Dancing With Disruption

0:00 This program is designed to provide general information with regards to the subject matters covered. This information is given with the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas. You know, so often in our lives, we all experienced some type of disruption, something that says we're going to experience change in our lives, and that can be one of the most difficult and scary things that we can experience. And yet sometimes if we look at it from a different perspective and a different perception, it's a blessing that's going to create a new adventure for us, a new life, a new sense of joy and happiness. I'm really pleased to have Linda Rossetti on the show today. She has done major research. She works with both major companies as well as individuals to help them understand how to look at that rather rather than a change, that it's a perception of the transition that is going to be even better in our lives. So I hope you'll join us today. I think you're going to find it extremely interesting and fascinating.

1:23 At the end of the day, it's not about what you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up, who you've made better. It's about what you've given back. Denzel Washington, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you to do the same. Linda, how are you doing? Welcome to the show. Oh, thank you for having me. So nice to be here. How are you? I'm good and I'm just really excited. You know what we're going to talk about today. And as I've been looking over what you know, what you do, it's just fascinating to me because you have such an interesting background and all of a sudden, you're doing this and I know you do this for businesses and so forth, but you're also doing it for personal And that's why I really wanted to get you on the show, because I really want to talk about how you were helping people in their personal lives. But would you share with the audience a little bit about your background and how you came to this point in your life. Sure, well, thank you for that opportunity to share a little bit. I know I've always been interested in this concept of transformation, right. I've spent nearly thirty years in the conventional workforce helping companies transform. You know. A good example is I was the head of HR and administration for this big global company, and well, that is maybe interesting to some. What was interesting about my experience there is my job at the time was to take what were two hundred acquisitions and put them together to

2:54 have them behave as one organization. So it was a massive transformational activity. So for the last decade, I've been fascinated by what happens in similar transformations in individual lives, and so I've done research. I've collaborated with a number of universities on research, and I've written two books all about what happens at moments in our lives when our concept about who we are and how we make meaning in our lives shifts. Because what my research has told me is that we actually really misunderstand those moments. And we can talk more about that, but there's really a beautiful opportunity to think about those moments in new ways and to respond differently. And the work that I do now is I train coaches and social workers and all sorts of people, but also work to educate individuals on what's happening at times of great kind of crossroads in our lives and to empower them to respond differently, because my research has proven that those who do respond differently at those times have the opportunity to have a pos it an inflection point in their lives, regardless of what's in there to that moment. So it's really that's me, doctor Doug. I hope that. Well, that's I smiled when I looked at some of your bio. You've got an MBA from Harvard, Yes I do. I don't think my older brother was there at the time, but he also got his MBA there and just experienced experience experience, which is just phenomenal. You know. It's interesting. I was

4:25 watching a TV show this morning and it was about the Amish community and how this was a true story apparently where years ago someone went in and shot up at school and killed a number of children, and it talked about how the Amish people responded to that in such a forgiving and kind way. And it kind of triggered me because as I here, I live in Utah, Okay, and there's a lot of things going on here and in it's interesting if I'm getting onto social media somewhere, all of a sudden, there's a huge, huge group that have left their faith, and it's interesting to hear them just complain and keep bringing up all these reasons and on and on and on.

5:10 And as I was, you know, anticipating this conversation today, I thought, you know, how interesting that some people will have these things occur and change in their life and they handle it in such a warm, loving, kind way. And there are others that get so resentful and the bitter. And I think what we see here now in our country is a lot of that going on. Whereas changes occurring, we're seeing a lot of anger, a lot of bitterness and so forth. And so I'm fascinated. Now your book is called Dancing with Disruption, right, okay, and certainly we are experiencing disruption. So I am really curious. Let's talk about that a little bit, and how do you look at it and how do we help people that are experiencing change in their life, which all of us are.

6:05 There's none of us will ever go through life without having a number of changes. And the response that we give to those changes either affects us in a very positive, happy way or it can be very destructive. So I'm really curious about the book and what's it about, and so on and so forth. Yes, and so that's really a lovely set up to the conversation to say, to observe that there are those that respond with great kindness and compassion and others who are resentful to moments of change. And I want to talk about three different terms, maybe as a start to this conversation, Right. The first is disruption, because, as you mentioned, it's everywhere, right, we almost can't go through a day without encountering some kind of disruption.

6:51 And the ones that I'm most interested in the work that I do are disruptions that really go beyond the inevitable hiccups in our day. Right. You know, we're on our way to the grocery store to the office and there's a traffic jam, and you know, for whatever reason, our schedule gets thrown up in the air. Right, Those disruptions occur all the time, but those aren't really the ones that pique my interests. The ones that I invite all of us to talk about in the next few minutes are what I call gateway disruptions, and those are the ones that challenge are thinking about who we are right our self concept and oftentimes we experience that in a number of ways, like oftentimes we'll get some kind of recognition that our normal level of functioning has somehow gone out the window. Right. You know, We're used to, you know, doing all sorts of things in a day, but all of a sudden, we can't seem to get through the day, or our ability to do things that we've always done seems to be completely corrupted. It's like what's happening? And another way we get we often get to it is when we when we really struggle and say, well, wait a minute, we have some kind of realization like wait a minute, this isn't who I am, this is an how I behave right, you know. So these gayway disruptions are ones that really challenge are thinking about who we are or how we make meaning in the world. And they can they can come at us from all sorts of ways, right. They can be planful things like a retirement or a marriage or the welcoming of another child, or they can be unexpected things like you know, all of a sudden a health crisis or um,

8:22 you know, a job loss or a big mergert at a company that you know, changes our entire outlook of what our employment might be like. So there's all sorts of initiating circumstances that can kind of deposited at these moments of disruption. But the ones that I think are so interesting and help us really understand kind of this change that you reference in a different way is are these are these um these ones that are kind of very meaningful in terms of their impact on who we are and how we our mental model that we use to kind of think about ourselves in the world we inhabit well. And I think, you know, I think about COVID and you know, the pandemic and literally when that occurred, it's interesting to see, at least as I've observed it, how the overall culture of our community in the US changed, and probably all over the world. I'm just aware here, but it's fascinating that there was that major change and disruption in all of our lives to where we had to be at home and you know, on and on and on and on, and it appears, I don't know what your observation has been that it appears to me like that has created a storm of challenges that we never really had experienced before. It's interesting, I agree with you. And the thing that I find most interesting is it's I look at it. While it was massive and it was meaningful for so many of us, I don't

9:54 think anyone escaped the impact of it. Obviously, it hurts some pretty significantly. They lost loved ones there there, you know, their ability to earn income was disrupted all that, But it has started a cascade of other right, we mark that point as a cascade of so many others. You know, now we have technology like AI that's that's undoing our workplaces or changing how we think about careers or employment. We have you know, our longevity is changing, so the profile of how long we work. Like, there's so many societal, environmental, so many things happening. So the rate of disruption seems to be accelerating, doctor doug And and I think that that's what brings me to this this topic so so passionately, like we really need to educate each other on how to navigate these times, because it isn't the exception anymore, right, it is it is the common experience that we will go through multiple disruptions in our lives. And too often, what I observed in my research is without education on what's happening, too often people stall, disengage, or retreat at these moments instead of kind of taking advantage of some beautiful opportunities that are kind of in the mist when these things occur. Yes, and oh my goodness, you know one of some interesting interviews that I've done that have just created such curiosity with me as this concept of perception, and you know, I've got a couple of brothers that are attorneys, and as interesting

11:28 as we've talked and what happens to be a personal entry attorney and talking about how when an accident occurs, say in an intersection, and you may have four to five witnesses, every one of them has a different story and why. And of course it's kind of boiling down now to perception of what we whatever we observe, we create a perception for ourselves based on all sorts of beliefs and everything else that has gone on. Do you find that that's part of the challenge is that the perception of what's occurring is literally creating the lives that we're experiencing. It's such an interesting conversation you bring up, you know, because yes, every time we respond, we're responding with the sum total of our experience, right, the beliefs we have, and every experience you know, it can be from where you were in grammar school, or where you lived when you were eighteen, or your early career, can be anything.

12:26 But every time we respond to something, how we see is influenced by the sum total of that experience, right. So it's really fascinating. And what I found in my work is that there are two terms that we interchange in this notion of perception that actually mean very different things when we go through these periods of disruption. And those two words are change and transition. And it might be important to think about those now because I think it might add something to the conversation. If you're okay, I'll talk a little old please, Absolutely, I think about be a good foundation. So it's interesting, you know, Um, we we think about change in our societies, you know, this heavy, hard thing, you know, gut wrenching, Oh my goodness, change. Um, but it's interesting that when we are in the face of a disruption, changes are all about making alterations or variations on a fixed self concept or a fixed like mental model. Right, So that we we are we are pursuing kind of a known outcome. We can articulate what we want, and we're making alterations or variations, but our self concept is intact. So let's just say, you know, easy conversation will say, oh, perhaps I was a UM an employee at Bank of America UM and you know, for whatever reason, my I got I lost my job and I'm going to go get a you know, a new job at TD Bank or or you know um uh, you know Santander or some of the other ones you know. UM. Ultimately, at those moments, we're making

13:58 changes that are alterations or variations. But how we think about ourselves is intact. It's static, And that's very different from a transition, right because in transition we welcome instability for a time about how we think about ourselves. Right, Because what's happening in transitions is there's typically a shift in what holds value and meaning to us, and as a result, we're re examining the assumptions upon which we anchor our self concept. Right, So when we respond with change, we're really reinforcing kind of a static mental model. But when we explore transition, we're willing to kind of re examine, not necessarily kind of throw out our early thinking and replace with new, but we're we're willing to think around things aren't static and fixed. We're willing to kind of be open minded and go beyond just alterations or variations on something known and welcome new and potentially even let go of some of the assumptions we might have held that we might have now realized are beyond their useful life. And so this notion of these two differences is pretty compelling when we think about how we respond to the current moment. Because there are those who are very fixed and say, oh my goodness, there's absolutely no way to think differently about this, and they're making variations but no movement. And there are others who say, you know, well, well maybe it's time to rethink. You know, I don't

15:28 know whether we should drive, you know, combustion engine cars, okay, And we're willing to kind of think about what that means. And that's when we when we look at transitions. And so transitions are all about these opportunities to re examine what holds value and meaning to us. And and usually what that means is that is a gateway for a very transformative growth cycle. And that's the thing that fascinates me so much about this work, doctor Doug, because you know, as I look at this this the major changes that are going on around us, right, You've mentioned so many of them, you know, the post pandemic, you know, the economic changes, the technology changes. There are some of us who will come to those moments and say, nope, change, there's really nothing. You know, I'll make some alterations, variations, but everything's pretty fixed. And there are others who will respond and say, you know what, maybe this is a good time to re examine some of our assumptions. And and what's interesting is that those who do typically begin a pretty expansive path of turning up the volume on their own voices and m and that has incredible, incredible outcomes. So let me start there. And it's really interesting, you know, as you talk about it, I think about this concept of change. So many people resist change, and as you say, it really goes to this concept that we need to be right. You know, everyone, everyone needs to be right, and

17:00 all of a sudden, if changes occurring, but you know what, we're not going to allow ourselves to change. But as we see that, as we resist change, what I see happening, and I really love getting into the whole level of emotional scale and so on and so forth, what I see happening is all of a sudden, when we're resisting change, all of a sudden, the resentment comes in, the anger comes in, all of those types of things come in. Whereas if we're I remember, I think Buddha, whether I love all various religions, but I think Buddha was the one that said that as we experience, as we look at something in our lives that we think was suffering or something very not pleasant, we can either look at that in a negative way, or we can be grateful for whatever lessons and look for the lessons that we can learn from that. And in some ways, that's exactly what I think you're saying, is we can either resist change or we can create that curiosity within us to say, Okay, this transitioning is occurring, let me apply some curiosity to it, let me apply some gratitude to it, and let me see what can I learn what new adventure again? As I went to school. One of the things that when I was back at business school, one of the things that was said was, you know, as we as we played different games in our lives, and so you know, obviously you played a big game corporately. Now

18:33 you've moved into a new game. And I think that all of us, once we reach a certain point, realized that you know, alright, I've achieved whatever that was, It's time to move on to a new game. And that can be very difficult for people. Well, you know, it really can. And I've learned so much from doing the research. You know, I sat down with hundreds of people and just listened about their stories of how they make these shifts that you're describing. And a couple of things I took away from the one is our assumption about um age is um is open for debate because you can be twenty two or seventy two and choose transition or you can never choose it, right, you know, it really is.

19:15 It is really fascinating that, you know, um, I'm grateful that I found this practice, but it was it was by chance, and and like you said, it was because I was curious, like I couldn't reconcile the answers I was getting from other people. I'm like, wait a minute, this makes no sense, and and and so there is this curiosity. But it can happen at any time in our lives. And and you know, some of us are are um. You know, the circumstances of our lives bring us to these moments of disruption early. Right, Sometimes we're twenty two or you know, thirty two, and we get to these places where we're asked to make a choice. And and others go through life and you know, there's sixty seven before they're being asked to make it right. So I just want to honor the fact that some of your listeners may be at different life stages and find themselves at this moment. And then the other thing I'll say is what I found stunning when I did the research is that when we're willing to open ourselves up to the possibility that our self concept is growing, right, that it's not fixed. In fact, it's growing, our emotions mobilize to keep us safe. Right, Our emotions fire to say, oh my goodness, Linda, I'm going to staple your feet to the floor because they read movement in our self concept as unsafe and so all of a sudden, we need new techniques to try to diffuse the power of an emotion over

20:45 us so that we can continue to apply our curiosity to what this all might mean. And a good part about the book that I write wrote has a technique that you know, I train lots of coaches on. I mean, that's what my businesses is to train, which is an hr people and social workers on how to use these techniques. And it is fascinating because with it to your point about learning, I believe you can change the profile of an emotion from being an obstacle to being an oracle to being a site of learning for us that we can use to really, you know, inspire and support our growth. Well, and you know you talk about those very specific items that you talk about. In fact, you've got a reframing technique called hail from what I've read, Can you explain what that is to the audience?

21:37 And then I'd love for you to share some stories of clients that you've had to see the transition that's occurred in their lives. Sure, absolutely, thank you. I'd love to talk about all of that. But but hal is a four step pneumonic meaning. Each of the letters in the word hail h ai l stands for a different activity we do to reframe emotion. And you know, the word reframe is kind of one of those big words and you know overuse probably, So let me describe what I mean. And it goes to your earlier comment of perspective. Right. It's as if you and I stepped outside and I said, okay, doctor Doug, I want you to draw this skyscraper that's right in front of us, and you kind of get to work and you do your thing, and then I say, okay, now that you're done, come, come, come, and we go across the street and we ride up in the elevator to an adjacent building. We go to the roof, and on the roof, I say, okay, doctor Doug, now I want you to draw that same skyscraper, right, but you have an entirely different perspective on that skyscraper. Right. So it's fixed. Right, It's an item that's fixed, but our ability to look at it to see it changes radically. And that's what this technique hail helps us do. It helps us walk through an emotion, so that emotion like anxiety or regret or anger or fear or self doubt or perfectionism, that we can take that emotion and diffuse its our over us so that we see it from a different angle, and all of a sudden we're able to ask new questions of ourselves. And and that's really the beauty, right is it allows

23:08 us to kind of break away from you know, I'm you know, I'm I'm I'm racked with anxiety, I'm frozen to I'm feeling anxious right now and I'm thinking I'm going to do something else tomorrow right that, you know, it frees us up, and it's um, you know, it's it's been an absolute, you know, game changer to tease you to people, it's really it's really been quite quite extraordinary. Well it's interesting because you know, again, as we talked about a lot of who what we experience has to do with our life and our childhood and all of that. Growing up, I've gotten very interested in looking at personality evaluations, and the one that I have adopted that I just love goes in and not only talks about the personality and are the right brain, left brain introvert, extrovert and all that gets into value us and all those types of things. But one of the things that it talks about that was just fascinating to me was what it is based on their personality? What is their greatest fear? And so interestingly, you know, for some it's being criticized. For others, it's losing relationships.

24:15 For others, it's not having friends. For others, it's you know, being taking advantage of There are those things. But as I've looked at that and worked with a few people on that, it's like, I don't believe anything is innate. I think some of that is there, But the reality is, once you understand that, then how do you change that so that you're not affected by that innate fear of whatever it happens to be based on your personality? And so as you talk about Hale, I'm waiting for you to explain what those are. Yes, I will and let me and I love that. You know, I agree. There are lots of personality techniques out there to assess, but it sounds like you've found one that really works for you. And there are so many um but Hale stands for h A I L. And the first step is honor. The second is ask.

25:11 The third is influence in the fourth is learned Right. So we we take a moment of upheaval in our lives, We'll say, you know, you know, there's one story in the book that I tell about me, and it's this moment where I'm at a meeting and I'm responsible for a large part of the deliverable and there's an antagonistic peer of mine who's really given me a hard time. And so my first step is honor right, which is to say, Okay, what emotions am I feeling in this moment? Right? And and the emotions that I was feeling that moment was anger, right, that I wasn't being I wasn't being acknowledged. Right. He would name everybody else in the room, but he never said my name once right, always like he just completely blew by me. And and and so the first step asked access to do something, which is to actually validate by giving space and time to the emotions we feel and by naming. Just the naming step alone can slow down the pattern that the emotion is, can you know, comfortable behaving within our world? Right? It's really slows that down. So naming is important. The second step ask is really asking us to think about why that emotion matters in our experience? Right, So why would I get angry?

26:30 Right? Why would I get angry in that moment? And I have to say, like, I'm not someone you know, we've got in a little sense for who I am. I'm not someone who carries anger. Right. That is very That's a very unusual emotion for me. Right, So I had to ask repeatedly, you know, why is it that that one is firing for me? And ultimately, in asking I realized that that it was all about being seen or being unseen. Right. This notion of somebody looking through me and not recognizing and I was in the room and that I had a contribution to make was a trigger. Right. It was a trip wire for me, right, sending me kind of up and on, you know, up the wall down the other side. Like it was really you know, it was throwing me off balance so much so that at one point during the meeting, I barked at this guy, you know, I said something very curt and everyone looked like, Linda, what's going on? What's the matter with you? Right, Because they didn't see the rest of the room. It was invisible to the room. How grating. This man was on me because I was the only one experiencing this unseen thing. My peers that were also at the table had no idea. Right, But and yet I behaved in a way that was quite unique and based on my experience.

27:41 So the second step is we ask, we ask why it makes sense in our experience. The third step is we recognize how it influences us. Right, So the influence for me was pretty clear. I acted improperly. Right, I barked at somebody in a way that was unprofessional. Right, shouldn't have done it. Reality is as I did. But I was able to see how it influenced me. And the last question we ask is what we might learn from it? And ultimately that is an incredibly personal response, right, because for me, it underscored how important it is for me to be in a place where, in fact I am seen, right, where somebody acknowledges, you know, not necessarily they see me like Okay, I'm sitting here and I have glasses and I have you know, white airrings on.

28:29 It is my participation acknowledged in some way. And I think that that again, the technique isn't intended to give us an answer like oh, my emotion of anger is right or wrong. It has nothing to do with that. It invites me to ask a new set of questions so that I can keep going. And ultimately, what it did in that situation is it invited me to participate in a different way. It wasn't about what Peter, who was my peer, what Peter was doing. It was about my voice in my active participation in that meeting, you know, so much so that once I did Hale, I did it actually at a break and I tell the story in the book. Once I went back into that room, I participated in an entirely different way, so much so that the person who was holding the meeting at the end of the day pulled me aside and said, Wow, we are so happy you were here. You really made a difference. And so I say that because it is so easy for us to be just locked in the anger and stay in anger and not move beyond it. And so what Hale tries to do is give a relatively accessible, repeatable technique that you can use in the moment or in self reflection on something that happened earlier, but help you take anger and say, boof, I'm letting go of that, and it's instructing me not only to let go, but to act in a way that is so much aligned with who I am and the values and meaning that I want to contribute in the world. So I love the tool.

29:56 It's been tested with loads and loads of groups. It's incredibly powerful, and it's something that you know that I do a lot of work with well. And as you described that, I think of, you know, one of the things I've been looking at is and I kind of phrase some of this is be aware, be willing or courageous, and then be happy. And really what you're talking about is this awareness of being able to go, holy cow, this is the emotion that I just brought up within myself. Why and then also understanding that it has nothing to do you know, his treatment of you really has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with him. And when people can start to understand that concept of you know, what if someone is being unkind, rather than taking that personally that I'm not good enough or what did I do and so on and so forth, and go, oh, I wonder what they're experiencing that they would behave that way. And So I love what you talk about because it's really this concept of becoming aware, which is not easy for everyone. You know, when when when someone you know has an event occurred and it stirs up anger, resentment, or frustration or fear or whatever that is. I think oftentimes the majority of people are not aware that this is merely an emotion and that

31:30 that event has no emotion attached to it. It's just that we attach an emotion to whatever event occurred. How do you help people as you're working with people, how do you help them to get to the point where they're able to be aware, where they're able to use that process of hail and actually change their direction based on what has occurred. So I think there's two There's two things we do right. One is we educate them right. So we first educate them on some of the roles that these emotions play, what it means in terms of change and transition, and how we commonly encounter this right, so that we give them a new context so that they can place their experience of an emotion in a broader set of understanding. That's the first thing we do right. Because you know, knowledge is power, right, And I don't mean that like beat your chest power, right, but understanding really helps us broaden our toolkit of how we can respond. So the first thing is is to educate and help people say, wait a minute, there is this way to maybe not just hold on to that anger, but to maybe be different about it. And the second is we teach them techniques, like we teach people how we go through it repeatedly with people so that they can really understand it in a different way. Like there was this one lady who recently went through the training who was a team leader in an organization and that

33:04 was a new thing for her, but she also then had to participate in more senior level staff meetings, and she came into one of the one of the events and she said, Oh, my goodness, I regret that I said this, Like I really regret it. I'm really having a hard time because I did this and this and this, and I really regret it. And it was fascinating to listen because ultimately where we got her after she went through the technique was not releasing regret, but understanding it in a different way that in fact, it wasn't that she made some grave error, but that it was her response to the fact that she was stepping out. She was turning up her own voice in a way that was unfamiliar, and the regret was this response to say, hey, don't you want to come back to this other side where it's a little more safe? Do you really want to step over there? And so it was really very interesting how how tools like Hale can really broaden our ability to be successful in whatever context we're in, because it helps us take this experience of an emotion like regret, regret or anger and experience it in an entirely different way and in fact use it as a way to move forward in a way that's so much more aligned with the contribution that we have to add. And whether that contribution is at kitchen table, a corporate boardroom, in a community setting, it doesn't matter. It's the same dynamic that really is open to people, which is these these periods

34:34 of disruption in our lives I now understand as an invitation to turn up the volume on our own voices. And when I say voice, it's not necessarily what you hear as I speak. It's it's really the ability to let others experience the gifts that we have and what holds value and meaning to us in a way that we can contribute, you know, that's in alignment with that, and that is the opportunity. Well, and one of the things that you said that I found fascinating, and this is where my question is going to go too. You know, you talked about your experience, You went outside, you kind of let go of those emotions and came back in and just changed your approach. All right, it's the letting go. It's the letting go. How do you help people to let go of those emotions and those triggers that something happens and they respond in a negative way and at least if they are aware enough and following that hail, they recognize that, Okay, this is an emotion that is controlling my life, my perception. But how do you help them to let it go? You know? I mean, you know there's the NLP, there's the meditation, there's all of those types of things that everyone talks about. What has been your experience in successfully helping people to let go of those negative emotions? Well? I wish there was like one quick flash in the pan, right, But I can tell you that I have seen repeatedly a series of exercises which are highlighted in the book, Right, I assume that the book is for people who need to

36:06 work through this on their own, and that there may be resources like coaches or advisors and our friends who can help them. But I give them all the tools they need. And there are series of activities from learning about choice and what it means to make a choice, to re setting expectations that we hold for ourselves, or reimagining our identity or reconstituting connections. All of those are exercises that contribute to this ability to respond differently, and all of those are highlighted in the book. So when I say exercises, they're really a series of questions that can be done in a self reflection way, whether you write it out or you hit audio record on your phone, however it is.

36:47 But they allow people to really explore the concept of the book in their own life in this guided way. And then each of the exercises also feature an example of somebody in the research who's gone through this exact exercise. So those are in every chapter. And and you know, I have to say, like, there was one woman, and this story might might help us put a fine point on your question. Right, there was one woman, Lakshmi, and she was a very dynamic young woman, and she was in her early thirties and she had been in an MD PhD program at a big ten university and working, working very very hard at this notion of trying to become a researcher in a in a place that she she had thought for many years was a great place for her. And she came into the interview and she said, you know, I realized that this isn't who I want to be. And she said it's crushing, because she said, you know, from my whole life, ever since I was like a young teenager, this was the path I was on. And she said, I never even dreamed outside of this, right, So there's there are some expressions of who we are thinking about who we are that you know, our sacrosanct right that that we we have no experience beyond. And so for her, you know, this concept, she said, you know, it's crushing that this was terrifying.

38:06 You know that she was incredibly self aware, I think, frankly in hindsight. She said, you know, I always thought that, you know, the reason people liked me was because I was academic and that's what I had to offer. And I didn't know who I was going to be if I stepped away from that. And yet the reason why she was kind of leaning in that direction was because she had suffered a series of debilitating headaches, like she just it was shutting her down, and and because she was so kind of physically and mentally self aware. She said, you know, I kept asking myself, what does my body know that I don't know yet? Right it's telling me something like there's something going on. So, you know, she said, it was such a period of intense pain, you know, physical pain that that you know, I really needed techniques. And so we began this process of looking through the expectations she carried and the emotions that fired for her and all too she began a process that is very It's repeated everywhere in the research that I've done, which is people don't it's not like one swing of the bat and we leave the md PhD program in whallah, We're in a new place where we're you know, we're in a happy, calm place. It's a series of small steps that allow us to kind of try and then validate this new sense of self and ultimately Lakshmi began to get involved in some social services related to healthcare, but but really in a community

39:37 base, not in an academic medical center. And she said, you know, I'm so astonished because my peers now describe me as a good leader and and funny, she said, you know, I'm astonished because these were never things that I thought of from myself. And so she went from a place of pain and not knowing through a series of steps that led her to this place of kind of comfort and curiosity that allowed her to know herself in an entirely new way. And I think that, you know, as we turn with some with some tools, right, tools like you've mentioned some, I've certainly done research and offer some we what we offer ourselves is a new way of understanding ourselves and the world we inhabit. And that is described by nearly everyone in my research as enlivening and hopeful and optimistic and freeing. And so I think that that's something that I'm forever interested in. That if we can have people who start with being stalled, disengage or retreating in the face of disruption and get them to a place that in fact is enlivening and opening and expansive, then I'm all in right, So I spend most of my day is treat teaching people about this, educating them on this landscape, and giving them the tools to explore it in their own way. Well, and that's

41:07 so wonderful. And one of the things you say, which I find so fascinating is, you know, one of the things that I've always talked about, and I've learned this from other people who have Readen books and so forth, is look at your life. Is it what you want? And if it's not what you want, then we need to go back and look at what are those belief systems that are creating the expectations and the perception of our lives that we don't like. And you know, how do we become aware? I guess the first step that comes to my mind is if you're experiencing anxiety, if you're experiencing anger, if you're experiencing one of those negative lower emotions in your life, wake up and realize that you know what, this is not your life. You have put yourself in a situation where you're experience in life that's not elevating for you. And so if you can be aware now you apply the hail or whatever it happens to be to really change that around and to let go of some of these things, right, And I don't want to to diminish how terrifying those moments are, right, I know.

42:16 I remember I was. I did this training for nonprofit leaders in Chicago not too long ago, and two women came up to me right after the end of it was like all day seminar. They came running up and one lady was in tears and she said to me, you know, I can hear my voice, it's screaming at me, but I'm terrified to move. Right in her mind, the consequences of action were so scary. It was if she froze, right. She she knew it what it was she needed to do, but to do it was was beyond compare for her, and the lady that was standing next to her was being silly. She put her hand above her eyes and she like, you know, started looking like a seafair looking at it distant land, and she said, you know, boys, I haven't seen my voice in thirty years. Right, So I think that we have to honor the fact that we all arrive at these moments with a varying level of connectedness to to who we are, right, you know, we we adopt, you know, provisional identities, We get used to, you know, behaving in a certain way, We have expectations from those around us, and all of that kind of creates this soup that we have to begin by getting getting aware of what's in the soup. And for some that's a five minute activities. For some it's a decade activity. And and I don't want to diminish how frightening it can be. So Hail is particularly designed to um, you know, calm down the terror and allow us to

43:49 ask a new question, because ultimately to get to get some traction here, we need to really bring new questions to ourselves. Because you know, the lady that's terrified and froze, and you know, what is it in her experience that is so scary about acting? Or you know, a lot of people, particularly people who come to these moments of disruption, you know, midlife, late in life, say you know, I have so many responsibilities. This is delusional. I can do nothing. And I think it's it's particularly those people that I want to educate because actually we have a lot more degrees of freedom right where we sit than we realize. Well, and you know, you say something that I think is so important for people to understand.

44:32 You know, I have a daughter that was going towards her PhD in sociology, and all of a sudden, as she was working on her master's degree and she was on a real fast line to get that PhD, but she's calling her means and Dad, and you know, she's experiencing anxiety. She's experiencing some of these frustrations. And it's like, I was so grateful that she could call me and that I had the ability to, rather than join in her with her anxiety, say hey, sweetie, let's stop for a minute and let's look at this now. She finally decided to finish with her masters and move on to a job. She's very happy at what she's doing now, which really has not a lot to do with her degree, but in some senses, her degree trained her to be better at what she's doing. But a friend, I remember just the other day, I was going through some things and I'm thinking, oh, man, how am I going to do this? And I'm thinking, you know what, I have two people I can call. And I did, and I called and I said, hey, here's what I'm going through. And they listened and we talked a little bit in When it was all said and done, it's like, I feel so much better. And I think for the audience it's important to understand that, you know what, not only can we experience these change and transitions in our own lives, but we can be that person to be able to help someone else who is experiencing that if we won't into the old adage of anger and frustration and expectation and rather, you know, what you're

46:06 talking about is just being aware and let's talk about that and let's see what's going on. So I think this concept of being able to make a difference in someone's life and just a small way by just being there for people is so important. Of course you're doing it at a big level, which is just amazing. Well, I appreciate the very kind words, but I think it's you're underscoring a very important part of being able to successfully navigate periods in our life where we're undergoing massive shifts, and that is the connections we have around us, right, and we can serve as a connection for someone else and as you say, be supportive. And there's two things I want to just mention under this umbrella of connections. Right. One is very often people have this assumption that if they're going through a period of transition that they have to leave things like, oh, I'm leaving a relationship where I'm leaving a job, or I'm leaving this and and in fact, there's nothing that says, nothing in the research says we have to leave the support systems we already have. We have to realize is that very often the people around us have a vested interest in us staying the same, right, and so we just need to be aware of that. We don't We're not going to throw them under the bus. We're not going to say I can't talk to you anymore.

47:24 We're not gonna do any of that. But we just need to bring our awareness that the response we get from those around us may be informed by the fact that their need is significant for us to stay the same. Number one and number two, the best people we can put around us, and certainly it seems like you can serve this way for your daughter, is that the best thing we can do is ask why not instead of why? Right? You know, when people come and say, well, you know, I think I was going to do this and this, and you know, and and stays saying, well, why would you want to do that? And our best, best next question we can ask is well, why wouldn't you? Why not do that? Why not? Why not? And I think it's a subtle It's one word. We're asking to a question, and all of a sudden, if we say why not, I'm communicating to doctor Doug that I believe in you right, that you have that possibility within your reach, and that kind of affirmation is irreplaceable at times of major shifts.

48:24 Absolutely, And I love that. You know, I've always used you know, it's time for a new adventure, be courageous, it's time for a new adventure. But I love that concept. Why not? And guess what? We could go on for hours, but we're done. Oh my goodness, what a what a pleasure to have you on the show. This is just amazing. Well, it's been my absolute pleasure. Thank you for giving the opportunity to talk with you and to talk with your listeners. It's an absolute delight. And thank you for your interest in this topic. Oh you. And how do people find your book? It's called Dancing with Disruption? How do they find it? Yes? Well I have it right over my shoulder. Right. So it is Dancing with Disruption, and it's available everywhere books are sold. It's available in audiobook, electronic versions, and print copies, and it's also available through most public libraries. And if you have questions or things you want to learn more about, LinkedIn is the best way to find me, or just at my website, which is Linda Rosetti dot com.

49:25 Okay, Linda, thank you so much for me and on the show, and folks, thanks for listening. I hope you gained some insights here and some valuable diamonds that can make a difference in your life. Please join us again and once again, Lenna, have a wonderful week, and thank you and bless you for what you're doing for others. Thank you very much. It's been a great honor to talk with you. All right, folks, have a great week and we look forward to having you join us again soon