Forgiveness Made Easy

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This program is designed to provide general
information with regards to the subject matters covered.

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This information is given with the understanding
that neither the hosts, guests,

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sponsors, or station are engaged in
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legal counseling, professional service, or
any advice. You should seek the

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services of competent professionals before applying or
trying any suggested ideas. At the end

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of the day, it's not about
what you have or even what you've accomplished.

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It's about what you've done with those
accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted

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up, who you've made better.
It's about what you've given back. Denzel

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Washington, welcome to Inspire Vision.
Our sole purpose is to elevate the lives

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of others and to inspire you to
do the same. Barbara, welcome to

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the show. How are you doing. I'm doing really well. Thank you.

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Doctor Doug, how are you hey, I'm doing great, and thanks

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for being on the show. I
really I'm looking forward to this discussion.

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You've written a wonderful book called Forgiveness
Made Easy, and you're doing all sorts

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of other things. But I'd like
for you to share with the audience.

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What I find very interesting is the
story behind how people reach a certain point

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in their lives where they're doing the
type of things you are doing. So

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how about a little bit of background
story about yourself and what you're doing.

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Sure, well, it's an interesting
subject to have become my focus. And

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I think really as a child,
I grew up in the Catholic tradition,

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and so I had like teachings about
forgiveness. We're already sort of you know,

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like forgive your sister, you know, that kind of thing. And

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then I was very interested in personal
and spiritual development and that's really stayed with

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me for the whole of my adult
life, from really the time when I

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read Jonathan Livingston Seagull I'm sure you're
familiar with Conic book, and that started

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me asking deeper questions of life.
And then I was just interested in I

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just read lots of the material that
was available about personal and spiritual development and

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well being, and then I ended
up doing some trainings, you know,

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going on some personal spiritual development training
weekends. And there was an organization called

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the Mortar Life Program who originally came
from the States, and they were over

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in England, and I took some
of their trainings, and on the first

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weekend they had us look at all
the people that we were holding our grievances

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against, and we were invited to
be honest about this. So I lowered

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my bar and I thought, well, pretty much everyone I've ever met,

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probably, and started writing my list. And then I got to number thirty

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six and I thought, yeah,
probably resent my mom as well. Put

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her name down. And then when
the time came for us to actually do

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like a process around the forgiveness piece, I chose my mom. And what

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was significant about that is that she
had multiple sclerosis from the time I was

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fifteen. So my resentment was not
of a big dramatic event that happened,

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and a lot of stories of forgiveness
are around big dramatic things that happen and

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people amazingly finding their way to forgiveness, either by grace or choice, you

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know, whatever it is. So
mine was much more mundane but significant.

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I think because I think if we're
really honest, we do resent or hold

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grievances against the people and things that
we can't change, especially and my thinking

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more recently is that I think we
choose to resent things or hold a grievance

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because we don't know how to grieve. And that was definitely true of my

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experience with my mom. How do
you grieve something that's a fifteen year ongoing

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decline in health that you're managing as
a family. So that really was the

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beginning of my interest in forgiveness.
And then I trained with the Mortal Life

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Program to teach some of their courses, and then I carried on being a

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mentor, and then went into coaching, and just all of this sort of

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like carried on, and then I
ended up with Great Joy working on a

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retreat for seven years, and we
would help people do a juice fast and

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do some very deep emotional work so
they would calm wanting a little strap line

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was one week to change your life, and we would help them physically,

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but we would also help them emotionally
and mentally and spiritually. And at that

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point I got really interested in why
some of the clients would really struggle letting

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go of grievances and letting go of
their resentment and carrying those old stories.

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And then other people like there was
one really lovely woman who was in her

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seventies when she came to us,
and she had been abused as a t

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child, and when she did her
her process where we were helping her to

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forgive, she said, afterwards,
all of that bad feeling that I've been

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holding in my body, it's all
gone. And so she that was decades

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of holding onto something that she didn't
know how to release, and she'd never

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told anybody about it. And so
my interest was really in how do we

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help people who really do want to
let go of their grievances and forgive.

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And I use a very particular definition
of forgiveness, which are our share as

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well. But I I was just
fascinated by it, and then I didn't

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decided I was going to write a
book about it, and then really it's

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just it's kind of gone on from
there. And I consider myself a specialist

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because I find it so fascinating,
but by no means an expert, because

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I'm still learning all the time about
it. Well, and you know that's

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wonderful. What is intro is is
you've observed these people, and as you've

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worked with people, you know there
are so many different approaches to trying to

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help people overcome emotional issues. And
you're talking about people that hold in that

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resentment or whatever that happens to be. As we get into this discussion,

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what is the actual outcome that you
have observed for people from a standpoint of

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emotional healing as well as maybe physical
healing, whatever that happens to be.

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What has been your observation, and
then we can get into really talking about

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it. Several things. I mean, on the retreats, because people were

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also doing a deep cleanse for the
body. I remember one particular client who

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came with a stick and left without
it. But because we were working on

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every single level, we don't know
how much of that was just the cleanse

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or how much was that the emotional
work that she was also doing and releasing

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the most the most common response that
I get from people after they've because I

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work one to one with people.
So I coped and in my book there's

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a seven step Forgiveness Made Easy process, So it literally is a guided,

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step by step like way of taking
somebody through. It's like an inner ritual,

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you know, like a guide.
Did you do it with your eyes

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closed? And it's it's a dialogue. It's based on Jungian active imagination therapy,

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so you're you're actually speaking out loud
as if you're having the kind of

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conversation person that you would never normally
be able to have, and that can

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be incredibly releasing because you're hearing yourself
say things, and in your imagination,

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they're hearing you, and you know, I set it up in a way

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that that helps to get the kind
of completion that you can never get in

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real life. And for example,
there was one woman who came and her

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father died before she'd had her children, so he never met the grandchildren.

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So in her imagination, I said, invite the grandchildren to the fire,

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let them meet, and she immediately
started weeping because to her the grandchildren and

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her father were meeting for the first
time. You know, so you can.

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So it's hard to quantify what the
result of that kind of thing is,

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but in terms of peace of heart, I think that's probably the best

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thing. You know, most people
say I feel lighter after they've done a

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process, and I'll often say do
you want your grievances back again? And

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they're like, no, I'm fine, I don't want them back, you

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know, because you know, even
having held onto things for such a long

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time, they're so familiar in who
would I be without that thought or without

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that grievance, and so there is
an inquiry that has to happen as well

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well. And I think you hit
on a really good point in this sense

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of peace. You know, so
many people don't ever experience peace in their

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lives, true piece, and you
know that's been a promise from different individuals,

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and yet they don't experience it.
And so if that happens to be

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the outcome, what a wonderful blessing. So let's get into that. Well,

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first of all, you were going
to define your own definition of forgiveness,

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and then we can talk a little
bit more about that. Yes,

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thank you, Thank you for reminding
me about that. This is really helpful

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because I think there's such a lot
of misunderstanding around what forgiveness is and what

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it isn't and being able to hone
it down to a very specific thing can

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help us when we're thinking about it. And I learned this on my original

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Mortal Life Weekend from k Bradford Brown, who was one of the creators of

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that program, and he says,
forgiveness is the absolute refusal to hold ill

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will against someone for what they did
or didn't do. And I'll say it

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again because it's really long. Forgiveness
is the absolute refusal to hold ill will

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or a grievance or grudge against someone
for what they did or didn't do.

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And I like to demonstrate it kind
of like using like this is sort of

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the grievances that we gather up in
our everyday lives. Okay, and this

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is going to be on a podcast
too, so explained to the audience.

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So I'm gathering up all of the
things on my desk, like my pens,

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my flask, my water, and
then the absolute refusal is when you

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put them back down again and your
hands are empty, and that helps to

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kind of express the sort of visceral
release of like I'm I am choosing to

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not hold the ill will. And
it doesn't mean that it's easy, and

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it doesn't mean it's going to happen
straight away, and some people have to

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hold onto their grievances for twenty years
or longer before they feel okay, actually,

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this this is starting to hurt my
arms, you know, this is

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maybe it's not such a good deal, maybe it's not really getting the results

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that I want it to get.
And then that's usually when they contact me.

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Well, and that's that's a pretty
deep definition of being able to really

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let go. I mean, I've
heard different definitions of forgiveness, and I

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think there's some standard ones out there. In your mind. When most people

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come to you and they're going to
learn about quote forgiveness, what in their

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mind is that really mean? And
obviously then you change that to the way

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that you're defining it. But what
do most people think about forgiveness? Well,

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I mean, I can't speak for
everybody, but I think the most

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common misunderstandings are that it's like taking
a weaker position, or it's like saying

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it's okay, or like, you
know, like we we even say we

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want to get even, you know, when something bad happens, And so

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forgiveness is saying I'm going to not
insist on any kind of vengeance or retribution.

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So that means you take the damage, but you don't then try and

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damage back. You're not trying to
get some kind of equanimity. And I

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think that's what's really hard is that
we feel this injustice and we will have

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a sense that things should be fair
and from you know, from childhood and

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like nothing's fair. Your sister always
gets more things than you do, or

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you're you know, like, you
know, like we have this sort of

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sense of that isn't fair, and
so when things happen, there's a sense

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of injustice that is really uncomfortable because
we want to make an adjustment. And

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I think that when people come to
do forgiveness work, they're they're afraid that

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it means that the other person will
get away with it, or they're afraid

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they have to reconcile. And of
course forgiveness is not reconciliation. And also

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forgiveness is not about not holding boundaries. So you can still take somebody to

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court, you know, but you
don't have to hate them while you're doing

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it. You can you can decide
this is the end of the marriage,

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and you know, I love you
and let's be let's cope, you know,

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raise the children, but in separate
houses. But you don't have to

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hate the person while you're doing it. I smile, you know when it

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comes my mind. I just came
back from a trip, a guide a

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trip, and for me it was
a nightmare. The way it had been

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presented from the salespeople and from the
agenda, It's like, wow, this

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is going to just be incredible.
And it was a week long one and

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by the time I was ready to
leave midway through. Couldn't do that because

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I couldn't change my flights. But
ultimately, I've been in contact with them

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and they're just really not responding to
the whole challenge. And I'm thinking,

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Okay, I'm going to write,
you know, I'm going to go on

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Google and I'm going to write a
review that is not going to be kind.

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And so with that situation, what
would you say to me, because

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that's probably a general situation that many
people experience in different ways. Yeah,

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it's a great it's a really great
example. It really is. Actually so

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two things. One because the work
that I do, some of it's untangling

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the mind. So looking at the
meaning that you're making like they've got one

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over on me, or they missold
me, they've taken advantage, they must

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think I'm stupid, they owe me
money, you know. So there's all

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that that sort of mental activity that
that would be worth addressing. But then

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you know what I would do is
I would do my seven step forgiveness made

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easy process on them because it kind
of helps to free me so that when

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I do write my letter or I
do decide what is it that I'm going

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to do as you know, my
response to what's happened that I'm doing it

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from a really clean place, not
from a vengeful place. And that's just

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my point. So it's not that
I don't write that review, it's that

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I go through those seven steps first
to make sure when I write that review

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it comes from an entirely different emotional
perspective. Yeah, and and and you

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would probably you know, like you
might still say some of the same things.

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You might, but it would be
it would be clean rather than they're

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the worst company, don't ever go
anywhere near than blah blah blah. You

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would just say this was not what
I expected, these things didn't happen,

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but that But there's I think there's
I think it's different. There's a there's

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a we have this in our relationships
when somebody and I'm actually demonstrating again with

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my pens, is like when someone's
done something and you're trying to tell them

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all the things they've done wrong,
it's really hard to hear. Whereas if

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you do your inner work and you
get really clear, can we have a

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conversation about that one thing that then
you're really clear that actually that is the

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big issue. Yes, as opposed
to just all of my meaning and all

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the resentment, and you you're taking
advantage of me, and you know,

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blah blah blah. Well, and
you know, forgiveness, I think it

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can be so difficult. And what
do you find, really are the five

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most common obstacles to forgiveness that people
experience. Yeah, well that one of

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them is the definition, so thinking
that forgiveness means letting the other person off

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the hook. Forgiveness is about what
you choose to keep in your heart.

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And I describe it a bit like
velcrow. You know, if you're like

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like velcro, you're going to get
hooked onto everything. If you do forgiveness

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work, then you can become more
like teflon, so that all those things

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still happen, you don't get hooked
or reactive in the same way. But

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the five biggest obstacles, so one
of them is having a definition that works.

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Another one is not really realizing that
we are resenting somebody in the first

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place, or that we need to
hold onto the that we're holding onto a

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grudge. Often we'll just say well
no, but they just you know,

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they need to be honest about what
they're providing. It's like so we're not

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looking actually what's going on inside of
ourselves. We're projecting it outwards. And

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also sometimes people who are in a
personal or spiritual development kind of field,

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they might go, oh, no, I understand, no, no,

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you know, she was doing the
best she could, you know. But

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then there's still that part in you
that's compressed or shut down or kind of

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crusted over that, you know,
the painful heart because again I mean I

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just demonstrating with my props again with
a book in front of my heart,

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you know, like when you're protecting
yourself, like the resentment can feel like

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it's it's giving you a protection over
your heart. And we don't want to

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be vulnerable, you know. We
find it really hard. And one of

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the main reasons why we hold onto
our resentment is because we think it gets

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us the things that we haven't had, like someone giving us the compassion or

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the care that we didn't get.
And like I said about I think we

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hold our resemble because we don't know
how to grieve. I mean we're I

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mean, especially you know in the
Western culture, we're not very good at

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death or grieving or anything like that, especially Brits as well. So there's

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there's a lot of things, different
things going on. So I think vulnerability

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is a really big reason why we
we don't want to forgive, because we

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don't want to make ourselves vulnerable.
But the root of the world word vulnerable

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comes from vulner which means to be
wounded. And of course we are wounded

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by the things that happen in life, and we have our hearts broken and

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challenges, you know, happen,
and people that we love die, and

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so the illusion that this is actually
a better way to live your life is

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it just means that we've kind of
crusted over the heart and that we were

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not really living, you know,
like engaged. And Funnily enough, I

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had a client recently who came and
she the reason she came was because her

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resentment of her previous husband was leaking
into her current really relationship. Yes,

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and that that can happen, and
not just in our special relationships, but

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in all our relationships. That's true. So that's number two mistake. What's

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what's number three? Now, Number
three is the things that we get out

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of our resentment, which is to
do with our ego, because we like

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the moral high ground, you know, like you you'll have the moral high

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ground at the moment in your situation
because they did you wrong, and there's

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there's something quite delicious about that.
And you know, having the the you

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know like well, you know,
looking down on the other people from your

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high horse, that there are there
are things that we get from our resentment

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that are to do with our ego
and some and some of it is not

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pretty. And this is again,
this is the sort of thing that we're

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not necessarily looking at that we can
we can hold onto resentment because we we're

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getting like an excuse like I can
I can well, I can be a

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victim. I can tell myself,
well, you know, I can't really

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do this thing in life because this
happened to me or these people did me

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wrong. And we we sort of
play ourselves down or act smaller because we're

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not we're giving our power away to
the thing that happened. And so there's

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so the ego can play games because
always like we're always trying to sort of

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like you know, measure you know, where are we in the social standing?

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And I think the resentment, the
things that we resent, can be

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part of that is like putting ourselves
down or aggrandizing. It can be either,

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yeah, either way either way,
all right, and then number four

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obstacle, Yeah, so that the
the other one is so this is kind

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of the flip side of why we
hold our resentments, you know, like

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we there's something we get out of
it that we're not aware of. So

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there are payoffs, there benefits.
The other side is that we're not aware

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that it costs us anything. Like
we're not thinking, oh, yeah,

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I must I'm must do my forgiveness
work, I must write a list and

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free my heart. We're just like, well, it's just my life and

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I'm just getting on and you know, they did me wrong and I hate

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these people and I'm never going to
let those people off the hook. And

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you know, like we think that
that's sort of defining ourselves without realizing,

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actually, what's the cost of living
with my heart shut down? And like

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the client realizing actually the anger is
leaking over into my relationship? What about

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your peace of mind? What about
the courtersole levels? You know? And

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resentment. Then again, the etymology
I love, I love kind of understanding

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what's underneath the words is centire,
which means to feel so refeel means that

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you're feeling all of those feelings again, that you know they did that,

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you know, and we're feeling the
feelings over and over and over again,

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and we're we're not aware that that
has a detriment. And there's there's some

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you probably heard, there's some lovely
phrases about holding onto resentment is like taking

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poison and hoping the other person will
die, or my particular favorite, which

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is holding onto resentment is like setting
yourself on fire and hoping the other person

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is bothered by the smoke. You
know, they're not even in the vicinity,

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and you're hoping that your rage will
waft over there in a significant way

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and make them change their minds and
apologize and repent, you know. So

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the downsides and that there are scientific
studies that show the impact of grievances over

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time to our to the detriment of
our health like high blood pressure or high

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courters or levels and heart disease.
Well, and if nothing else, the

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effect that it has in our life
of not experiencing that true peace, and

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that you know, when you're not
feeling peace, you're not really experiencing that

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pure joy, that pure happiness that
we all deserve to be able to experience.

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So let's let's talk about the book
for Ginness Made Easy. You said,

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there are what seven steps that you
talk about? Do you mind going

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through and just briefly talking about each
of those steps and how does how does

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an individual you know go through each
one of those steps? Yeah, and

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just to say because like the fifth
obstacle is not knowing how or not having

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a way of doing it. And
that's really why I created the process the

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way I did. Again, like
I said on the retreat, I was

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really looking what works, what really
what worked, what doesn't work. And

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I'd also done some training with a
woman called Brandon Baes who does something called

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the Journey, which is again an
NLP kind of technique, and then also

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read a lot of Ken Wilber,
the American philosopher, and I was interested

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in his shadow work, and you
know, so I kind of synthesized quite

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a few things together with some of
the teaching from the Mortal Life Program.

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And so so it's the way the
steps work are really it's all in one.

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It's like one ritual if you like, a forgiveness. And like I

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said, sometimes people take twenty years
before they think, actually this is not

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a good deal. I need to
let this go. And the peace in

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your heart that you're talking about,
Doug is really important because you know,

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often when people are on their deathbeds, they're thinking, I really wish i'd

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cleared that up. So this is
kind of like an opportunity to you know,

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do your work in a safe way. And it's not like restorative justice

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where you're actually meeting the person,
which I think can be quite confronting.

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This is like practice and you have
the conversation with a person, and that

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means that you can be doing it
whether they're still alive or not, whether

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they're still in your life or not, because it's just in your imagination.

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And so the way I guide it, you know, the beginning of the

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process, you're just making eye contact
with the person. Then you have like

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a heart to heart. So the
second step is a heart to heart.

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The third step is like a shoe
to shoe where you switch positions, and

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that's really really important. So in
the second step, the heart to heart,

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you get to say everything that needs
to be said, you know,

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like the full extent of everything that
you you may never have said, you

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know, like when I was working
with my mom, he used to resent

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have wearing pop socks. I mean, that's just like a really random,

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petty little thing. But it's like
you just like saying all of the things,

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so it's like really literally emptying out
everything so that you are not holding

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onto anything. And then and then
it becomes a dialogue where you let the

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other person reply and you switch shoes, so you then speak as them.

335
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So are you doing this? Are
you doing this mentally? Are you actually

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doing it verbally? Out loud?
Verbally? So, how how do people

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you know, as we go through
each of the steps. Yeah, I'd

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love more in depth discussion about how
do they do that? Well? Well,

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usually with support, I mean,
although although the process, it's like

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I've outlined the process in my book
and that there is like a free download

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of me guiding you through it as
part of the book. But I also

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host online forgiveness fields, like a
practice place, so like a you know,

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like a yoga studio. So this
is for forgiveness practice. So people

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come and then I do a little
introduction, so talking a bit like I

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have done with you, and then
for the next sort of like forty five

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minutes, I guide people through the
whole process. And so and zoom is

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fantastic because you can have a group
of people everybody works with their microphones are

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off, and then you can speak
out loud and say what needs to be

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said. And then so I guide
the whole group through the process like one

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step at a time, and then
they indicate, you know, by putting

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their hand, you know, so
I can see it that they're finished with

352
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that particular step, and then we
go through together in what I call a

353
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forgiveness field. And so that's so
that's so that's kind of like how it's

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done, if you like, is
okay? And you know what, it's

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so important for people to realize so
many times we're trying to do things on

356
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our own and to be able to
have someone to guide us such as what

357
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you're doing and particularly online I think
best fast, it is so important to

358
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understand. So all right, that
really helps to understand. Then there's actually

359
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some guidance that's going on with that. So that was step number two.

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What was step number three? That
was? That was? That was three

361
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actually, So the first one is
eye to eye, so you're just setting

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it up and just connecting. Then
it's heart to heart, then it's shoe

363
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to shoe, and then the next
step is taking it like a higher view.

364
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So I call it the balcony,
but you know, like the story

365
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of Scrooge when he gets taken up
by the ghosts of pass present and future,

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so that you then have a different
view. So you're then able the

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other person is able to see the
damage that they may have done or take

368
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responsibility for the things they couldn't take
responsibility for. And there's and there's this

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sense of shifting it out of the
kind of personality ego to ego, and

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you're just taking it to a high
level way. Both of you have a

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bit more equanimity and a bit more
distance, which is, you know that

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the thing that's what life provides us
as if we get older, we get

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a bit of distance. But we
also need a way. And I'm not

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saying that my way is the only
way. You know. People obviously have

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to find something that works for them, and I don't. I don't,

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you know, like whatever works for
you is good, you know, But

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I'm just I just got really interested
in what are the parts that need to

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happen. And one of them,
you know, like I was curious where

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did people get stuck? And one
of them was not being able to say

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everything you need to say. If
people were a little bit withheld or they

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just said, oh, I just
understand you know, I know what she's

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like. I don't need to say
it all. They would be the ones

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who would find it hard when we
got to the forgiveness part of the forgiveness

384
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process, if you like, because
you haven't you haven't emptied it all out.

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It's like, and I often talk
about it's especially if you use a

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younger version. So if things happen
when you're a child, and when I

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work one to one with people,
I can do that much more deeply that

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there's something that's stuck and the little
you, even though mommy and Daddy may

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have been doing the best thing to
send you to that school that's in another

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neighborhood, and you have to lose
all your friends to the little you,

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that's devastating and you don't get a
choice. And so the opportunity is in

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the imaginary conversation. The little you
get the opportunities to say, ouch,

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that didn't work for me, I
wish I wish you'd been around more,

394
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or I wish you hadn't done that
well, you know, like these unaired

395
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wishes, because you just have to
get on with it. When you're a

396
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kid, so there's all of that
permission. And then so when you're on

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the higher realms, if you like, at the balcony level, you're able

398
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to sort of see, oh,
okay, well I can see that's my

399
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part, that's their part, and
the other person can see the risk,

400
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you know, the consequences, because
that's the other thing. Often there are

401
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very long consequences to things that happen
in early childhoods. We make decisions or

402
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I must never you know, show
my anger to anybody, or and then

403
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wonder why we can't set boundaries,
you know, like you know, there's

404
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things that need to be undone.
Yeah, and so that would be that's

405
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so really that's the fourth The fourth
step is that that reach higher, and

406
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then the fifth is this sort of
then that's where we do the exchange.

407
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So we're looking at what what have
the payoffs been? Why have I held

408
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onto my resentment for so long?
What's it costing me? And then sometimes

409
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:26.400
there's that sense of well, you
you took those things away from me or

410
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:30.119
I gave them to you, you
know, like things like my self esteem

411
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:34.039
or you know, I felt disempowered
or you know, like there's so there's

412
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:37.880
things that might be needing to be
restored, and you know, like to

413
00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:41.559
do that what we're talking about,
that sense of bathing, and you can

414
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:45.559
do that in your imagination, so
you can get back the things that were

415
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:49.920
taken from you or that you gave
up too soon, or claim back the

416
00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:53.200
things that you want to claim again, like your power or whatever. And

417
00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:56.960
again, the power of the imagination
is just astonishing. And you know,

418
00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:00.920
and when I when I'm guiding people, it's almost like I just make it

419
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:07.079
possible and I'm as undirective as I
can be, and they're saying, oh,

420
00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:10.039
they've just given me an orb or
you know, like whatever it is,

421
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:14.279
you know, like their imagine,
your imagination makes the medicine for you.

422
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:18.880
Yes, yes, that's number five. Number six. Number five.

423
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:26.920
Number six is the actual part where
we say some very particular words about forgiveness,

424
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:30.240
you know, where it's like a
like a vow where you say,

425
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:34.160
I choose to release my ill will
you know everything that I've held against you.

426
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:37.200
So there's like a little there's some
phrases that I actually say, and

427
00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:41.240
the and the clients you know,
do repeat after me kind of thing,

428
00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:45.559
but like a bit like a wedding
vow, but rather than meeting and joining

429
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:49.799
your unjoining. So it's like an
undoing vow if you like that, and

430
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:53.799
that's that's what we do. And
then the last step, the seventh step,

431
00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:57.319
is if there's anything else that needs
to be said or cleared up or

432
00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:02.920
communicated and any repair. And often
there's a if the person's still alive and

433
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:07.559
they're still in your life, it
may be that you have a new intention,

434
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:10.359
you know, like from now on, I'm going to remember what your

435
00:32:10.359 --> 00:32:14.400
limitations are and I'm going to treat
you with kindness. Or I'm going to

436
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:16.799
set really clear boundaries. If you
phone me up and you're rude to me

437
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:21.240
every single time, I'm going to
put the phone down. I'm going to

438
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:23.279
say, speak to me when you're
ready to be kind and put the phone

439
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:28.400
down. Every single time. I
set the boundary, you know, like

440
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:30.799
because that's what's really important. But
I'm going to teach you and I'm going

441
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:37.000
to treat you with love. That's
wonderful. And what do you find,

442
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:40.920
you know, there's so many relationships
that struggle right now. How do you

443
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:47.359
find that the sense of forgiveness really
transforms the quality of relationships? Well,

444
00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:52.079
I mean, I for me,
it's like an essential practice for all relationships,

445
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:55.279
you know, like for your kids, for your friends, you know,

446
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:59.599
you're in laws, your parents.
You know that. That's why I

447
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:02.240
talk of it as a practice.
So I think the other problem, if

448
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:06.400
you like, with the way we
think about forgiveness in the world, is

449
00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:09.319
it's only for heinous things, you
know, like really different. You know,

450
00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:14.880
like no one's having a conversation about
forgiveness in terms of the global picture

451
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:20.240
at the moment, because we're way
too involved in that whole situation that you

452
00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:24.400
know that occasionally you hear somebody saying, I don't want to seek vengeance,

453
00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:30.759
not in my name but the whole
you know, like but in our individual

454
00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:35.119
lives. You know, it's my
preference. And this is this is sort

455
00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:37.799
of like my vision for the world
is that we each do our forgiveness work.

456
00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:42.920
And if you imagine, like every
single person decides, Okay, I'm

457
00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:45.480
going to write my list, this
is what I recommend on my classes.

458
00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:50.279
You write your list of all the
people that you know you've held aggrievance against,

459
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:53.000
big and small, and you start
with some of the easier ones.

460
00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:55.880
So you know, maybe the thing
that's happened to you recently that was sort

461
00:33:55.880 --> 00:34:00.279
of like relatively like a contained thing, and so you just decide, okay,

462
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:04.079
I'm gonna I'm going to clear my
field. So just like you do

463
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:07.199
a yoga practice, or you know, you take your recycling bins out every

464
00:34:07.239 --> 00:34:10.000
now and then, or you go
to the hygienist, you know, So

465
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:16.000
you do your forgiveness work as a
mental health practice and as a relational practice,

466
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:20.639
because the little grudges and gripes and
grievance to say, you know,

467
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:23.079
they build up in every relationship.
You know, you know, you don't

468
00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:25.599
put the lid on the tooth basse, and I've asked you fifteen times to

469
00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:28.800
take the bins out, you know, and we hold, you know,

470
00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:32.880
all these little grudges and then we
clear up and then actually, can we

471
00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:37.079
have a conversation about that one thing. It's just I don't know if you

472
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:42.039
can feel the difference energetically between somebody
just trying to just like tell you all

473
00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:45.360
the ways that you're wrong and without
wanting to, you know, because we

474
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:49.199
always get defensive when people are criticizing
us. And so if you do your

475
00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:52.840
forgiveness work in the privacy of your
own space, and sometimes I have people

476
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:55.960
work in their cars because they want
to be able to speak freely. But

477
00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:00.280
you do your practice and then I
mean, the funny thing is because this

478
00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:04.320
has been my practice for thirty years, and you know, obviously I'm an

479
00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:06.840
advocate for it. But like,
there was one time I was going to

480
00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:08.840
meet an old childhood friend and we
hadn't seen each other for a long time,

481
00:35:09.159 --> 00:35:12.920
and she always did better than me
at school, and my grandma's would

482
00:35:12.920 --> 00:35:15.199
always say, oh, how did
Jane do? And I go, oh,

483
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:16.599
she got straight days again, you
know, And so there was a

484
00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:20.920
bit of competition, and so I
did some forgiveness work before we met,

485
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:24.559
and we had the sweetest time,
and she didn't do anything. It was

486
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:28.960
just me, just the way I
was with her because I didn't have my

487
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:31.760
whole, you know, ton of
grievances with me, you know. Well,

488
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:35.920
and how long does it take?
I'm really curious because you talk about

489
00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:40.320
forgiveness, and I love the fact
that you talk about how lank of forgiveness

490
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:44.039
even on those little things like you
know, how word do you put your

491
00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:47.000
toothbrush and down? Those type of
things can really affect a relationship. How

492
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:54.119
long does it take to really get
to that level of forgiveness? Well,

493
00:35:54.679 --> 00:36:00.159
in the practice. So in the
master classes that you on Zoom, that's

494
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:06.119
a ninety minute session and that includes
a little bit of preparation and that then

495
00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:10.239
the process and a little bit of
time afterwards to for questions or whatever if

496
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:16.519
people want to ask something. So
but if there's something very deep and old

497
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:21.320
and you're doing one to one work
with me, I do a ninety minute

498
00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:25.800
session just with you and one one
client. Recently, we did three forgiveness

499
00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:30.400
sessions on her mum of ninety minutes
because there was such a lot of material

500
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:35.639
and such a lot of you know, challenging experiences that she'd had. Yeah,

501
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:38.360
so it can take time. It
can take time. It sometimes yeah,

502
00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:42.880
oh my goodness. So it really
depends on the person. But you

503
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:45.679
know, for your thing, you
know, with with the kind of company

504
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:49.760
that you know were misleading, that
would probably be like fifteen minutes, twenty

505
00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:52.480
minutes, because it's not that much
to say. It's not like a whole

506
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:55.440
history with your mother of you know, forty five years or whatever, right,

507
00:36:55.639 --> 00:37:00.559
right, So, and you know, I think I think that probably

508
00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:05.039
the biggest challenge and you mentioned this
at the first using the sense and word

509
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:09.000
of awareness becoming aware, and this
is why I love having you on the

510
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:15.800
show because so many people may be
experiencing challenges in their life. They're not

511
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:20.480
feeling that sense of peace, they're
not feeling that sense of joy, and

512
00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:24.599
all of a sudden, listening to
what you're talking about can create a sense

513
00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:30.840
of awareness for them that oh,
wow, you know, I'm experiencing this,

514
00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:36.000
and now maybe this is why.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly,

515
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:37.719
and you know, and it really
is the key. In fact,

516
00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:40.840
I was watching the beginning of a
podcast but I didn't finish watching where they

517
00:37:40.840 --> 00:37:46.920
were saying that the main reason why
couples separate is contempt, which is just

518
00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:53.480
another good old word for resentment.
Yes, so if you can do your

519
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:57.679
work, I mean, that's I
mean, you would never just let your

520
00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:01.159
bins build up. You just don't, you know, You bag them up

521
00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:06.599
and you take them out and hopefully
they get collected or recycled or whatever.

522
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:08.639
You don't just leave it all festering
in the house. But we do with

523
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:14.480
our emotional things. And we talk
a lot about mental health, but we

524
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:16.840
don't really talk about our emotional health. We mean both, but there's a

525
00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:22.480
differ between your thinking and you're feeling
and that and that's really the realm.

526
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:27.360
I like to say that forgiveness is
the equivalent of mindfulness. It's for the

527
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:30.320
heart. It's the work of the
heart. But you mentioned, you know,

528
00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:36.360
these relationships and the resentment that can
cause a lot of the divorce and

529
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:39.199
the separation and so forth. But
it really takes two, doesn't it,

530
00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:43.199
Because if you have one that's doing
this work and the other one that's not

531
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:47.639
willing to do that work, that
creates an issue, doesn't it? Well,

532
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:52.039
it can. I mean. The
thing is what's wonderful about doing your

533
00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:57.199
forgiveness work is it is autonomous because
you're the only heart, you know,

534
00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:00.360
like the only chess piece in life
that you have any control over it is

535
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:02.840
you. So the only heart you
can decide am I going to keep it

536
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:07.239
festering with snakes in it? Or
I'm going to not? And you can't.

537
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:09.280
You can say I would love you
to do your forgiveness work on me,

538
00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:14.119
please, will you? But that
whether the other person does or doesn't

539
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:16.599
is like you have no control over
that, but you can decide. And

540
00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:21.719
then if they stay full of resentment, and then at that point you then

541
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:24.280
say I don't think I can continue
in this relationship with you? Yes,

542
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:29.840
I mean, obviously there are situations
where they should not stay in the relationship,

543
00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:35.760
but what you're saying is for those
situations to be able to walk away

544
00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:44.000
with your sense of forgiveness excuse me, makes a big difference, exactly exactly.

545
00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:50.679
I mean, I can't as yet
find a downside to forgiveness, and

546
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:54.519
that's and that's quite potent. It's
like, what are the actual downsides?

547
00:39:55.320 --> 00:40:00.159
Because if you still have boundaries and
you still know, you know, like

548
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:05.519
what you will and won't accept from
the other person, and you're you know,

549
00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:12.880
clear, like, what are the
downsides of not choosing to hate anyone?

550
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:15.360
I mean to me, that seems
like a really smart move. I

551
00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:19.719
don't hate anyone. I'm totally in
charge of whether or not I hate people.

552
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:23.360
That means I'm free, and it
also means I'm powerful because I'm choosing

553
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:28.960
what happens with my heart. Well, and I love that message. So

554
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:31.639
as we as we close, let
me just ask you when more time.

555
00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:35.760
You talked about it at the beginning, but let's talk about how people can

556
00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:42.039
reach out to you and what you're
actually offering to them from your website.

557
00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:44.960
Yeah, well, thank you very
much for the opportunity to do that.

558
00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:47.000
So there's a few things. So
one is my book you know that that's

559
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:52.199
obviously an easy way in to read
more about forgiveness and the Five Obstacles.

560
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:58.599
And then I do host these online
forgiveness fields, and I call them forgiveness

561
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:02.559
fields for two reasons. One is
Charles Eisenstein, the writer, his idea

562
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:07.360
of when we forgive, there's a
sort of resonance, there's a there's a

563
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:12.639
field, if you like, and
when anybody forgives, it just adds to

564
00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:15.119
that quite sort of almost like a
chord of music. It adds to that.

565
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:20.719
And then also there's a beautiful,
roomy poem which says out beyond ideas

566
00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:23.639
of right doing and wrongdoing, there's
a field. I'll meet you there.

567
00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:29.199
And that's the sense of like we're
meeting in like neutral territory, like no

568
00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:32.719
man's land, and we can lay
down our own arms, we can lay

569
00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:37.679
down the weapons that we're holding,
we can lay down the shields of our

570
00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:42.280
own heart. Because I really believe
that our forgiveness is an act of amnesty

571
00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:45.639
for the whole of humanity, and
if we want to have a world that's

572
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:49.000
more at peace, we have to
do the inner work as well, and

573
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:57.039
there's there's even I quote a beautiful
a guy called William Yuri who's a peace

574
00:41:57.079 --> 00:42:00.159
negotiator, and he says, you
know, like, if you told me

575
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:02.840
thirty five years ago that the secret
to peace in the world was inner piece,

576
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:07.360
he said, I would have thought
you'd be like naive and like ridiculous.

577
00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:09.880
I was focusing on strategies for negotiation, and he says, now,

578
00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:14.519
I realize that we won't have peace
in the world until we have peace in

579
00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:16.480
our own hearts. So that's why
I invite people to calm, and in

580
00:42:16.519 --> 00:42:22.039
fact, on Remembrance Sunday on the
twelfth of November, I'm doing a forgiveness

581
00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:24.840
field, which is dedicated to peace. So you're basically you can calm and

582
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:29.920
you calm and lay down your arms
against the people who you know, like

583
00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:32.159
ripped you off, and that would
be your pledge to peace. So you

584
00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:36.800
pledge your heart to peace by doing
a just you just choose one thing to

585
00:42:36.840 --> 00:42:43.280
forgive and just do that. A
download, I do, yes, Then

586
00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:45.599
that's that's from my book. It's
like a free download when you get the

587
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:49.199
book as well. Yeah, yeah, And you can get the first two

588
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:52.119
chapters of my book on my website. And then also I work one to

589
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:54.960
one with people via zoom, So
from anybody all over the world. If

590
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:59.800
you know you've got something deep that
you really want to work on with somebody,

591
00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:04.599
than I want one to one and
mentioned the name of the website again

592
00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:09.320
and the website thank you is Forgiveness
Made Easy dot co dot uk, dot

593
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:15.519
co dot UK. So dot co
dot UK. Yeah, all right,

594
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:20.719
dot co dot UK. Barber,
thank you so much. This is this

595
00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:24.800
has just been fascinating for me as
we go through this discussion. This is

596
00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:29.880
this is some insights that I really
hadn't thought about from the perspective that you've

597
00:43:29.880 --> 00:43:34.599
shared. So thank you so much
for sharing with us. Yeah, that's

598
00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:37.440
absolutely my pleasure. Thank you for
giving me the space because you can imagine

599
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:40.000
it's quite a controversial subject so and
I love being able to speak about it.

600
00:43:40.039 --> 00:43:45.079
And I do think it's it's a
an idea and a practice whose time

601
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:50.599
has come. Yes, aimen to
that, and folks, I hope you're

602
00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:53.480
listening, and I hope you'll go
to that website and if you know,

603
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:58.159
and really start to understand a little
bit more, because you know, Barbara,

604
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:01.639
as you say, it isn't just
the nerpy for ourselves but potentially the

605
00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:07.360
peace for the world, and that
is so important, so thank you and

606
00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:15.599
folks, thanks for listening. Hope
you'll join us again soon and have a wonderful week