Dancing With Disruption

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This program is designed to provide general
information with regards to the subject matters covered.

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This information is given with the understanding
that neither the hosts, guests,

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sponsors, or station are engaged in
rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,

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legal counseling, professional service, or
any advice. You should seek the

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services of competent professionals before applying or
trying any suggested ideas. You know,

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so often in our lives, we
all experienced some type of disruption, something

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that says we're going to experience change
in our lives, and that can be

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one of the most difficult and scary
things that we can experience. And yet

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sometimes if we look at it from
a different perspective and a different perception,

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it's a blessing that's going to create
a new adventure for us, a new

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life, a new sense of joy
and happiness. I'm really pleased to have

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Linda Rossetti on the show today.
She has done major research. She works

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with both major companies as well as
individuals to help them understand how to look

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at that rather rather than a change, that it's a perception of the transition

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that is going to be even better
in our lives. So I hope you'll

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join us today. I think you're
going to find it extremely interesting and fascinating.

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At the end of the day,
it's not about what you have or

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even what you've accomplished. It's about
what you've done with those accomplishments. It's

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about who you've lifted up, who
you've made better. It's about what you've

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given back. Denzel Washington, Welcome
to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is

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to elevate the lives of others and
to inspire you to do the same.

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Linda, how are you doing?
Welcome to the show. Oh, thank

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you for having me. So nice
to be here. How are you?

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I'm good and I'm just really excited. You know what we're going to talk

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about today. And as I've been
looking over what you know, what you

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do, it's just fascinating to me
because you have such an interesting background and

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all of a sudden, you're doing
this and I know you do this for

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businesses and so forth, but you're
also doing it for personal And that's why

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I really wanted to get you on
the show, because I really want to

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talk about how you were helping people
in their personal lives. But would you

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share with the audience a little bit
about your background and how you came to

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this point in your life. Sure, well, thank you for that opportunity

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to share a little bit. I
know I've always been interested in this concept

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of transformation, right. I've spent
nearly thirty years in the conventional workforce helping

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companies transform. You know. A
good example is I was the head of

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HR and administration for this big global
company, and well, that is maybe

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interesting to some. What was interesting
about my experience there is my job at

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the time was to take what were
two hundred acquisitions and put them together to

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have them behave as one organization.
So it was a massive transformational activity.

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So for the last decade, I've
been fascinated by what happens in similar transformations

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in individual lives, and so I've
done research. I've collaborated with a number

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of universities on research, and I've
written two books all about what happens at

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moments in our lives when our concept
about who we are and how we make

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meaning in our lives shifts. Because
what my research has told me is that

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we actually really misunderstand those moments.
And we can talk more about that,

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but there's really a beautiful opportunity to
think about those moments in new ways and

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to respond differently. And the work
that I do now is I train coaches

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and social workers and all sorts of
people, but also work to educate individuals

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on what's happening at times of great
kind of crossroads in our lives and to

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empower them to respond differently, because
my research has proven that those who do

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respond differently at those times have the
opportunity to have a pos it an inflection

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point in their lives, regardless of
what's in there to that moment. So

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it's really that's me, doctor Doug. I hope that. Well, that's

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I smiled when I looked at some
of your bio. You've got an MBA

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from Harvard, Yes I do.
I don't think my older brother was there

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at the time, but he also
got his MBA there and just experienced experience

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experience, which is just phenomenal.
You know. It's interesting. I was

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watching a TV show this morning and
it was about the Amish community and how

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this was a true story apparently where
years ago someone went in and shot up

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at school and killed a number of
children, and it talked about how the

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Amish people responded to that in such
a forgiving and kind way. And it

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kind of triggered me because as I
here, I live in Utah, Okay,

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and there's a lot of things going
on here and in it's interesting if

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I'm getting onto social media somewhere,
all of a sudden, there's a huge,

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huge group that have left their faith, and it's interesting to hear them

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just complain and keep bringing up all
these reasons and on and on and on.

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And as I was, you know, anticipating this conversation today, I

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thought, you know, how interesting
that some people will have these things occur

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and change in their life and they
handle it in such a warm, loving,

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kind way. And there are others
that get so resentful and the bitter.

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And I think what we see here
now in our country is a lot

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of that going on. Whereas changes
occurring, we're seeing a lot of anger,

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a lot of bitterness and so forth. And so I'm fascinated. Now

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your book is called Dancing with Disruption, right, okay, and certainly we

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are experiencing disruption. So I am
really curious. Let's talk about that a

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little bit, and how do you
look at it and how do we help

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people that are experiencing change in their
life, which all of us are.

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There's none of us will ever go
through life without having a number of changes.

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And the response that we give to
those changes either affects us in a

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very positive, happy way or it
can be very destructive. So I'm really

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curious about the book and what's it
about, and so on and so forth.

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Yes, and so that's really a
lovely set up to the conversation to

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say, to observe that there are
those that respond with great kindness and compassion

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and others who are resentful to moments
of change. And I want to talk

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about three different terms, maybe as
a start to this conversation, Right.

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The first is disruption, because,
as you mentioned, it's everywhere, right,

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we almost can't go through a day
without encountering some kind of disruption.

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And the ones that I'm most interested
in the work that I do are disruptions

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that really go beyond the inevitable hiccups
in our day. Right. You know,

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we're on our way to the grocery
store to the office and there's a

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traffic jam, and you know,
for whatever reason, our schedule gets thrown

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up in the air. Right,
Those disruptions occur all the time, but

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those aren't really the ones that pique
my interests. The ones that I invite

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all of us to talk about in
the next few minutes are what I call

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gateway disruptions, and those are the
ones that challenge are thinking about who we

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are right our self concept and oftentimes
we experience that in a number of ways,

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like oftentimes we'll get some kind of
recognition that our normal level of functioning

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has somehow gone out the window.
Right. You know, We're used to,

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you know, doing all sorts of
things in a day, but all

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of a sudden, we can't seem
to get through the day, or our

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ability to do things that we've always
done seems to be completely corrupted. It's

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like what's happening? And another way
we get we often get to it is

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when we when we really struggle and
say, well, wait a minute,

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we have some kind of realization like
wait a minute, this isn't who I

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am, this is an how I
behave right, you know. So these

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gayway disruptions are ones that really challenge
are thinking about who we are or how

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we make meaning in the world.
And they can they can come at us

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from all sorts of ways, right. They can be planful things like a

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retirement or a marriage or the welcoming
of another child, or they can be

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unexpected things like you know, all
of a sudden a health crisis or um,

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you know, a job loss or
a big mergert at a company that

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you know, changes our entire outlook
of what our employment might be like.

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So there's all sorts of initiating circumstances
that can kind of deposited at these moments

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of disruption. But the ones that
I think are so interesting and help us

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really understand kind of this change that
you reference in a different way is are

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these are these um these ones that
are kind of very meaningful in terms of

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their impact on who we are and
how we our mental model that we use

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to kind of think about ourselves in
the world we inhabit well. And I

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think, you know, I think
about COVID and you know, the pandemic

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and literally when that occurred, it's
interesting to see, at least as I've

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observed it, how the overall culture
of our community in the US changed,

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and probably all over the world.
I'm just aware here, but it's fascinating

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that there was that major change and
disruption in all of our lives to where

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we had to be at home and
you know, on and on and on

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and on, and it appears,
I don't know what your observation has been

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that it appears to me like that
has created a storm of challenges that we

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never really had experienced before. It's
interesting, I agree with you. And

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the thing that I find most interesting
is it's I look at it. While

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it was massive and it was meaningful
for so many of us, I don't

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think anyone escaped the impact of it. Obviously, it hurts some pretty significantly.

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They lost loved ones there there,
you know, their ability to earn

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income was disrupted all that, But
it has started a cascade of other right,

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we mark that point as a cascade
of so many others. You know,

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now we have technology like AI that's
that's undoing our workplaces or changing how

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we think about careers or employment.
We have you know, our longevity is

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changing, so the profile of how
long we work. Like, there's so

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many societal, environmental, so many
things happening. So the rate of disruption

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seems to be accelerating, doctor doug
And and I think that that's what brings

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me to this this topic so so
passionately, like we really need to educate

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each other on how to navigate these
times, because it isn't the exception anymore,

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right, it is it is the
common experience that we will go through

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multiple disruptions in our lives. And
too often, what I observed in my

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research is without education on what's happening, too often people stall, disengage,

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or retreat at these moments instead of
kind of taking advantage of some beautiful opportunities

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that are kind of in the mist
when these things occur. Yes, and

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oh my goodness, you know one
of some interesting interviews that I've done that

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have just created such curiosity with me
as this concept of perception, and you

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know, I've got a couple of
brothers that are attorneys, and as interesting

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as we've talked and what happens to
be a personal entry attorney and talking about

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how when an accident occurs, say
in an intersection, and you may have

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four to five witnesses, every one
of them has a different story and why.

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And of course it's kind of boiling
down now to perception of what we

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whatever we observe, we create a
perception for ourselves based on all sorts of

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beliefs and everything else that has gone
on. Do you find that that's part

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of the challenge is that the perception
of what's occurring is literally creating the lives

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that we're experiencing. It's such an
interesting conversation you bring up, you know,

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because yes, every time we respond, we're responding with the sum total

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of our experience, right, the
beliefs we have, and every experience you

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know, it can be from where
you were in grammar school, or where

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you lived when you were eighteen,
or your early career, can be anything.

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But every time we respond to something, how we see is influenced by

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the sum total of that experience,
right. So it's really fascinating. And

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what I found in my work is
that there are two terms that we interchange

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in this notion of perception that actually
mean very different things when we go through

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these periods of disruption. And those
two words are change and transition. And

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it might be important to think about
those now because I think it might add

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something to the conversation. If you're
okay, I'll talk a little old please,

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Absolutely, I think about be a
good foundation. So it's interesting,

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you know, Um, we we
think about change in our societies, you

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know, this heavy, hard thing, you know, gut wrenching, Oh

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my goodness, change. Um,
but it's interesting that when we are in

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the face of a disruption, changes
are all about making alterations or variations on

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a fixed self concept or a fixed
like mental model. Right, So that

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we we are we are pursuing kind
of a known outcome. We can articulate

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what we want, and we're making
alterations or variations, but our self concept

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is intact. So let's just say, you know, easy conversation will say,

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oh, perhaps I was a UM
an employee at Bank of America UM

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and you know, for whatever reason, my I got I lost my job

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and I'm going to go get a
you know, a new job at TD

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Bank or or you know um uh, you know Santander or some of the

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other ones you know. UM.
Ultimately, at those moments, we're making

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changes that are alterations or variations.
But how we think about ourselves is intact.

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It's static, And that's very different
from a transition, right because in

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transition we welcome instability for a time
about how we think about ourselves. Right,

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Because what's happening in transitions is there's
typically a shift in what holds value

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and meaning to us, and as
a result, we're re examining the assumptions

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upon which we anchor our self concept. Right, So when we respond with

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change, we're really reinforcing kind of
a static mental model. But when we

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explore transition, we're willing to kind
of re examine, not necessarily kind of

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throw out our early thinking and replace
with new, but we're we're willing to

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think around things aren't static and fixed. We're willing to kind of be open

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minded and go beyond just alterations or
variations on something known and welcome new and

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potentially even let go of some of
the assumptions we might have held that we

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might have now realized are beyond their
useful life. And so this notion of

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these two differences is pretty compelling when
we think about how we respond to the

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current moment. Because there are those
who are very fixed and say, oh

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my goodness, there's absolutely no way
to think differently about this, and they're

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making variations but no movement. And
there are others who say, you know,

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well, well maybe it's time to
rethink. You know, I don't

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know whether we should drive, you
know, combustion engine cars, okay,

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And we're willing to kind of think
about what that means. And that's when

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we when we look at transitions.
And so transitions are all about these opportunities

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to re examine what holds value and
meaning to us. And and usually what

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that means is that is a gateway
for a very transformative growth cycle. And

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that's the thing that fascinates me so
much about this work, doctor Doug,

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because you know, as I look
at this this the major changes that are

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going on around us, right,
You've mentioned so many of them, you

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know, the post pandemic, you
know, the economic changes, the technology

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changes. There are some of us
who will come to those moments and say,

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nope, change, there's really nothing. You know, I'll make some

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alterations, variations, but everything's pretty
fixed. And there are others who will

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respond and say, you know what, maybe this is a good time to

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re examine some of our assumptions.
And and what's interesting is that those who

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do typically begin a pretty expansive path
of turning up the volume on their own

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voices and m and that has incredible, incredible outcomes. So let me start

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there. And it's really interesting,
you know, as you talk about it,

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I think about this concept of change. So many people resist change,

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and as you say, it really
goes to this concept that we need to

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be right. You know, everyone, everyone needs to be right, and

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all of a sudden, if changes
occurring, but you know what, we're

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not going to allow ourselves to change. But as we see that, as

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we resist change, what I see
happening, and I really love getting into

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the whole level of emotional scale and
so on and so forth, what I

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see happening is all of a sudden, when we're resisting change, all of

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a sudden, the resentment comes in, the anger comes in, all of

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those types of things come in.
Whereas if we're I remember, I think

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Buddha, whether I love all various
religions, but I think Buddha was the

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one that said that as we experience, as we look at something in our

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lives that we think was suffering or
something very not pleasant, we can either

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look at that in a negative way, or we can be grateful for whatever

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lessons and look for the lessons that
we can learn from that. And in

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some ways, that's exactly what I
think you're saying, is we can either

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resist change or we can create that
curiosity within us to say, Okay,

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this transitioning is occurring, let me
apply some curiosity to it, let me

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apply some gratitude to it, and
let me see what can I learn what

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new adventure again? As I went
to school. One of the things that

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when I was back at business school, one of the things that was said

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was, you know, as we
as we played different games in our lives,

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and so you know, obviously you
played a big game corporately. Now

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you've moved into a new game.
And I think that all of us,

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once we reach a certain point,
realized that you know, alright, I've

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achieved whatever that was, It's time
to move on to a new game.

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And that can be very difficult for
people. Well, you know, it

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really can. And I've learned so
much from doing the research. You know,

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I sat down with hundreds of people
and just listened about their stories of

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how they make these shifts that you're
describing. And a couple of things I

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took away from the one is our
assumption about um age is um is open

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for debate because you can be twenty
two or seventy two and choose transition or

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you can never choose it, right, you know, it really is.

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It is really fascinating that, you
know, um, I'm grateful that I

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found this practice, but it was
it was by chance, and and like

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you said, it was because I
was curious, like I couldn't reconcile the

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answers I was getting from other people. I'm like, wait a minute,

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this makes no sense, and and
and so there is this curiosity. But

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it can happen at any time in
our lives. And and you know,

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some of us are are um.
You know, the circumstances of our lives

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bring us to these moments of disruption
early. Right, Sometimes we're twenty two

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or you know, thirty two,
and we get to these places where we're

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asked to make a choice. And
and others go through life and you know,

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there's sixty seven before they're being asked
to make it right. So I

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just want to honor the fact that
some of your listeners may be at different

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life stages and find themselves at this
moment. And then the other thing I'll

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say is what I found stunning when
I did the research is that when we're

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willing to open ourselves up to the
possibility that our self concept is growing,

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right, that it's not fixed.
In fact, it's growing, our emotions

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mobilize to keep us safe. Right, Our emotions fire to say, oh

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my goodness, Linda, I'm going
to staple your feet to the floor because

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they read movement in our self concept
as unsafe and so all of a sudden,

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we need new techniques to try to
diffuse the power of an emotion over

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us so that we can continue to
apply our curiosity to what this all might

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mean. And a good part about
the book that I write wrote has a

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technique that you know, I train
lots of coaches on. I mean,

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that's what my businesses is to train, which is an hr people and social

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workers on how to use these techniques. And it is fascinating because with it

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to your point about learning, I
believe you can change the profile of an

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emotion from being an obstacle to being
an oracle to being a site of learning

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for us that we can use to
really, you know, inspire and support

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our growth. Well, and you
know you talk about those very specific items

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that you talk about. In fact, you've got a reframing technique called hail

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from what I've read, Can you
explain what that is to the audience?

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And then I'd love for you to
share some stories of clients that you've had

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to see the transition that's occurred in
their lives. Sure, absolutely, thank

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you. I'd love to talk about
all of that. But but hal is

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a four step pneumonic meaning. Each
of the letters in the word hail h

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ai l stands for a different activity
we do to reframe emotion. And you

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know, the word reframe is kind
of one of those big words and you

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know overuse probably, So let me
describe what I mean. And it goes

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to your earlier comment of perspective.
Right. It's as if you and I

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stepped outside and I said, okay, doctor Doug, I want you to

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draw this skyscraper that's right in front
of us, and you kind of get

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to work and you do your thing, and then I say, okay,

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now that you're done, come,
come, come, and we go across

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the street and we ride up in
the elevator to an adjacent building. We

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go to the roof, and on
the roof, I say, okay,

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doctor Doug, now I want you
to draw that same skyscraper, right,

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but you have an entirely different perspective
on that skyscraper. Right. So it's

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fixed. Right, It's an item
that's fixed, but our ability to look

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at it to see it changes radically. And that's what this technique hail helps

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us do. It helps us walk
through an emotion, so that emotion like

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anxiety or regret or anger or fear
or self doubt or perfectionism, that we

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can take that emotion and diffuse its
our over us so that we see it

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from a different angle, and all
of a sudden we're able to ask new

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questions of ourselves. And and that's
really the beauty, right is it allows

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us to kind of break away from
you know, I'm you know, I'm

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I'm I'm racked with anxiety, I'm
frozen to I'm feeling anxious right now and

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I'm thinking I'm going to do something
else tomorrow right that, you know,

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it frees us up, and it's
um, you know, it's it's been

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an absolute, you know, game
changer to tease you to people, it's

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really it's really been quite quite extraordinary. Well it's interesting because you know,

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again, as we talked about a
lot of who what we experience has to

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do with our life and our childhood
and all of that. Growing up,

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I've gotten very interested in looking at
personality evaluations, and the one that I

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have adopted that I just love goes
in and not only talks about the personality

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and are the right brain, left
brain introvert, extrovert and all that gets

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into value us and all those types
of things. But one of the things

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that it talks about that was just
fascinating to me was what it is based

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on their personality? What is their
greatest fear? And so interestingly, you

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know, for some it's being criticized. For others, it's losing relationships.

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For others, it's not having friends. For others, it's you know,

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being taking advantage of There are those
things. But as I've looked at that

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and worked with a few people on
that, it's like, I don't believe

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anything is innate. I think some
of that is there, But the reality

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is, once you understand that,
then how do you change that so that

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you're not affected by that innate fear
of whatever it happens to be based on

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your personality? And so as you
talk about Hale, I'm waiting for you

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to explain what those are. Yes, I will and let me and I

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love that. You know, I
agree. There are lots of personality techniques

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out there to assess, but it
sounds like you've found one that really works

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for you. And there are so
many um but Hale stands for h A

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I L. And the first step
is honor. The second is ask.

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The third is influence in the fourth
is learned Right. So we we take

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a moment of upheaval in our lives, We'll say, you know, you

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know, there's one story in the
book that I tell about me, and

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it's this moment where I'm at a
meeting and I'm responsible for a large part

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of the deliverable and there's an antagonistic
peer of mine who's really given me a

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hard time. And so my first
step is honor right, which is to

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say, Okay, what emotions am
I feeling in this moment? Right?

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And and the emotions that I was
feeling that moment was anger, right,

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that I wasn't being I wasn't being
acknowledged. Right. He would name everybody

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else in the room, but he
never said my name once right, always

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like he just completely blew by me. And and and so the first step

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asked access to do something, which
is to actually validate by giving space and

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time to the emotions we feel and
by naming. Just the naming step alone

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can slow down the pattern that the
emotion is, can you know, comfortable

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behaving within our world? Right?
It's really slows that down. So naming

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is important. The second step ask
is really asking us to think about why

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that emotion matters in our experience?
Right, So why would I get angry?

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Right? Why would I get angry
in that moment? And I have

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to say, like, I'm not
someone you know, we've got in a

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little sense for who I am.
I'm not someone who carries anger. Right.

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That is very That's a very unusual
emotion for me. Right, So

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I had to ask repeatedly, you
know, why is it that that one

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is firing for me? And ultimately, in asking I realized that that it

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was all about being seen or being
unseen. Right. This notion of somebody

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looking through me and not recognizing and
I was in the room and that I

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had a contribution to make was a
trigger. Right. It was a trip

357
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wire for me, right, sending
me kind of up and on, you

358
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know, up the wall down the
other side. Like it was really you

359
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know, it was throwing me off
balance so much so that at one point

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during the meeting, I barked at
this guy, you know, I said

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something very curt and everyone looked like, Linda, what's going on? What's

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the matter with you? Right,
Because they didn't see the rest of the

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room. It was invisible to the
room. How grating. This man was

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on me because I was the only
one experiencing this unseen thing. My peers

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that were also at the table had
no idea. Right, But and yet

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I behaved in a way that was
quite unique and based on my experience.

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So the second step is we ask, we ask why it makes sense in

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our experience. The third step is
we recognize how it influences us. Right,

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So the influence for me was pretty
clear. I acted improperly. Right,

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I barked at somebody in a way
that was unprofessional. Right, shouldn't

371
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have done it. Reality is as
I did. But I was able to

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see how it influenced me. And
the last question we ask is what we

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might learn from it? And ultimately
that is an incredibly personal response, right,

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because for me, it underscored how
important it is for me to be

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in a place where, in fact
I am seen, right, where somebody

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acknowledges, you know, not necessarily
they see me like Okay, I'm sitting

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here and I have glasses and I
have you know, white airrings on.

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It is my participation acknowledged in some
way. And I think that that again,

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the technique isn't intended to give us
an answer like oh, my emotion

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of anger is right or wrong.
It has nothing to do with that.

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It invites me to ask a new
set of questions so that I can keep

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going. And ultimately, what it
did in that situation is it invited me

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to participate in a different way.
It wasn't about what Peter, who was

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my peer, what Peter was doing. It was about my voice in my

385
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active participation in that meeting, you
know, so much so that once I

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did Hale, I did it actually
at a break and I tell the story

387
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in the book. Once I went
back into that room, I participated in

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an entirely different way, so much
so that the person who was holding the

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meeting at the end of the day
pulled me aside and said, Wow,

390
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we are so happy you were here. You really made a difference. And

391
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so I say that because it is
so easy for us to be just locked

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in the anger and stay in anger
and not move beyond it. And so

393
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what Hale tries to do is give
a relatively accessible, repeatable technique that you

394
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can use in the moment or in
self reflection on something that happened earlier,

395
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but help you take anger and say, boof, I'm letting go of that,

396
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and it's instructing me not only to
let go, but to act in

397
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a way that is so much aligned
with who I am and the values and

398
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meaning that I want to contribute in
the world. So I love the tool.

399
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It's been tested with loads and loads
of groups. It's incredibly powerful,

400
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and it's something that you know that
I do a lot of work with well.

401
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And as you described that, I
think of, you know, one

402
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of the things I've been looking at
is and I kind of phrase some of

403
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this is be aware, be willing
or courageous, and then be happy.

404
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And really what you're talking about is
this awareness of being able to go,

405
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holy cow, this is the emotion
that I just brought up within myself.

406
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Why and then also understanding that it
has nothing to do you know, his

407
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:41.880
treatment of you really has nothing to
do with you. It has everything to

408
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do with him. And when people
can start to understand that concept of you

409
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know, what if someone is being
unkind, rather than taking that personally that

410
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I'm not good enough or what did
I do and so on and so forth,

411
00:30:56.319 --> 00:31:02.359
and go, oh, I wonder
what they're experiencing that they would behave

412
00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:06.759
that way. And So I love
what you talk about because it's really this

413
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:11.000
concept of becoming aware, which is
not easy for everyone. You know,

414
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:17.039
when when when someone you know has
an event occurred and it stirs up anger,

415
00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:22.279
resentment, or frustration or fear or
whatever that is. I think oftentimes

416
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:30.039
the majority of people are not aware
that this is merely an emotion and that

417
00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:36.559
that event has no emotion attached to
it. It's just that we attach an

418
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:41.119
emotion to whatever event occurred. How
do you help people as you're working with

419
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:45.079
people, how do you help them
to get to the point where they're able

420
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:52.279
to be aware, where they're able
to use that process of hail and actually

421
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:59.319
change their direction based on what has
occurred. So I think there's two There's

422
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:02.200
two things we do right. One
is we educate them right. So we

423
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:07.720
first educate them on some of the
roles that these emotions play, what it

424
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:14.160
means in terms of change and transition, and how we commonly encounter this right,

425
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.599
so that we give them a new
context so that they can place their

426
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:22.119
experience of an emotion in a broader
set of understanding. That's the first thing

427
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:23.799
we do right. Because you know, knowledge is power, right, And

428
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:29.559
I don't mean that like beat your
chest power, right, but understanding really

429
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:34.680
helps us broaden our toolkit of how
we can respond. So the first thing

430
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:37.119
is is to educate and help people
say, wait a minute, there is

431
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:42.759
this way to maybe not just hold
on to that anger, but to maybe

432
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:45.319
be different about it. And the
second is we teach them techniques, like

433
00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:52.480
we teach people how we go through
it repeatedly with people so that they can

434
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:55.079
really understand it in a different way. Like there was this one lady who

435
00:32:55.119 --> 00:33:04.200
recently went through the training who was
a team leader in an organization and that

436
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:07.160
was a new thing for her,
but she also then had to participate in

437
00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:09.880
more senior level staff meetings, and
she came into one of the one of

438
00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:14.759
the events and she said, Oh, my goodness, I regret that I

439
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:16.640
said this, Like I really regret
it. I'm really having a hard time

440
00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:20.000
because I did this and this and
this, and I really regret it.

441
00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:24.440
And it was fascinating to listen because
ultimately where we got her after she went

442
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:30.839
through the technique was not releasing regret, but understanding it in a different way

443
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:35.640
that in fact, it wasn't that
she made some grave error, but that

444
00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:39.440
it was her response to the fact
that she was stepping out. She was

445
00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:45.119
turning up her own voice in a
way that was unfamiliar, and the regret

446
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:46.799
was this response to say, hey, don't you want to come back to

447
00:33:46.839 --> 00:33:51.000
this other side where it's a little
more safe? Do you really want to

448
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:55.839
step over there? And so it
was really very interesting how how tools like

449
00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:01.920
Hale can really broaden our ability to
be successful in whatever context we're in,

450
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:07.880
because it helps us take this experience
of an emotion like regret, regret or

451
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:14.119
anger and experience it in an entirely
different way and in fact use it as

452
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:19.760
a way to move forward in a
way that's so much more aligned with the

453
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:22.840
contribution that we have to add.
And whether that contribution is at kitchen table,

454
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:28.599
a corporate boardroom, in a community
setting, it doesn't matter. It's

455
00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:34.559
the same dynamic that really is open
to people, which is these these periods

456
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:38.920
of disruption in our lives I now
understand as an invitation to turn up the

457
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:43.559
volume on our own voices. And
when I say voice, it's not necessarily

458
00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:46.760
what you hear as I speak.
It's it's really the ability to let others

459
00:34:47.239 --> 00:34:52.519
experience the gifts that we have and
what holds value and meaning to us in

460
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:54.719
a way that we can contribute,
you know, that's in alignment with that,

461
00:34:54.880 --> 00:35:00.239
and that is the opportunity. Well, and one of the things that

462
00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.000
you said that I found fascinating,
and this is where my question is going

463
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:06.320
to go too. You know,
you talked about your experience, You went

464
00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:09.440
outside, you kind of let go
of those emotions and came back in and

465
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:15.199
just changed your approach. All right, it's the letting go. It's the

466
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:20.320
letting go. How do you help
people to let go of those emotions and

467
00:35:20.360 --> 00:35:27.239
those triggers that something happens and they
respond in a negative way and at least

468
00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:30.159
if they are aware enough and following
that hail, they recognize that, Okay,

469
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:36.480
this is an emotion that is controlling
my life, my perception. But

470
00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:38.840
how do you help them to let
it go? You know? I mean,

471
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:43.960
you know there's the NLP, there's
the meditation, there's all of those

472
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:49.000
types of things that everyone talks about. What has been your experience in successfully

473
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:52.639
helping people to let go of those
negative emotions? Well? I wish there

474
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:58.079
was like one quick flash in the
pan, right, But I can tell

475
00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:01.920
you that I have seen repeatedly a
series of exercises which are highlighted in the

476
00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:06.440
book, Right, I assume that
the book is for people who need to

477
00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:09.039
work through this on their own,
and that there may be resources like coaches

478
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:13.599
or advisors and our friends who can
help them. But I give them all

479
00:36:13.639 --> 00:36:17.400
the tools they need. And there
are series of activities from learning about choice

480
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:22.119
and what it means to make a
choice, to re setting expectations that we

481
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:28.119
hold for ourselves, or reimagining our
identity or reconstituting connections. All of those

482
00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:34.880
are exercises that contribute to this ability
to respond differently, and all of those

483
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:39.480
are highlighted in the book. So
when I say exercises, they're really a

484
00:36:39.559 --> 00:36:44.119
series of questions that can be done
in a self reflection way, whether you

485
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:47.199
write it out or you hit audio
record on your phone, however it is.

486
00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:52.280
But they allow people to really explore
the concept of the book in their

487
00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:57.559
own life in this guided way.
And then each of the exercises also feature

488
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:01.679
an example of somebody in the research
who's gone through this exact exercise. So

489
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:06.119
those are in every chapter. And
and you know, I have to say,

490
00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:08.440
like, there was one woman,
and this story might might help us

491
00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:12.880
put a fine point on your question. Right, there was one woman,

492
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:15.800
Lakshmi, and she was a very
dynamic young woman, and she was in

493
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:21.559
her early thirties and she had been
in an MD PhD program at a big

494
00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:25.760
ten university and working, working very
very hard at this notion of trying to

495
00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:30.719
become a researcher in a in a
place that she she had thought for many

496
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:34.079
years was a great place for her. And she came into the interview and

497
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:37.519
she said, you know, I
realized that this isn't who I want to

498
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:40.159
be. And she said it's crushing, because she said, you know,

499
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:44.880
from my whole life, ever since
I was like a young teenager, this

500
00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:47.079
was the path I was on.
And she said, I never even dreamed

501
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:52.599
outside of this, right, So
there's there are some expressions of who we

502
00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:55.760
are thinking about who we are that
you know, our sacrosanct right that that

503
00:37:55.840 --> 00:38:01.039
we we have no experience beyond.
And so for her, you know,

504
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:05.679
this concept, she said, you
know, it's crushing that this was terrifying.

505
00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:09.280
You know that she was incredibly self
aware, I think, frankly in

506
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:13.199
hindsight. She said, you know, I always thought that, you know,

507
00:38:13.880 --> 00:38:16.639
the reason people liked me was because
I was academic and that's what I

508
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:21.199
had to offer. And I didn't
know who I was going to be if

509
00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:23.960
I stepped away from that. And
yet the reason why she was kind of

510
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:30.199
leaning in that direction was because she
had suffered a series of debilitating headaches,

511
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:34.679
like she just it was shutting her
down, and and because she was so

512
00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:37.239
kind of physically and mentally self aware. She said, you know, I

513
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:42.159
kept asking myself, what does my
body know that I don't know yet?

514
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:45.360
Right it's telling me something like there's
something going on. So, you know,

515
00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:49.480
she said, it was such a
period of intense pain, you know,

516
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:52.159
physical pain that that you know,
I really needed techniques. And so

517
00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:58.079
we began this process of looking through
the expectations she carried and the emotions that

518
00:38:58.199 --> 00:39:06.119
fired for her and all too she
began a process that is very It's repeated

519
00:39:06.199 --> 00:39:08.599
everywhere in the research that I've done, which is people don't it's not like

520
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:13.639
one swing of the bat and we
leave the md PhD program in whallah,

521
00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:15.840
We're in a new place where we're
you know, we're in a happy,

522
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:22.719
calm place. It's a series of
small steps that allow us to kind of

523
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:30.920
try and then validate this new sense
of self and ultimately Lakshmi began to get

524
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:37.559
involved in some social services related to
healthcare, but but really in a community

525
00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:40.519
base, not in an academic medical
center. And she said, you know,

526
00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:47.159
I'm so astonished because my peers now
describe me as a good leader and

527
00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:51.840
and funny, she said, you
know, I'm astonished because these were never

528
00:39:51.960 --> 00:39:57.440
things that I thought of from myself. And so she went from a place

529
00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:02.320
of pain and not knowing through a
series of steps that led her to this

530
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:09.559
place of kind of comfort and curiosity
that allowed her to know herself in an

531
00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:15.480
entirely new way. And I think
that, you know, as we turn

532
00:40:16.519 --> 00:40:21.360
with some with some tools, right, tools like you've mentioned some, I've

533
00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:25.760
certainly done research and offer some we
what we offer ourselves is a new way

534
00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:31.360
of understanding ourselves and the world we
inhabit. And that is described by nearly

535
00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:38.320
everyone in my research as enlivening and
hopeful and optimistic and freeing. And so

536
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:44.639
I think that that's something that I'm
forever interested in. That if we can

537
00:40:44.679 --> 00:40:49.239
have people who start with being stalled, disengage or retreating in the face of

538
00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:54.599
disruption and get them to a place
that in fact is enlivening and opening and

539
00:40:54.719 --> 00:40:59.880
expansive, then I'm all in right, So I spend most of my day

540
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:05.480
is treat teaching people about this,
educating them on this landscape, and giving

541
00:41:05.480 --> 00:41:07.880
them the tools to explore it in
their own way. Well, and that's

542
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:10.320
so wonderful. And one of the
things you say, which I find so

543
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:15.199
fascinating is, you know, one
of the things that I've always talked about,

544
00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:19.559
and I've learned this from other people
who have Readen books and so forth,

545
00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:22.920
is look at your life. Is
it what you want? And if

546
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:27.800
it's not what you want, then
we need to go back and look at

547
00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:32.519
what are those belief systems that are
creating the expectations and the perception of our

548
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:38.079
lives that we don't like. And
you know, how do we become aware?

549
00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:42.880
I guess the first step that comes
to my mind is if you're experiencing

550
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:47.440
anxiety, if you're experiencing anger,
if you're experiencing one of those negative lower

551
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:53.599
emotions in your life, wake up
and realize that you know what, this

552
00:41:53.719 --> 00:42:00.000
is not your life. You have
put yourself in a situation where you're experience

553
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:04.360
in life that's not elevating for you. And so if you can be aware

554
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:08.320
now you apply the hail or whatever
it happens to be to really change that

555
00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:13.239
around and to let go of some
of these things, right, And I

556
00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:15.840
don't want to to diminish how terrifying
those moments are, right, I know.

557
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:21.920
I remember I was. I did
this training for nonprofit leaders in Chicago

558
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:24.960
not too long ago, and two
women came up to me right after the

559
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:29.199
end of it was like all day
seminar. They came running up and one

560
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:32.599
lady was in tears and she said
to me, you know, I can

561
00:42:32.679 --> 00:42:37.559
hear my voice, it's screaming at
me, but I'm terrified to move.

562
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:43.760
Right in her mind, the consequences
of action were so scary. It was

563
00:42:43.880 --> 00:42:47.159
if she froze, right. She
she knew it what it was she needed

564
00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:52.960
to do, but to do it
was was beyond compare for her, and

565
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:54.960
the lady that was standing next to
her was being silly. She put her

566
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:58.840
hand above her eyes and she like, you know, started looking like a

567
00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:01.960
seafair looking at it distant land,
and she said, you know, boys,

568
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:06.400
I haven't seen my voice in thirty
years. Right, So I think

569
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:09.880
that we have to honor the fact
that we all arrive at these moments with

570
00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:15.920
a varying level of connectedness to to
who we are, right, you know,

571
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:21.679
we we adopt, you know,
provisional identities, We get used to,

572
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:24.360
you know, behaving in a certain
way, We have expectations from those

573
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:30.840
around us, and all of that
kind of creates this soup that we have

574
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:34.800
to begin by getting getting aware of
what's in the soup. And for some

575
00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:37.440
that's a five minute activities. For
some it's a decade activity. And and

576
00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:44.039
I don't want to diminish how frightening
it can be. So Hail is particularly

577
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:49.199
designed to um, you know,
calm down the terror and allow us to

578
00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:52.719
ask a new question, because ultimately
to get to get some traction here,

579
00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:58.119
we need to really bring new questions
to ourselves. Because you know, the

580
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:00.960
lady that's terrified and froze, and
you know, what is it in her

581
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:06.239
experience that is so scary about acting? Or you know, a lot of

582
00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:09.639
people, particularly people who come to
these moments of disruption, you know,

583
00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:14.840
midlife, late in life, say
you know, I have so many responsibilities.

584
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:17.440
This is delusional. I can do
nothing. And I think it's it's

585
00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:22.400
particularly those people that I want to
educate because actually we have a lot more

586
00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:28.519
degrees of freedom right where we sit
than we realize. Well, and you

587
00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:31.280
know, you say something that I
think is so important for people to understand.

588
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:37.920
You know, I have a daughter
that was going towards her PhD in

589
00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:42.599
sociology, and all of a sudden, as she was working on her master's

590
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:45.719
degree and she was on a real
fast line to get that PhD, but

591
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:51.719
she's calling her means and Dad,
and you know, she's experiencing anxiety.

592
00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:57.000
She's experiencing some of these frustrations.
And it's like, I was so grateful

593
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:00.960
that she could call me and that
I had the ability to, rather than

594
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:06.039
join in her with her anxiety,
say hey, sweetie, let's stop for

595
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:09.679
a minute and let's look at this
now. She finally decided to finish with

596
00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:14.719
her masters and move on to a
job. She's very happy at what she's

597
00:45:14.760 --> 00:45:17.800
doing now, which really has not
a lot to do with her degree,

598
00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:22.480
but in some senses, her degree
trained her to be better at what she's

599
00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:27.320
doing. But a friend, I
remember just the other day, I was

600
00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:29.960
going through some things and I'm thinking, oh, man, how am I

601
00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:31.119
going to do this? And I'm
thinking, you know what, I have

602
00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:36.119
two people I can call. And
I did, and I called and I

603
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:37.800
said, hey, here's what I'm
going through. And they listened and we

604
00:45:37.880 --> 00:45:40.239
talked a little bit in When it
was all said and done, it's like,

605
00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:45.119
I feel so much better. And
I think for the audience it's important

606
00:45:45.159 --> 00:45:50.320
to understand that, you know what, not only can we experience these change

607
00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:54.599
and transitions in our own lives,
but we can be that person to be

608
00:45:54.679 --> 00:46:00.320
able to help someone else who is
experiencing that if we won't into the old

609
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:06.679
adage of anger and frustration and expectation
and rather, you know, what you're

610
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:10.440
talking about is just being aware and
let's talk about that and let's see what's

611
00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:15.480
going on. So I think this
concept of being able to make a difference

612
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:20.440
in someone's life and just a small
way by just being there for people is

613
00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:22.840
so important. Of course you're doing
it at a big level, which is

614
00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:28.239
just amazing. Well, I appreciate
the very kind words, but I think

615
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:34.440
it's you're underscoring a very important part
of being able to successfully navigate periods in

616
00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:39.159
our life where we're undergoing massive shifts, and that is the connections we have

617
00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:45.039
around us, right, and we
can serve as a connection for someone else

618
00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:49.639
and as you say, be supportive. And there's two things I want to

619
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:54.039
just mention under this umbrella of connections. Right. One is very often people

620
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:58.199
have this assumption that if they're going
through a period of transition that they have

621
00:46:58.280 --> 00:47:01.239
to leave things like, oh,
I'm leaving a relationship where I'm leaving a

622
00:47:01.320 --> 00:47:06.840
job, or I'm leaving this and
and in fact, there's nothing that says,

623
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:09.679
nothing in the research says we have
to leave the support systems we already

624
00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:15.719
have. We have to realize is
that very often the people around us have

625
00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:19.920
a vested interest in us staying the
same, right, and so we just

626
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:22.679
need to be aware of that.
We don't We're not going to throw them

627
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:24.039
under the bus. We're not going
to say I can't talk to you anymore.

628
00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:27.159
We're not gonna do any of that. But we just need to bring

629
00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:32.639
our awareness that the response we get
from those around us may be informed by

630
00:47:32.679 --> 00:47:37.760
the fact that their need is significant
for us to stay the same. Number

631
00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:43.199
one and number two, the best
people we can put around us, and

632
00:47:43.559 --> 00:47:46.159
certainly it seems like you can serve
this way for your daughter, is that

633
00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:52.280
the best thing we can do is
ask why not instead of why? Right?

634
00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:52.880
You know, when people come and
say, well, you know,

635
00:47:52.920 --> 00:47:54.920
I think I was going to do
this and this, and you know,

636
00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:58.400
and and stays saying, well,
why would you want to do that?

637
00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:02.639
And our best, best next question
we can ask is well, why wouldn't

638
00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:07.159
you? Why not do that?
Why not? Why not? And I

639
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:10.159
think it's a subtle It's one word. We're asking to a question, and

640
00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:15.360
all of a sudden, if we
say why not, I'm communicating to doctor

641
00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:20.039
Doug that I believe in you right, that you have that possibility within your

642
00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:24.599
reach, and that kind of affirmation
is irreplaceable at times of major shifts.

643
00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:29.000
Absolutely, And I love that.
You know, I've always used you know,

644
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:32.239
it's time for a new adventure,
be courageous, it's time for a

645
00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:36.679
new adventure. But I love that
concept. Why not? And guess what?

646
00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:44.239
We could go on for hours,
but we're done. Oh my goodness,

647
00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:47.559
what a what a pleasure to have
you on the show. This is

648
00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:52.280
just amazing. Well, it's been
my absolute pleasure. Thank you for giving

649
00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:54.599
the opportunity to talk with you and
to talk with your listeners. It's an

650
00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:58.880
absolute delight. And thank you for
your interest in this topic. Oh you.

651
00:48:59.079 --> 00:49:02.320
And how do people find your book? It's called Dancing with Disruption?

652
00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:06.280
How do they find it? Yes? Well I have it right over my

653
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:09.159
shoulder. Right. So it is
Dancing with Disruption, and it's available everywhere

654
00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:14.480
books are sold. It's available in
audiobook, electronic versions, and print copies,

655
00:49:14.679 --> 00:49:19.199
and it's also available through most public
libraries. And if you have questions

656
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:22.960
or things you want to learn more
about, LinkedIn is the best way to

657
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:25.639
find me, or just at my
website, which is Linda Rosetti dot com.

658
00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:29.400
Okay, Linda, thank you so
much for me and on the show,

659
00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:32.639
and folks, thanks for listening.
I hope you gained some insights here

660
00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:37.639
and some valuable diamonds that can make
a difference in your life. Please join

661
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.760
us again and once again, Lenna, have a wonderful week, and thank

662
00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:45.920
you and bless you for what you're
doing for others. Thank you very much.

663
00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:47.920
It's been a great honor to talk
with you. All right, folks,

664
00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:51.599
have a great week and we look
forward to having you join us again soon