always defined from the perspective of the victim. The victim is the one who decides who the bully is. If you don't like the way somebody is treating you, and the continuously treat you badly, then in your eyes, that person is the bully. It doesn't happen only among kids in school. That happens throughout life. You know, people marry their soul making before they know what their soulmate is criticizing them all the time, putting them down, or they want to get divorced. Your

3:53 work and your boss puts you down all the time, or somebody that work bothers you all the time, and you don't know why they keep on doing it to you. So it's not only something that goes on between kids and the reason why they do it to you. You know, people think that I'm blaming victims. I don't blame victims. You can only blame somebody who's intentionally doing something they know to be wrong. If you're being picked on, you don't know why it's happening to you. You're trying very hard to make the person stop picking on you, but you don't realize that what you're doing actually makes it worse. So whoever comes to me for help, whether it's a kid, whether it's a teacher, whether it's a parent, you know, who feels they're being treated badly by somebody, I teach them why it's happening and how to make the person stop treating you badly. Okay, So there's a lot of people that talk about bullying, and there's actually, you know, this war against bullying, And I know that in one of your comments on your bio that you're kind of a critic of this whole bullying you know, anti bullying movement, and I'm curious why you became a critic to such a degree. First of all, do you know how long the war against bullying has been waged on a massive scale. I don't. I don't.

5:26 In a month from now, it will be a full twenty five years, a quarter of a century. The war against bullying was spurred by the Columbine massacre of April twentieth, nineteen ninety nine. So next month it will be twenty five years that the the world has decided we're going to put a stop to bullying, and it's only getting worse. Bullying is still being called an epidemic. The suicide rate and a victims of bullying the skyrocketing, School shootings are skyrocketing. Why is it getting worse rather than getting better? I recognize twenty five years ago, when the world decided we have to get rid of bullying, this field of bullying psychology, which had never been aware of before, stepped up to the plate, flaiming they had the solution to the problem. When I thought what their solution is, I realized it can't possibly work. They're taking everything that makes the problem worse and they're presenting it as the right thing to do, so I know, you know, and if they really work. I started right away writing about the lecturing this is not going to work, and twenty five years later, all of my predictions have come true. It fascinates me. You know, there's a saying that I love that which we resist persists, and it sounds like that's exactly what you're saying. Here's this resistance, this anti bullying, and it's just seen and

7:00 becoming worse. And again, you know, I always have a number of questions about that. I think you know, my background as a dentist and I used to work with people who had chronic head and neck pain, and you know, maybe we always come into the office and I'd say a doctor, I have TMJ, and you know I'm looking at him then going okay, actually you have two TMJs, one on the right side, one on the left side. So now tell me what I think you should explain what TMJ is. Yes, temporal mandibular joint. It it's the jaw that moves up and down the joint that allows the job to move. And so within dentistry and within the medicine now people say, oh I have TMJ, And it's like, what is that? And what I've learned is you've got to get to the root cause. And so i'd say, what what is what is the symptom that you're feeling? What are you experiencing? Well, I've got some neck pain, or I have headaches coststantly, or my jaw hurts all the time, and so on and so forth, and so then I was able to get to the solution. And what I find with this anti bullying movement and basically what you're saying, what reminds me of that is that here we are talking about we're talking about something in general, but we're not getting to the real cause number one of what's causing the bullying? And number two, how do we stop it? How do we cure it? And

8:35 so before we get started into the curing that you have so well developed, i'd love for you, based on your research and based on your experience as a psychologist and as you I'm sure work with different people, have you been able to identify why does an individual bully another individual? The most general reason is our human nature. It feels good to be higher up in the social hierarchy. It feels good to win. It feels lowsy to lose. It feels lousy to be at the bottom. So if you do something that gets somebody to act in an inferior way and they're making you defeat them, they're going to keep on doing that to you. And the person isn't necessarily doing it consciously. They're not thinking, you know what, I want to defeat people, so if I can make them feel bad, then I win, So I'm going to keep on doing it. There is no conscious thought process behind it. It's just that what feels good, what gives us power, what gives us strength, we do more. What makes us suffer, we try to do less. So if you now, if you act like a victim with people, you're away giving them power over you. You are making them defeat you. So they're going to keep ondoing that to you. And

10:07 the problem with the bullying psychology is it only focuses on the bully as the problem. By definition, the bully is the problem. So we have to figure out what's wrong with the bully and how to change the bully. But that doesn't work for many reasons. A major reason is that nobody thinks they're a bully. When you accuse somebody of being a bully, they usually deny it. What are you talking about, I'm not a bully. They're bullying me. Everybody who comes for help is a victim. People who are so called bullies don't they're happy, they don't come for help. So everybody who comes for help is a victim. So if the problem is the bully, it means it's not the person who's coming to us for help. So if I'm a mental health professional and somebody and you come to me for help saying that other people are upsetting you, my job to go to those people and say, hey, you guys, you need therapy. You are making Doug feel bad? How's that going to work? You know, you're coming to me for help, so I have to teach you how to solve the problem.

11:15 Plus, if you feel like the victim, you want the problem to be solved. You are the one who experiences the problem. So I'm going to teach you how to solve your problem, and I'm going to do it by teaching you how not to be a victim. All right, and so let's let's try. And I appreciate what you're saying, and you're right, I mean, even you know as I've looked at it and looked at bullying. In fact, you know, I have a friend whose son has been bullied. Now I happen to be in Thailand right now, and so her son, who's I think eight, is trying to learn English. And as he's trying to learn English, and he does that outside of school, but when he's in school to speak English, his teacher actually throws him under the rug and starts that bullying. And so you look at that, but go ahead, yeah, and I ask what exactly does the teacher do to him?

12:18 Oh yeah, he says, you know, you're stupid, you don't need to talk that way, you don't need to speak English, blah blah blah. And and so you know, there are different reasons why kids get bullied, and there's and and even adults get bullied, and you're right, oftentimes it's that victim mode that tends to even increase it more. But you know, I guess I always have that question, and again it goes against a little bit about what you're talking about here, but I always have that question of what is it internally? Uh? Yes, I agree with you, we need to be right. Uh. And you know, as I get into the history of you know, Europe and the kings and queens and so forth. There's definitely you can see that historically there has also always been bullying. Now it may look a little bit different, but the reality is whether it's you know, different classes, or whether it has to do with slavery, which has just been a horrendous experience for so many people, there's always this sense of bullying that goes on. And I totally agree with you that many times we just need to be right and for some reason for our ego, the only way we can prove that is to bully someone else.

13:39 So it's not the only way, but it's one way. There are ways. But anyway, I want to talk about this teacher who's so called bullying your friend's son. Right, the teacher says, you shouldn't you don't need to be talking like that, you shouldn't be talking English like that. So from the student's point of view, the teacher is bullying him because he's criticizing if you're talking English. But I guarantee you that if you were to talk to the teacher and ask him why does he say these things to the boys? To the boy, he'll probably say he's not understandable, he shouldn't be doing it. I'm trying to teach him what not to do so that he'll do better in school or be accepted better. The teacher will give you a rational reason why he's doing it. Now, the boy doesn't like it, but the teacher in his mind is trying to help the boy well. And then certainly a possibility, no question. And again, as you say, it really comes down to perception, doesn't it, the perception that individuals have.

14:46 So I would also need to know how the boy is responding and how the parents of the boy is responding. You know, they're probably responding in some way and the boy. Now, if the boy and the boys' parents are responding to the teacher in some way, they're probably trying to get the teacher to stop treating the boy that way, but unwittingly and probably doing the opposite. But of course I can't know this until I talk to the parties involved well. And actually my advice was tell your son to speak English when he's in another environment of other young children that want to speak English, and don't do it in school, because it's just creating whatever issue that happens to be and so they haven't approached the teacher, and I think that it has settled down. In fact, I know that they've gotten themselves into a situation where he's able to take English in a school that teaches English on the weekends, and it's just made all the difference in the world for him because he's been able to remove himself from that situation. And you're right, so many times we do things that initiate that response and that emotional reaction of bullying that I think can happen. So let's let's get into your approach. How do we stop this bullying because it's not just in schools, as you say, it's messy, it's worldwide. Now, it's totally worldwide, and we could see the anger and everything that's going on, and we could label it bullying

16:19 or whatever we want to label it, but the reality is we've got to horrendous problem. Yeah. And by the way, every country that embarks on a campaign to demit of bullying from school discovers that it becomes a bigger problem. Interesting they're doing what the field of bullying psychology is recommending they do, but they don't realize that those recommendations make the problem continue and intensify. And I'd like to give two general reasons why the common approach to bullying is counter product great, Okay. One general reason is kids used to be told sticks and stones may break my bones, but the words will never harm me.

17:14 I grew up with this slogan. It's been given to kids for generations before me, and this is a wonderful slogan. It's it teaches kids how to stop being bullied. It expresses the fundamental difference between physical aggression and verbal aggression. Doug, if you hit me with sticks and stones, does my attitude towards the sticks and stones have any bearing on how much pain and damage they're going to do to me? Oh? Absolutely no. If I like the sticks and stones, they won't hurt me, Well, you're still gonna get hit by the sticks and stones. If we're talking about touristicks and stones, there's no question that's going to cause pain. Yeah, So my attitude towards the sticks and stones has no bearing on how much pain and damage they're going to do me. If you hit me with sticks and stones, you want hurting me and injuring me. If you call me an idiot or any other insult, does my attitude towards the insult have any bearing on how much pain and damage it's going to cause me? Oh? Absolutely, And it triggers all sorts of emotions that can make controlled I'm sure. Yeah. But what percentage does it depend on me if the insult is going to hurt me?

18:34 Oh? I would say probably one hundred percent. Yeah, it's totally up to me. If your insult is going to hurt me, it's not up to you. So when kids understand the slogan, they can decide, oh, I don't have to get upset by insults. You know, it's not sticks and stones. And if you don't get upset by insults, you don't become a victim of relentless tasing and taunting. Ever since Columbine, and even before that, kids had been taught that the sticks and stone slogan is a lie. Today kids are being taught sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can scar me forever or words can kill me. Kids are being taught that words are so incredibly painful they're much worse than having your arm broken.

19:21 Now, Doug, I don't know about you, but I would much rather be called an idiot or the worst insults in the world. Call me a fucking jew, but don't break my bones. But kids are being taught that being insulted is so incredibly horrible. So what happens when kids get insulted? Do they think, oh, no big deal, Oh no, I'm being bullied. This can kill me, this can scar me forever. So kids who learn the new slogan are more likely to get upset when they're picked on. And if you get upset, that's what makes the pick and go on endlessly. So being taught this new version that words can scar me forever or kill me makes the problem worse. But the more important reason that the common approach to bullying is making things worse is because it's all based on the idea that kids and their parents have to inform the school when a child is being bullied. And the idea is, if you don't inform the school, how can this school solve the problem? Now, telling the school will be helpful if the school happens to have a reliable way to deal with bullying, But if it doesn't have a reliable weight, it's probably going to make the problem worse. And this is you know, and schools are being taught that you have to take the side of the victim against the bully. The problem has nothing to do with the victim. We have to let them know it's not their fault in any way. It's only the problem of the course,

20:52 it's only being caused by the bully, and you have to take the side of the victim against the bully. So, Douglas, let's say you and I are kids in school and you insult me. I tell the teacher on you, and you get sent to the principal who has to do and has to interrogate you. And the principal says to you, Doug, why did you bully is he? Are you going to say, Oh, it's because I'm a bad kid and I have fun hurting other people. We're going to say, what are you talking about? I didn't bully? Is he bully? Is he is lying, he's making it up? Or he started with me and I just got back at him. Are you likely to say that you're guilty or to defend yourself and blame me? Oh? Absolutely not guilty.

21:37 Yeah. The normal thing for any human being, including adults, when they're accused of wrongdoing is to defend themselves and blame the other party. Are you going to like me better for getting you sent to the principal's office for bullying me? Well, and here's the question. You get to the principal's office. If it continues, now you send that to the schoologist. So here's a question for you. And I imagine you get a little bit of feedback on this. But as you look, if you've even looked at you know the general concept, and you've mentioned this a little bit in psychology, are most psychologists now taught to focus on the bully and figure out because that's where I was kind of coming right from the beginning. They are they taught to focus on the bully and not on the victim, to the point that they're just actually increasing the problem. Yes, there, They are taught that when you work with the victim, your job is to relieve them of any feeling that it's their fault. We have to like out of them. It's not your fault. It's not because of you. You didn't do anything wrong.

22:48 It's only because of them. They're bullies. That's what you have to do, and you have to focus on the bully. So if you come to me for help because you're being bullied, my job is to go to the bullies and make them change. Now, anybody who studies psychotherapy knows that it's very hard to make somebody else change, you know, meaning that if you come to me for help, I have to make the other people change. They're going to say, what are you talking about? This isn't my problem, it's their problem. You know. You can't go. Yeah, and your job in helping people is not to fight their battles for them against other people. But anyway, if I get you center the principal's office, that you're going to like me better or you're going to be mad at me.

23:33 Oh yeah, yeah, they're going to be even angrier with you. So it's going to continue and get worse. Exactly, you're going to tell everybody I'm a snitch, which is a social death sentence. So this is the main reason why the building problem is becoming worse, is because kids are being taught that you have to tell the school authorities on your bullies. But anyway, getting back, yes, mental health professionals and everybody is being taught that the victim has nothing to do with the problem. The bully is the problem, all right, So what's the solution. So let's say you come to me for help. And most bullying is verbal insults, you know, put downs, and even most physical fights begin with insults. So let's say you come to me for help. So I want to know who picks on you? How often do they do it? How many times a day?

24:25 How long has it been going? Gone? So, once I know the scope of the problem, I ask you, do you want the kids to stop picking on you? What will you say? Oh? Absolutely? Okay, So I'm going to teach you why they're picking on you and how to get them to stop. I have a long procedure which teaches a whole lot of basic psychology, but I'm not going to do it now because it takes at least a half an hour. But I'm going to do a very short version that anybody can do. It only takes a couple of a couple of minutes. So, uh, why insult? Why insult? The kids generally call you? You're the kid I'm working with. Oh, they say I'm stupid or I'm weird. You want them to stop saying it? Yes, right, okay, I'm going to play a game with you. Your job is to call me stupid or weird, and don't let me stop you.

25:29 If I can stop you, I win the game and you lose, and don't worry about hurting my feelings. It's it's make believe. I want you to do a good job. Go ahead, Doug. Okay, So, yeah, you are stupid, You're weird. I mean that's just the way it is. What do you talk me? I'm not stupid or weird. Yes you are. No, I'm not. I'm smart. Oh so no, no way, what do you mean? No way, I'm smart, Salvius, You're stupid. You stop smart because you want to prove you're smart. But that's not true. I am smart. Why do you think I'm not smart? Well, I watch you in school. You don't answer questions. Right, you're just stupid. Yes, yes, don't call me stupid.

26:10 I'm not stupid. Believe what you want. But you are. No, I'm not. Now you say one more time, you're going to be sorry. You're stupid. Listen, I know karate. You shut your mouth that you're going to be sorry. Yeah, we'll try it. I will in something. One more time. You're going to see what happens to you. Okay, try it. That's the night sign that you're stupid. I am not stupid. Stopping Ready, Okay, I give up. Dougie did a very nice job. I tried very hard to get you to stop calling me stupid. Did I succeed? No? Was it hard to call me stupid? Well, for me, it was hard to call you stupid, But in playing the game, No, it was not hard to call you stupid because you kept acting in a way that just kept generating even more of those emotions. Yeah, and that's not a kid wouldn't give that explanation, but a kid would say, yeah, you know, you didn't stop me.

27:08 It was easy to call call you stupid. Uh so, and I'll ask you, wasn't this kind of fun? Well? Yeah, I was feeling a little bad. You didn't look at the video. You didn't look like you were feeling better at all. Okay, it looked like you were having a wonderful time. Well I know that's because we were playing the game. Yeah, but in the game you were having a great time. You have no great time. So if you want to call me stupid, can I force you to stop? No, because it's only words. So yeah, it gets worse. Yeah, we're gonna play the game again, same game, call me stupid and don't let me stop you. Okay, So you know it is you're just playing stupid and you're really weird. So you think I'm stupid and weird? Yeah, because I happen to think that you were, you know, smart and really normal. Well, thank you, you're welcome. Yeah, you got me right there. And now now you're thanking me. Do you want to do you want to keep on insulting me this way? No? You see, they're not calling you stupid or weird because you're stupid or weird. They do it because when you get upset, they have fun. You were having fun when I was getting upset. Don't they have fun when you get upset. That's why they do it to you.

28:40 So stop getting upset. Compliment them back. If they call you stupid, say oh but I think you're smart. If they call you weird, you say, oh but you're so normal or you're so popular. And you'll see that they stop insulting you, and they they're even liking you because you're complimenting them. So try it for a couple of days and let me know how how it works. Okay, And so that's where you're teaching these kids. Yeah, now I have a much longer version. But this is a version that a teacher can do on the spot. The parent can teach their kids how to do it. It takes a few minutes and then the kid goes Oh. The real reason they do is because I get upset and they discover the solution is so easy. But I also think that kids give the kids warnings. I tell them it's not going to get better right away.

29:30 It's got to get worse in the beginning. Because the kids have been picking on you every day for a long time. They like to see getting upset. So when you're not getting upset, they're going to think something went wrong. But you have to get upset. They want you to get upset, so they're going to try harder in the beginning to upset you. So when you see them trying harder, don't think it's not working. It's working. It's just that the problem gets worse before it gets better. And the second warning I give the kid is that you have to do it all of the time. If you do it most of the time, it's not going to work. They're just going to keep undersulting you until you got upset. It's only when they see that can never upset you, they stop trying to upset you, all right. So you've got these young kids in grade school, let's say that are experiencing that bullying and you're teaching them this. How easy is it for them to actually adapt this? And how do you help them?

30:26 I mean, you know, I know that you know, as we talk about changing habits, and it is a habit. Sometimes it'll take thirty sixty ninety days to change a habit, and to have that brain change is neuro pathways to where you've actually literally changed the habit. It's a habit for those kids to respond the way that they respond, How long does it actually take them? And how do you help them to get to the point where they cement it in eternally so that they're able then to stop that bullying. Most kids get this after the first session. It's a habit, but it's not the kind of habit like your body demands it. You know, you're a smoker, so your body demands smoking. Or maybe you're a head scratcher and you scratch your head without even realizing it, and that can be a really tough habit to break because you're just your body demands it, you do it. Without even thinking. But this is not something that's happening without thinking.

31:27 You are being picked on. It's an interaction. You don't like it. You want to make the kids stop, so you get mad at them. You tell them to stop, you threaten them, you tell them, teacher run them. It's not a habit in the sense of smoking or head scratching. It's something that you've been doing over and over again because you think this is the solution. But then I teach them, know this isn't a solution. You are making it worse. So once you realize, oh, I don't have to do anything and the problem is going to get better, people are happy to do it now. I'm not saying that every kid gets it after one session. I wish every kid did, but many kids do, maybe even most kids. So some kids need more repetition on meeting with them over the course of a few weeks until they get it right. And I'll also teach them how to deal with other kinds of aggression, because insults isn't the only kind. You can be pushed around, you could be excluded.

32:27 There are many ways that people can pick on you. So I need to teach you how to deal with each one of those kinds of harassments. Okay, so let's talk about adults now. As we look around what's going on in the world right now, there's a tremendous amount of anger and mistreatment and things that are going on. And as you brought up right at the very beginning, you are Jewish. So let's talk about anti Semitism, because I know you probably very aware of that. Is that bullying or are we talking about an entirely different thing when we see people who are prejudice towards color or prejudice towards religion, Because we're seeing that across the board. What is the difference between bullying and those type of behaviors. First of all, if you're dealing with an individual case, let's say you're being picked on by the people you work with. They're putting you down for your religion, I will I can teach you how to deal with them directly so that they'll stop putting you down. Now, there's a larger thing of anti Semitism and hatred is being spread about Jews and about Israel. You as an individual can't make that stop. You know, this has to be done tackled on a much bigger level, you know, And it's very important to make a distinction between bullying

34:02 and criminal behavior. Yeah, people picking on each picking on you, you can call that bullying. And what we mean by bullying is you're being picked on repeatedly. The same people do the same thing over to you, over and over again. So that's really what makes somebody a victim of bullying. Now, let's say there's a head of a group that's calling death to Jews. This is not bullying. This is criminal behavior. Incitement to violence is a crime. You're not allowed to incite violence because inciting violence makes you guilty of violence. So if a leader of a group like Hamas is calling to death to Jews and it's teaching children from birth to hate Jews and how to kill them, this is not bullying. This is criminal behavior. It's preparing your population to commit genocide against another people. If the Nazis are teaching Europeans to hate Jews and the Jews are the source of all of the problems, this is not bullying. It's not you're picking on somebody for the fun of upsetting them. You're out to destroy them. That is the most serious crime.

35:15 When you try to get a whole nation of people killed. This is the worst crime possible. It's not they're doing it to upset you. No, they're doing it because they want to kill you. Yeah, in the workplace where you're experiencing that, Let's say, then, would you frame that as bullying if it's in the workplace where maybe there's two or three people that are making those slight comments here and there. What really counts is whether you see it as bullying. If you are the client coming to me for help and you tell me I'm being bullied, they're calling me a dirty Jew, I'll teach you what to do about it. And if I can show you how to make them stop, you know what, I think that would be a good discussion. We have a little bit of time because whether whether again, whether it's Hispanic or Black, or Jew or Christian or Islam or whatever it happens to be, we see that going on in different levels. And again I totally agree with you that when you get to the criminal level, that's an entirely different thing. But even within smaller groups, within business, within social gatherings and so forth, how do you stop it? Yeah, I'd love to hear it. So let's say you hate Jews for whatever reason, you grew up hating Jews, or you were convinced that Jews are terrible and they're the source of the world's problems. And you work with me, and you are going to say, is the you dirty Jew? You shouldn't

36:45 be working with us, or something like that, make believe you hate Jews and put me down for being a Jew, or you want to play here again. Okay, so yeah, but the first time, I'm going to do the typical thing. I think this says the right way, but put me down. Well, you're just hearing me say to my friend, you know, is he's Jewish? I mean, you know, they have such a mentality. They think they're so good and so smart, and they're the ones that make the most money among people. Oh man, you're nothing but an anti Semite. You're promoting stereotypes. Well, and you are the stereotype.

37:25 What am i? I'm the stereotype. I'm I'm a Jew and I'm proud of it. There's nothing wrong with being a Jew. Yeah, Well, talk about the people over in different countries that are being attacked by the Jews right now. They're being attacked because they're trying to kill us. Yeah, but they're killing people who are just innocent children, innocent mothers. But that's the fault of because Coms uses them as human shields. Well, you know that's what that's your excuse for going in there them. It's true that. Look but they they've been trying to kill us. They shoot thousands of rocks at us and discriminately, they're trying to destroy us. Yeah, right, what you're right, you don't, don't you know what's going on.

38:15 Look at their charter. Their charter is you have to kill every Jew wherever they are. By the way, I'm stopping here because I'm not this stuff because I do not believe anything. I just said. Okay, yeah, but it doesn't matter. But in the role play, was I making you stop saying these these things or content? No? No, no, you wouldn't have been. Yeah, you're going to continue doing these things. Who's winning in this role who's winning in this role play? Right? Yeah? It's yeah, you're you're you're winning because you're attacking me so considentally, I'm getting all upset. You're you're destroying me, So you are winning here? Could you respect me for for the way I'm responding to you? No?

38:59 Absolute, not because I look like a big idea. I'm losing self control. Would you want to be my? Am? I changing the way you think about Jews by the way, I'm answering you. No, am I treating am I treating you like a friend or an enemy? An enemy. Now we're going to do it again. This time, I'm going to treat you like a friend. Going okay, so you're hearing me say again, you know what he's to do. And just look at what they're doing and what's going on here. I mean, it's just amazing. How can we even stand them around? Yeah, you know, there's so much hatred against Jews. It's it's terrible. Yeah, and their cause untunch you think.

39:40 Yeah, And it's very easy to see the Jews as being at the fall. So you know, I don't blame you for seeing things that way. Really, yeah, I mean it seems that way. It seems like we're committing genocide, that we're killing innocent people and even babies for nothing. That's the way it seems. Yeah, it really does. Yeah, it does. The media is promoting it. Pro Palestine organizations are promoting it. You know, it seems that's the way it is. Yeah, and the people that people. You know, people have always loved to hate youse. It's been going on for thousands of years. That's true, that's true. Yeah, they all people always find a way to blame us for for their problems.

40:30 True, and it often seems that way. You know that they present in their mind, they see it a certain way, and it seems correct like you take advantage of them. You know, we only it seems like we only care about money and we want to take advantage of people. It seems that way. Yeah, it does, there's no question about it. Yeah. Okay, So you've settled me down? Yeah, uh, this way? Can you respect me more? Yes? Absolutely? This way? Could you see yourself eventually becoming my friend even though I'm a Jew? Oh? Absolutely, yeah, because I'm treating you like a friend. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not angry at you. I'm not saying your thinking is distorted. I'm validating the way you see things. But I'm nice to you. That seems that way. It's been going on for thousands of years.

41:23 Now, you might want to know more from me instead of that you to insult me. So, so fact is anti Semitism exists? You can't just make it disappear from the world. But on a one to one basis, if you have the right approach, you can change the person around by not getting upset with them and treating them like a friend who who is intelligent. So let me ask you a question. You obviously got this handled yourself. How do you help people too not be reactive to learn to be able to accept any comment? I know, as I've studied Buddhism, as I've studied other different types of religions and behavior, human behavior, and so forth, one of the things that I have found is that one of the ways in which to eliminate this anger, this fighting, all of this type of thing is to be able to accept any comment without taking it personally. How do you help people who are so highly reactive learn to take those comments and not take them personally and therefore have any emotional and perhaps a verbal or physical reaction. I do it exactly the same way that I did it with you.

42:45 I wrote play with you. I can try to explain something to you ten times. I can explain to you, don't be reacted, don't get upset with them. If I say that, you may think that I'm asking you to lose, let them get away with it. Turn the other cheek, be a doormat. But I act it out with you. And then you see that when I do it the typical way, the natural way, by getting upset, by saying you're wrong, by defending myself, it only goes on and escalates and you come out being the winner. Then I do it another way and I treat you like a friend. I don't get upset, and you see, wow, this is a much different experience and it's not a win lose situation. The way I did it. The second way is a win win situation. It's better for both of us, so that, but the role playing it makes it much more easy to accept because the person wants to win. If you're a Jew and you're being picked on, you feel like a loser. With the people at work, you want to feel like a winner. So I'm going to teach you how to win.

43:49 But it's a win win situation. Well, and then what comes through to me is this sense of personal responsibility of realizing, as you say, you know, but I am responsible for my life, I am responsible for my reaction. I am responsible, and if I'm willing to accept responsibility, and then work with you or someone you know to go through that to the point where I can learn to accept these comments and not be reactive to them. I think it makes a huge difference. So let me let me ask you a question as we're getting ready to close. If you had a message for the audience today in less than a minute, because we're going to put this on a short reil, what would be the message that you would want to share with the audience based on your lifetime of experience, the best way to get people to like and respect you more is to treat them with respect.

44:51 Everybody wants respect. So if somebody is putting you down and you get upset, they can't respect you. So you saw them respect and then they stop putting you down and they like you and respect you because you are respecting them. All right, Izzy, it's been a great, great opportunity to have this chat with you. Thank you so much. Doug was great being here. You're a wonderful interviewer. Well, thank you, and I really appreciate it. And folks, I hope you'll listen to this a few times because I think as he has such an important message to realize that you know what we are responsible for our reactions. We're responsible for how we take things in and if we accept that responsibility and work on it, we literally can change the way that mankind is behaving towards each other. So is he. Thanks again, appreciate you being on the show and my pleasure dog. Thank you, and folks, thanks for listening. I hope you'll join us again soon.

46:00 I am Dre