Bader Field; How My Family Survived Suicide

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This program is designed to provide general
information with regards to the subject matters covered.

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This information is given with the understanding
that neither the hosts, guests,

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sponsors, or station are engaged in
rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,

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legal, counseling, professional service,
or any advice. You should seek

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the services of competent professionals before applying
or trying any suggested ideas. You know,

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one of the biggest challenges that we're
starting to face even more and more

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is suicide, and there are a
lot of organizations out there that are really

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seeking suicide prevention opportunities and so forth. Today, I'm going to have a

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really interesting fellow on this show as
name as Carl David. He experienced suicide

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within his own family, and he's
written a book and he has now become

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a suicide prevention advocate. And the
focus now on suicide needs to be on

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mentioned. But what do families do? How do you handle this if you've

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noticed that there's a child that potentially
is or in many cases you have no

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clue. And so what are some
of the elements and things that we can

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develop within a family that will help
to prevent any potential for those type of

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thoughts or for those type of issues
to occur. So I'm really grateful to

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have Carl David on the show.
He's written a book called bader Field,

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a story of how his family managed
to move forward after his brother took his

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own life. So please join us
for a very sensitive and yet i think,

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very important discussion. At the end
of the day, it's not about

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what you have or even what you've
accomplished. It's about what you've done with

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those accomplishments. It's about who you've
lifted up, who you've made better.

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It's about what you've given back.
Denzel Washington, Welcome to Inspire Vision.

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Our sole purpose is to elevate the
lives of others and inspire you to do

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the same thing. Carl, Welcome
to the show. How are you doing.

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I'm well, Doc, thank you. How are you doing? Hey,

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I'm doing great, and it's so
great to have you on the show

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again. What was it two years
ago, three years ago that you that

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you came on? It was two
or three years ago? Yes, yeah,

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yeah, And you know what,
this topic has become even more more

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important in my mind. What so
let's talk about most recent statistics. Do

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you have any read on the most
recent statistics for suicide and suicide prevention and

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so forth. I do. There's
still a million people a year who take

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their life, and actually whny times
that have attempted and fortunately are not successful.

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So suicide statistics in general change a
little bit. It used to be

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mostly focused on young people and teens
and all, it's the elderly and now

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it's a mixture. The more women
than men from what I have ascertained from

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some of the statistics. But also
there's been an uptick in law enforcement and

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military, both active and veterans,
and that's really upsetting and that's kind of

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where my focus has been lately.
I do a lot with law enforcement on

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federal, state, and local levels, and actually have become Although I'm an

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art dealer by trade, that's my
profession my whole life, I've actually become

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a suicide prevention advocate because I do
shows like this and try and reach out

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and hope that I reach even one
person who decides to save their own life

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instead of taking it. Yes,
And you know, it's interesting, I've

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kind of become an advocate too,
and it kind of just fell into place.

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I've done some studying and I ended
up getting certified as a behavioral analyst,

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and some of the evaluations that I
use that came from the company that

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I work with, really get into
this whole concept of values and how do

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you communicate and on and so forth. But I was reading a study I

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was really fascinated because you know,
so often you listen to these stories of

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children or young adults, of adults
that have committed suicide, and so often

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it's coming from a highly ineffective family, you know, a troubled family type

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of thing. Well, I went
on, I thought, you know what,

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there's so many that are doing this
that are not necessarily from quote,

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troubled families. And there was a
study that was done back east that actually

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studied quote, normal families, and
they found that with their research, two

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of the main areas that were effectively
relating to suicide was lack of proper communication

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number one and number two expectations.
Now, what I realized is that that

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is merely a then slice of the
pie for the causation for suicide. Okay,

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but I found that, Okay,
there's at least one area that can

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be worked on. What have you
found as far as as you've done your

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research and so forth, what are
the elements that are causing this? You

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know, you know, if you're
working with PTSD people who have come back,

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that's one element. I know that
there's an element where if someone has

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experienced a head injury that literally changes
the brain dynamics and that can be one

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causation of suicide. So what are
you finding? Are the number of causations

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that you've looked at and are there
any some that really stick out to you?

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As far as causations there are you
know, you have the standard kind

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of things like depression and drug use
or overuse, overdosing and things like that.

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And again you're right, the family
breakdown has been traditionally one of the

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causes of the kind of loneliness or
depression. There's peer pressure today's world with

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the Internet and bullying, which has
been relentless twenty four to seven has taken

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lives. I mean, it's it's
horrible. But the other thing that's that's

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resulted in greater instance of suicide has
been COVID and lockdowns because it's created a

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greater online presence for this kind of
bullying to take place. But also there's

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been a dissolution of disconnect socially and
that's been really a dire had has had

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a dire effect on socialization with kids. Well, and now that we're out

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of COVID and it's been what two
years since we had three years, I

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don't even remember. Yeah, that
year was a bad one. But are

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you finding now even now that that's
kind of become the foundation of a lack

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of interaction between people and so on
and so forth. Yeah, it's kind

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of had an after effect. I
mean, now things are getting back to

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somewhat normal, but at the same
time, the lack of socialization has stayed

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with some of these kids, and
even with some adults. You know,

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they've they've become loners and they've kind
of they well, I don't need have

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friends or I don't want friends.
You know. It's all sort of changed

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the dynamic of the life we live
in. And it's gotten better a little

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bit. But then again, the
rates of suicide have also gone up.

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They were going down for a couple
of years, and now they're going back

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up again. And I think this
is a real the economic malaise that we've

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got, the overreach of government,
they're all kinds of factors are causing all

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kinds of problems and um, you
know, I just I hope it gets

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better. Well, I do too, you know, I had I've had

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two nephews from different different brothers that
have committed suicide, so I totally get

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it. But you, you literally
have also experienced that. I'd love for

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you to tell the audience your story
because it's it's an amazing story. Oh

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thank you. Well, we grew
up as an all American family, except

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we didn't have a do it.
We had a station wagon and there were

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three visitor brothers, and you know, we had a nice life. We

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weren't rich, but we were rich
together in tone and texture and you know,

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a lot of love in the house
and everything. And when I was

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in high school, I was in
twelfth grade and one night my middle brother,

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our middle brother, my eldest,
and I was a younger, so

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Bruce was my middle next eldest brother
didn't come home one night, and there

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was a real strange feel in the
house. It was very unlike him because

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if he weren't coming home, he
would call and we had no idea what

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was going on. In that morning, when I woke up, I said,

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I don't want to go to school, and my parents said, no,

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you have to go to school.
You know, we don't know what.

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We'll figure this out. And I
kept having this fantasy that maybe he

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was in a car accident, he
was in a hospital. We didn't know.

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I didn't know anything. So I
had driven to school that day I

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was sixteen, and I got to
the auditorium for the morning assembly. The

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principal the school called me up on
the loudspeaker, called me up to the

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podium, and I started to shake. I didn't know what was wrong.

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Something was not right and it was
going to be serious. So he said,

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there's been an emergency. You have
to go home. And thank god

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he didn't tell me what it was. But I jumped in the car and

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was home. It should have taken
me fifteen minutes took me six minutes.

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I jumped out and my eldest brother
opened the door and said, Bruce's dad

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he killed himself. And I almost
fell to the floor. It was like

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nothing I'd ever felt before, I
seen before, and I ran upstairs to

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see my mom, who was just
out of a hospital. My dad wasn't

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there. He went to find my
brother, who actually was at the gallery

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on the fourth floor, and that's
where he took his life. I can't

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even imagine my father's pain because that
was just something that was literally it killed

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him. He only lived for eight
years after that. And we had a

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hard time as a family tried to
deal with this because we were in uncharted

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waders in no way to think of
how we get out of this? What

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do we do? How do we
survive this? Well, we all eventually

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got help with clergy. You know, we're Jewish. My parents went a

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rabbi was a close friend. I
wound up going to a through a series

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of doctor's usiness, to a psychoanalysis, an analyst who literally saved my life.

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It took me four years to unwind
this stuff and figure out how to

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deal with it and teach me how
to cope and Alan, my older brother,

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also had psychological counseling. And because
soon aside the death, it's too

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big to manage by yourself. It's
it's a strange death, it's not normal,

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and you need more than yourself to
get through it, because you know,

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your first first response is shock.
Then there's sadness, then there's anger,

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and then there's guilt, and then
it's like, how do you deal

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with this? What do you do? You know, and people look at

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you. I went back to school
two weeks later or and I got these

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looks. At least I perceived that
I got these looks from kids like,

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Oh, that's the kid who's brother
killed himself. You know. The teachers

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were, they were great, very
kind. So it's it's something you just

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really have to learn and navigate.
And it's different today than it was then.

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This was nineteen sixty five. I
was sixteen, my brother was twenty

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two, Alan was twenty five,
and my parents were fifty and forty seven,

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and it's like, oh my god, you know, I just it's

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just so bizarre and so overwhelming.
So as as that occurred, and and

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we're going to talk a little bit
about those external comments and influences, I'd

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like to talk about that a little
bit because I think that the audience needs

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to be aware that when someone's experienced
that in their life, in their family

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or even a close friend or something, so often comments are made or attitudes

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are developed that are so disparaging and
unkind and certainly not good. But we'll

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talk about that. Did you ever
figure out did your family? Were you

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able to figure out what was going
on with your brother that might have been

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ultimately the causation for him to decide
to take his life. No, no,

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we still live with a question mark
all these years later. I mean,

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my brother an't are the alms left? But there was no note,

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there was no clue, There was
no indication that he was unhappy in any

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way, shape or form. His
unit was supposed to go to Vietnam.

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We thought maybe that was it,
but not really. You know, that's

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not convincing enough for us. So
we have no idea what demons he had

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in his head that he just couldn't
deal with or couldn't come to talk to

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him. Had we known, we
would have intervened. Yeah, and he

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had not been in Vietnam yet,
so he had not he was not a

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return okay, So it definitely wasn't
PTSD at from that perspective, and yet

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you've never been able to figure it
out. No, no clue, wasn't

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drugs or now no drugs. I
mean, this was a This was a

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kid who was happy. He was
a great auto mechanic. He could take

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a car important put it back together
again and would come out right. I

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tried doing that once I started a
fire with a corporator. I'm better now

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than it was then, but now
there was no indication. We just were

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blindsided by this whole thing. You
live with a question mark like what could

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you have seen? What we miss? That is so amazing, isn't it?

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That you just don't even know?
And as you brought up the word

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perception, which I think is so
key and understanding, some of this is

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that we really don't know what an
individual's perception is of their life, of

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what's going on and the communication that's
going on, any of that, and

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yet for them to appear very happy
and so forth, obviously there's and I

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look at this interesting way because you
know, as you get into this emotional

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guidance from a grand Hex or some
of these others, you realize that we

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have two different types of emotions.
We have that inner emotion, that innate

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emotion that not a lot of people
may see, and then we have that

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social emotion that we're happy and we're
you know, we're adventures where we love

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all of this type of thing,
and yet no one is able to see

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that inner, inner, inner emotion
that is creating the issues based on their

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perception of what's going on. I
know I've approached my kids and said,

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hey, so you know, the
expectations that I create a lot of expectations

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on your kids, and they just
smile. I said that, ye had

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no idea. I go, okay, So what were they positive expectations or

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did it get to the point that
they were, you know, not so

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positive and you weren't able to whatever? And you know, they said,

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and they smile, we're in good
shape here. And you know, they

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smile and said that, you know, you were really really good at being

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careful about the expectations. But they
were there, and we felt them so

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in their perception because I was really
working hard to try to avoid that.

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But from their perception, those expectations
were there. The challenge is that when

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those expectations create within us that sense
if I'm not good enough or I'm not

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worthy or whatever that happens to be, that becomes a real challenge. I

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think in Christianity, the guilt,
the you know you're a center, you're

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you know, the guilt that came
all of that can be very contributing to

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that. Obviously, as a Jewish
person, you don't experience that per se,

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at least as far as I understand. Well, no, there's Jewish

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guilt, don't worry, well is
there So it's it's really tough. So

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what what would you what would you
tell parents? I mean here, you

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are a normal family, no expectation
of it. Was there anything different down

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the road that as you as you
reflect back on that, is there anything

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that could have been done that you
feel like might have been a good intervention.

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If we'd seen some sign anything,
if there was any any disturbance emotionally

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that we would have perceived, we
certainly would have jumped in. We were

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a close family at least, you
know, we spoke, we talked about

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things, and um, we didn't
have the opportunity to intervene because whatever he

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held inside, he yelled pretty tightly, and um obviously couldn't deal with it

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whatever it was and couldn't and he
wasn't willing to communicate that with any went

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now now you know unfortunately. So
let's talk about people outside of the immediate

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event that are looking in on a
family that just experienced suicide in their family.

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I know that, you know,
I watched my brothers. I'm not

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familiar with what one experienced so much, but I know that with the other

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one, the external judgment and attitude
and comments that he experienced. We're really

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devastating to him. Yeah, that's
a terrible thing. I mean, for

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when when you hear of someone who's
lost a family member or a close friend

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to suicide, the worst thing you
can do is task judgment. You don't

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have the right to do that.
You have no idea what's going on in

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someone's head, someone's family's, someone's
situation, and you don't have any right

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to do it anyhow. To judge
somebody else, but especially in a situation

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like that, that is just not
just unkind, it's unconscionable. And by

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the way, I'm sorry for your
losses. I just yeah, it's been

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like for you, It's been years
for me too. So yeah, and

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that's a whole other story. But
you know what, you know, people

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talk about closure, there's no such
thing as closure. You only learn to

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live with it as best you can, and that's all you can do.

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It becomes emblematic of who you are
and you carry that with you the rest

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of your life. Now, I've
taken these darkest days and I'm trying to

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do something to benefit other people with
them by doing interviews like this where someone

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hopefully is listening and gets it and
says, Hey, you know what,

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I'm not alone, there is help, I'm loved, and I can't do

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this to my family and my friends. Um So it's it's it's what I

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try to do to make somebody's life
better. And I may never know,

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and I don't need to know,
but we and we really have three audiences

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here. We've got the audience of
people who are making comments or judgment about

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what's going on. And for those
faults, what do you tell them?

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Don't judge anybody. I mean,
this is this is a mental health issue,

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and it's an illness like any other
illness in the body, except it's

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in the brain and whatever's causing it, whether it's chemical or it's peer pressure

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or it's you know, bullying or
feeling inadequate or pts, any of those

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things. And no one's got the
right to criticize or judge somebody else about

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that. You have not walked their
paths or you have no clue what their

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life was like. So just be
kind, be loving, be supportive,

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and quit the attitude and the comments. All right. And then we have

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the families. We have the family
that is experiencing this, and as you

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said, you never get over it. But as we talk about what can

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what are some of the things that
here? You are a normal family.

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I was brought up in quote a
normal family. I don't think there's any

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normal there. But but you know, we all are reasonably normal families,

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and and yet it's still happening.
And any thoughts, you know, prevention

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preventative measures are usually taken when you
observe that a child is experiencing difficulty and

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so forth. But are there some
preventative measures just normal, common everyday things

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that we can do within our family, which we would assume is normal.

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That might be just that one safeguard
against what happened to you and to your

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family. Yes, And I think
that communication is key. I think talking,

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having an open dialogue and referring to
suicide as well, that is never

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the answer. That no matter what
your kids do, they can come to

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you and you'll support them. And
I'm short of happening to come at you

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with guns and knives. I mean, you know, but I mean realistically,

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you know, you don't know what's
going on in a kid's head.

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And when when our kids were old
enough and we didn't know my wife and

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they didn't know exactly when to broach
the subject to let them know about my

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brother when they were maybe twelve eleven, twelve, thirteen years old, and

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we knew that it was a time
that they could comprehend without freaking out.

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We told them about my brother,
and we also told them that no matter

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what happens in your life, no
matter how bad you think it is,

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you can always come to us and
please, do you know there's always an

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answer. There's always I mean,
I'll be the answer you want to hear,

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but there's always an answer, and
it's always better than terminating your life.

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And they, you know, we
did this, told them this as

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insurance in a way that they knew
they could come talk to us no matter

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what it was, and even no
matter how bad it was or whatever they

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would do, that we'd be there
for them. And that this, you

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know, that's important because some kids
take in a way, the easy way

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out and just end it if they're
not much pain. Well, and I

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think you've hit on a good point, and you know, this is something

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that I don't see happening as deeply
as I would like to. But this

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communication, this transparency, the confidence
and the trust to be able to communicate

287
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with your parents or with a family
member or whatever. But that's something literally

288
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that the parents really are the ones
that need to Number one, realize that

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you know what communication is key,
and how do I how do I develop

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an open transparent communication with my children
to the point or with my spouse,

291
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or with my friends whoever, that
they literally are able to be transparent in

292
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their comments and their thoughts and their
failings. It takes a lot of trust

293
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to go to your dad or your
mom and tell you tell them how you're

294
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feeling. If you're not feeling good, yeah, emotional. I remember getting

295
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thrown out of Temple University. This
was after my brother and all that stuff,

296
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and I just died. My mind
was not on scholarly works. I

297
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didn't care, you know, when
I was spiraling out of control. So

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I got the letter in the mail, and I was petrified my father was

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gonna be very angry, judgmental or
whatever, and it was quite the opposite.

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He was there. He supported me. He said, don't worry about

301
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it. We'll get your reinstated,
which he did. He said, then

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we're going to take you out and
you're going to go to a different school

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or smre school where you can really
get a grip and function and be happy.

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So parents, kids are afraid their
parents are going to judge them because

305
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they're they're the parents, that they're
the authoritarians in the family. But you

306
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know, they have to know also
that they're loved and their guidelines, so

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kids can't go and do whatever they
want to do without repercussions. Well,

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and as you say, they're the
parents. But you know what's interesting is

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they are their parents if they were
to open up that communication line number one,

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and you know for them, how
often I mean, I go back

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and I look at the habits that
I've developed. I go back and look

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at different things, medical issues and
so forth. And guess what, I

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can trace it to some degree back
historically to my family through DNA. Right.

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So you know that that's part of
the challenge that we have. We

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have people who have grown up in
dysfunctional families, or we have people who

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have never really learned the art of
communication. I had to go to I

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had to go to school and take
courses in communication to learn how to communicate.

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And and so you know, I
think that what happens is we have

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these families where the lack of awareness
the parents may not even be aware that

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that communication is going on is not
really great. Um, you know,

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child, I want you to do
this, you need to do this,

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you need to do that. Well, guess what that may be creating the

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expectation that's going to cause the issues. It's possible. I mean, there

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have to be boundaries and guidelines.
I think that the kids have. You

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have to train them and teach them
to do for their long term benefit of

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growing up as a as a whole
person in a society, not to step

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on them and and criticize them and
you know, correct them all the time

328
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and tell them no that you're this
isn't a way to do it. You're

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wrong, You're you know, you're
you're you know, stupid or whatever.

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Yeah, you don't do that.
And I think today parents are so busy

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in the business world that they're sometimes
so involved in what they're doing that they

332
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don't always see or communicate with their
kids the way they should. I know,

333
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my wife always tells everybody when I
came home from work, I leave

334
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my briefcase at the door. We'd
sit down and have dinner and everybody would

335
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talk about their day. And that
was really important to both of us.

336
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You know that we were able to
tell the kids what we did, and

337
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we wanted to hear how their school
day was and what they were doing,

338
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and you know, to find out
good beta are different, whatever it was

339
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going on in their in their daily
life. So we always had an open

340
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communication, and you know, I
think that's really important. Well, and

341
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I think the other thing I kind
of laugh about this is my dad was

342
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a university professor, right and boys
classical voice, but he sat down with

343
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each of us and said, you
will be professionals. I mean, that

344
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was it. That was I mean, when I was going to college,

345
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is like, all right, I'm
going to be a doctor. Am I

346
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going to be a lawyer? Am
I going to be a you know,

347
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whatever that happens to me. Those
are the only choices that I had in

348
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my mind, right, and with
each of my brothers and my little sister,

349
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but my brother's same thing, and
they each did. And you know,

350
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I look at that and I think, you know, were those unreasonable

351
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expectations? Probably not? Probably not, because he really helped us to achieve

352
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what we're, you know, what
we wanted to be able to achieve.

353
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But there are expectations that create that
are so high sometimes that they can create

354
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guilt. They can create shame that
I'm not good enough, I'm not meeting

355
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up to the needs or the standards
or whatever that happens to be. How

356
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often do you think parents sit down, and you're one of them that has

357
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but how often do parents sit down
and really discover what are the what are

358
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the purposes of that child, what
are their values, what is it that

359
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they're thinking about? And then do
you support them? I mean, here

360
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here in Utah, it's horrendous.
I know my daughter who's twenty six and

361
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is you know, got a master's
arene and social stuff and research and so

362
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forth. I'm not a social worker, but she tells me that in a

363
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particular area of Utah, most of
the homeless, or at least many of

364
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the homeless or teenagers and then booted
out of their house because they're not abiding

365
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:07.319
by the rules and the expectations of
the house. Oh yeah, yeah,

366
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can you imagine? And yet I
think that goes on a lot where here

367
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all of these expectations that you have
of how someone should be and how they

368
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should act, You have your own
personal values, But how often is a

369
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person able to forego those personal values
and listen to a child or a teenager,

370
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find out what their values are and
then actually as a parent be supportive

371
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of them rather than creating a sense
of guilt and shame because you're not living

372
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up to the standards or the values
that I have. That makes it really

373
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tough. Sure puts a lot of
pressure on a kid. I know Ruth

374
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was. He went to Temple of
University of Night School for a round.

375
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It wasn't for him, and my
dad said fine, because he knew how

376
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good he was with his hands mechanically. He said, build your frame shop

377
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on the fourth floor of the gallery
and you can make the frames and we

378
00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:06.759
finish them, because that was an
integral part of our business, the framing

379
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:11.200
and craftsman. You know, he
wasn't a professional in a sense of a

380
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:15.440
doctor or you know, a scholar
or anything like that, but his forte

381
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:21.160
was mechanical and he would have been
amazing. I mean I used to see

382
00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:23.000
the things that he would do when
he would build, and it was like,

383
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:26.039
Wow, I wish I could do
that. I couldn't, you know,

384
00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:29.440
But so I think you have to. You have to be aware of

385
00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:33.400
your kids strengths and weaknesses and endorse
them for the things that make them happy

386
00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:36.880
and the things that they're good at, you know, and encourage it.

387
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:38.799
It doesn't matter what it is.
Suppose your kid wants to go into military

388
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.920
or be a cop, you know, dangerous as that might be, you

389
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:47.000
have to support them because that's what's
going to make them happy. You know,

390
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:51.119
they have the right to live their
life just like we do. And

391
00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:53.720
that's I think is really tough sometimes
your parents to realize that, you know

392
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:57.519
what, you've got to support your
children and their values and what's important to

393
00:29:57.559 --> 00:30:02.359
them, and and that can be
tough in a certain family. I mean,

394
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:04.359
I'm sure within the Jewish community that's
that's got to be a tough one

395
00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:08.079
because you do as you say.
You have expectations too, don't Yeah,

396
00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:11.279
we're people like everybody else. That
doesn't matter what the what the cloth is

397
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:15.559
um. You know, everybody has
the same issues or it grows up with

398
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:19.559
you know, in families where there
are things that go on. It doesn't

399
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:22.400
matter. You know, you could
be black, white, Queen, yellow,

400
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:27.200
blue, you know, Catholic,
Jewish, Muslim, Protestant, PRESBYTERI.

401
00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:30.480
It doesn't matter. We're all humans, you know, and we're all

402
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:37.400
connected and we all go through similar
paths with variations. But I know that

403
00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:40.640
may sound like crazy, but it's
not. I mean, you know,

404
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:45.279
there's there's a continuum if you will
that. You know, that's a life

405
00:30:45.319 --> 00:30:51.319
cycle. And it's tough when you
have expectations that you know a kid can't

406
00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:53.400
live up to, you know,
help them live up to whatever they want

407
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:57.240
to do well exactly. And that
sounds so you've written the book. Tell

408
00:30:57.319 --> 00:31:02.960
us a little bit about the book
you wrote, about your experience and what

409
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:06.680
has been the outcome of writing that
book for you. Well, it took

410
00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:08.119
a long time to write the book. I knew that I had to write

411
00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:11.519
this book because some day we were
gonna have kids and they would not know

412
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:15.599
my brother or my father. And
initially I wrote the book to memorialize my

413
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:19.119
dad was my hero. But as
I wrote the book, and it took

414
00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:22.240
decades to write it, because i'd
write it for a while, i'd put

415
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:23.960
it down. Was too painful.
And my wife had said to me and

416
00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:26.559
said, I it's too painful,
don't do it. And I said,

417
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:29.440
no, I have to. I
have to do this, and I would

418
00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:32.799
write it and she said, well, you're intellectualizing. Your readers aren't going

419
00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:34.880
to feel any I'm not feeling it, you know again if it's too painful

420
00:31:36.279 --> 00:31:40.559
now, So I started over again. I let the emotions come through,

421
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:44.799
you know. I laughed, I
cried, I felt all the stuff that

422
00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:48.400
I had when I relived all these
experiences. And then it became, ah,

423
00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:51.720
I can see what's going on here. Now, now I'm starting to

424
00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:53.480
feel it. I'm starting to it's
going to be a good book. So

425
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:59.559
it took years, and the focus
then became greater because it was on suicide

426
00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:02.880
prevention and survival, because our story
with my brother taking his life was a

427
00:32:04.759 --> 00:32:07.119
focal point of the book. So
I lost two of my heroes, two

428
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:10.640
of my best friends, and I
wanted to memorialize them. And then I

429
00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:15.839
realized after a while that I needed
to do something by sharing this story that

430
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:19.880
might save somebody else's life, because
people reading it, hearing about it,

431
00:32:20.119 --> 00:32:25.599
might understand the impact of ones taking
their life and the trail of pain and

432
00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:34.000
that destructive after effects that leaves on
people who are close to them. So

433
00:32:34.519 --> 00:32:37.319
I went to look for a publisher
and everybody said, oh, it's too

434
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:39.480
personal, you know it's I kept
thinking, yeah, you ate it.

435
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:42.759
Of course, it's too personal.
That's what it's all about. You missed

436
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:46.880
the whole point. So I finally
found a woman in Wisconsin who was a

437
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:51.759
publisher. She was referred to me
by an entertainment agent in Las Vegas who

438
00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:54.079
I knew, and she got it. She said, yeah, let me

439
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:58.440
read it and i'll call you.
In ten days. I called her and

440
00:32:58.519 --> 00:33:00.240
she said, yes, we want
to publish it. I only want you

441
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:02.559
to do one thing, and I
said, okay, great. What do

442
00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:05.839
we need to do? She said, I want you to rewrite it movie

443
00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:08.160
style. Well I heard movie and
I got excited because ultimately, for this

444
00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:12.039
book, I want to film.
I wanted to be in a visual venue

445
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:16.799
so that people can see it.
And like, I can't remember the name

446
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:20.759
of the movie ordinary people, you
know, And I wanted it to be

447
00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:23.319
because some of my friends had told
me this sounds like ordinary people. So

448
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:25.480
I said, we'll wait a minute. What's movie style? She said,

449
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:29.640
I want you to write it.
I want you to show it, not

450
00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:31.960
tell it. So she's I'll give
you an editor who will show you how

451
00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:35.480
to do what she won't tell you
to show you. And in six weeks

452
00:33:35.559 --> 00:33:38.599
I rewrote it. And what she
really wanted was dialogue so that the characters

453
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:42.880
would come to life, and they
did. And people would read it and

454
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:44.880
say, oh my god, I
feel like I know too much about your

455
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:46.480
family, or I wish I were
a part of your family. You know,

456
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:51.440
they got it. They really felt
the impact of it. So it

457
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:54.000
came out, and I started to
do radio television, in journal interviews,

458
00:33:55.319 --> 00:34:00.359
solicited and some not solicit. Someone
would come to me and I just felt

459
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:02.559
like this was a path that,
you know, I had to take something

460
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:07.759
I really wanted to do. UM
that even if I reached one person,

461
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:09.320
And as I said before, I
may never know, and I don't need

462
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:12.760
to know. I'm just doing what
I know. Is I know what's the

463
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:15.239
right thing to do, because it'll
say it right. Yeah. And the

464
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:20.960
book, what is the name of
the book. It's called Baderfield, How

465
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.800
My Family Survived Suicide. It's on
Amazon. It's all over the place.

466
00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:28.039
If we do a search for Baderfield
by Carl David, it'll show up on

467
00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:34.159
My website was just re launched.
It's Carl dash David dot com and c

468
00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:37.519
A. R. L. Dash
David dot com. And there's all kinds

469
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:42.480
of stuff on there about the book
and why I wrote it, and interviews

470
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:46.559
and podcasts and um that's it's from
aside from making a limit as an art

471
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:51.039
dealer, this is what I'm doing
well. And you know, you you

472
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:53.199
made a comment you were as you
were going through you saying you know and

473
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:59.159
I never know and so and so
forth. Have you actually had any experiences

474
00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:05.199
so far where you are aware of
something that you did that has helped someone

475
00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:09.199
to avoid or move away from that
emotional level of suicide. I've had a

476
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:15.440
couple of emails where people have emailed
me after an interview saying, you know,

477
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:19.719
thank you so much. You have
given me a different perspective and now

478
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:22.880
I'm seriously thinking about living. Um. And you know, when I hear

479
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:27.960
that once or twice, that's that's
the vindication. I mean, that's validation

480
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:30.079
for everything that I'm doing. It
is just that's that's it for me,

481
00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:35.159
just knowing that I helped somebody.
And there are people that I'm connected with

482
00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:38.000
um on LinkedIn who write to me, and you know, one guy was

483
00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:45.920
suicidal and um he was very depressed
and whatever, and I've been going back

484
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:50.800
and forth with him now for better
part of a year, and he thanked

485
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:54.079
me for pulling him out of a
dark space. So yes, and and

486
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:58.840
but your comment, and you know, that is such a blessing for you

487
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:04.639
to have experienced, because so often
we never know. And I think that's

488
00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:12.360
something for the audience to really understand
that that smile, that hug, that

489
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:19.519
a little small act of kindness or
acknowledgement, you never know how that's going

490
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:22.400
to ultimately affect someone, and they
may never tell you. But the reality

491
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:28.239
is is that all of those things
that we can do that are kind,

492
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:35.719
that are loving, can potentially change
someone's life without us ever knowing, moving

493
00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:40.400
them away from suicide into deciding to
really live a full life. It's true.

494
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:44.800
I always tell people when you walk
down the street and you make eye

495
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:47.800
contact with somebody, smile, you
know, because that one smile, as

496
00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:52.400
you just said, may make the
difference in whether someone wants to live or

497
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.559
not because someone someone cared and they
cared enough to anouledge them, and that

498
00:36:55.639 --> 00:37:00.440
that, you know, it gives
them a sense of being, a sense

499
00:37:00.440 --> 00:37:07.679
of warmth and belonging. And I
love well, I am this is such

500
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:15.159
a challenge. And again we're talking
about situations in your situation where completely normal

501
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:20.960
family, totally caught off guard,
never ever anticipated that this is going to

502
00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:28.559
happen. Then there are troubled families, where that becomes an entirely different issue.

503
00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:35.159
Have you found most of your focused
is in normal families or are you

504
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:39.320
finding your focuses and troubled families both
both. I don't think there's much of

505
00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:44.039
a distinction and how you can help
someone, because you don't know if the

506
00:37:44.119 --> 00:37:47.599
family is normal, you perceived to
be normal. Who knows what's behind the

507
00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:53.480
curtain, and then vale can be
very thin or very thick. And I

508
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:58.480
don't make that distinction. I put
it out there for everybody because I can't

509
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:01.159
judge what some family is like,
if they're if they're dysfunctional, they're having

510
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:06.519
problems, there's depression, there's you
know, gang related stuff. Because there's

511
00:38:06.519 --> 00:38:09.880
no family, it kind of doesn't
matter. The principles are the same.

512
00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:15.119
What are you doing specifically, Carl, What are you doing specifically to help

513
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:21.039
these people as you come across them. Well, when I find someone who

514
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:23.360
needs help, I let them know
that they're not alone, that there is

515
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:27.719
help for them. And you know
there's tomorrow and every day you get,

516
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:30.440
you wake up, you get another
chance to do a redo, and that

517
00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:36.800
you need to reach out to people. I always tell people if you're feeling

518
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:39.119
that way, you know, call
somebody, if it's a family member,

519
00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:43.280
if it's someone in the clergy,
if it's a bartender, if it's anybody

520
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:45.639
a friend, Because if your family
won't listen to your reach out, call

521
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:51.039
nine eight eight. That's a souricide
hotline. And it's so important. And

522
00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:53.920
there used to be all these other
hotlines that had long names and numbers.

523
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:57.840
Who remembers them all? But nine
eight eight A is a God said,

524
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:00.679
I mean, it's something that's out
there now, and you know, it's

525
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:05.639
just it's wonderful because it's easy.
There's no judgment you call on. Nobody's

526
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:07.440
going to judge you, will come
after you or you know, come knock

527
00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:10.920
you up or take you to a
mental facility. They don't do that.

528
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:15.639
And that there, if you can
talk someone down for ten minutes off that

529
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:21.559
ledge, sometimes you can actually change
their mind. You know. I've dealt

530
00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:24.360
with some psychologists who have said that
there was an organization called Contact up in

531
00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:29.320
the Philadelphia area. We're in Florida
now, but when we're up there,

532
00:39:29.360 --> 00:39:31.239
I did an interview. I did
a television show with Lynd Doyle called It's

533
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:35.760
Your Call, and there were three
segments, and there was a psychologist who's

534
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:37.920
from contact who said, if you
can talk to someone, get them to

535
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:43.239
talk to you for ten minutes,
you can usually change their mind unless they're

536
00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:46.079
so determined that they're just they're going
to do it anyhow. At that point,

537
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:52.199
you know it's nine one one or
whatever. If you know someone well

538
00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:54.480
and yeah, you've gotten the whole
point there is just to open up that

539
00:39:54.639 --> 00:40:00.920
communication line with them or get them
to get some help. I think that's

540
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:05.800
that's the key. As I've looked
at what I'm seeking to do, Okay,

541
00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:10.320
just with the behavioral aspect of it, what I recognize is, you

542
00:40:10.360 --> 00:40:13.800
know what, there are issues.
As I say, that's just a thin

543
00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:19.880
slives. My sense is it's really
important to help them to understand it's okay

544
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:23.960
to talk to a therapist, you
know. And even today's society, although

545
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:30.000
that's opening up a little bit more, it's still kind of that connotation of

546
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:32.800
oh, you're going to see a
therapist, what's wrong the type of thing,

547
00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:37.480
and we've got to be supportive of
that and recognized that sometimes the only

548
00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:42.119
help that they're really going to get
is to be able to work through with

549
00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:46.480
a therapist all of the issues that
they've experienced from childhood, whether it's abuse

550
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:52.679
or whatever it happens to be.
Yeah, and sometimes you can't talk to

551
00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:59.119
your family because you're so imbued with
all this whatever, negativity, whatever it

552
00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:02.920
is in your head. You can't
talk to your family because maybe they've flemented

553
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:07.039
some of this. Maybe not,
but maybe there's just not listeners and they're

554
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:12.039
the wrong people. And you need
outside a third vision, with someone who

555
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:15.519
actually is independent of your family,
who can actually work with you directly and

556
00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:21.239
find out what's going on, you
know, without a familial influence. So

557
00:41:21.480 --> 00:41:23.800
you're watching a family that's just a
mess, you're saying, a child that

558
00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:30.480
potentially is suicidal. How do you
talk to that family and convince the parents

559
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:34.320
that they need to get their kids
to see a therapist. That's a battle.

560
00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:37.599
I mean, sometimes they'll listen,
and sometimes they'll say, no,

561
00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:40.639
you're wrong, you know this is
nuts, leave us alone whatever. And

562
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:45.719
that's tough to deal with because when
the parents are rigid enough that they don't

563
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:50.639
want to recognize that for whatever reason, they feel they've failed or it's cast

564
00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:54.960
aspersion on them because their kids messed
up. Who knows. But it's a

565
00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:58.159
difficult thing. To do. And
then you have to see if you can,

566
00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:00.840
depending on the age of the child, see if you can send help

567
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:05.000
for the kid, or you know, reach out and let the child know

568
00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:07.880
that you're available for them. It's
kind of circumventing the parents and it's a

569
00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:13.119
little dicey, but you know,
it just depends on the circumstance well,

570
00:42:13.159 --> 00:42:15.079
and it is a challenge. It
is a challenge to be able to talk

571
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:19.920
to sit down and talk to parents
and say hey, let's get some help

572
00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:21.960
to your friend. And they're going, well, it's not your business,

573
00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:24.360
we're just fine, and type of
thing. But for parents, parents,

574
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:30.039
parents, parents that are listening to
this, I think the key is open

575
00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:36.320
up that discussion, open up that
communication line. Get to know your kids

576
00:42:36.440 --> 00:42:40.760
and get to support them rather than
with your values. Get to support them

577
00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:45.679
and their values. Now that's kind
of scary sometimes it is, but at

578
00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:49.119
least you can if you open that
dialogue, you can find out what's in

579
00:42:49.159 --> 00:42:52.519
their head. They'll talk if you
let them, and you have to listen.

580
00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:55.239
Listening is key. My father always
told me, if you want to

581
00:42:55.280 --> 00:43:00.400
make a friend, just listen,
you know, let them talk, and

582
00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:04.519
frequently when they talk, everything comes
out good. Bad and indifferent, and

583
00:43:04.559 --> 00:43:07.719
then you can kind of analyze the
situation and see if it's something that you

584
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:10.320
can do to direct them. Look, I'm not a doctor, I'm not

585
00:43:10.360 --> 00:43:15.320
a clinician, but I live this
and I bring to the table something different

586
00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:20.079
because I've actually got it in my
gut and in my brain. I lived

587
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.559
it, and I'm trying to do
something to help somebody else so that they

588
00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:24.800
don't have to live it. And
for parents who have gone through this or

589
00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:28.960
families who have gone through it's the
same thing. They have to know,

590
00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:32.320
you know, how they can deal
with it. And we do deal with

591
00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:35.639
it. We don't get over it. We all learn to live with it,

592
00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:39.559
but we can get through this together. It's just you can't do it

593
00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:43.360
on your own. It's too difficult. You know, you'll shut the world

594
00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:46.960
out and it's a mess. No, you can and to learn those communication

595
00:43:47.119 --> 00:43:52.960
skills. I mean even even you
know. I've experienced this with friends that

596
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:58.119
don't spink real good English, and
it's really fascinating because they'll say something and

597
00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:01.320
normally you know, okay, got
it, got it when I really didn't.

598
00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:06.519
But being able to go back and
say, okay, we're going to

599
00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:09.119
have a communication, but there's things
that I'm not going to understand that you're

600
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:14.119
saying. And when I don't understand, I'm going to ask you to explain

601
00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:17.000
that a little bit further. Clarify
that a little bit further is that okay,

602
00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:21.480
well, yeah, absolutely, because
they want to be understood. And

603
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:24.079
what I have found is when you
do that, all of a sudden,

604
00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:29.280
that opens up back communication lines,
so being able to you know, you

605
00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:32.119
talk about communication, and one of
the fun funniest things and yet is that

606
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:37.079
is they talk about the fact that
when someone is talking to you, you're

607
00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:40.519
so busy trying to say figure out
what you're going to say next, that

608
00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:44.920
you're not really listening. And I
think you've hit it on the head.

609
00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:50.320
Is that we've got to learn to
be good listeners, non judgmental listeners,

610
00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:55.480
and be able to then go back
to whomever it happens to be and really

611
00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:01.599
number one, acknowledge what they said. Number two repeat back what they said

612
00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:07.639
to make sure that your understanding is
what they really meant. And going through

613
00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:10.920
that type of process I think would
really open up a lot. But I

614
00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:17.239
mean, how much communication did you
learn in school? Not much, me

615
00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:21.119
neither until I went back to business
school, and all of a sudden there

616
00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:27.239
was this huge course on communication,
and it's like holy cow, and it

617
00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:34.360
was fascinating to see how poorly up
to that point I had understood about communication,

618
00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:38.480
you know, So I think that
becomes key. So, Carl,

619
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:44.559
as we're closing out, what would
be the message that you would like to

620
00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:49.679
share with the audience today? Excuse
me? Be kind to people. If

621
00:45:49.719 --> 00:45:53.679
you have kids, listen to them, talk to them, don't judge them,

622
00:45:53.960 --> 00:45:58.639
Let them know that you're there for
them, you know, physically,

623
00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:05.679
emotionally, and spiritually, and that
if you see somebody who's having an issue,

624
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:07.559
try and reach out and help.
The worst you can do is embarrass

625
00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:12.159
somebody by being a little bit overzealous. But if you hear someone talking about

626
00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:15.719
killing themselves, giving their possessions away, dropping out of society, not caring,

627
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:20.840
becoming completely disinterested, step in and
do something. If it's not with

628
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:22.280
them, it's with their family,
it's with somebody, because you might save

629
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:28.079
their life. And I think the
biggest thing that I can impart is just

630
00:46:28.599 --> 00:46:30.800
to be kind, to be nice. This is a tough world we're living

631
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:35.400
in. It's not getting any easier, and we all need to be there

632
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:38.800
for each other, pure and simple. Well, and I think you've hit

633
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:42.679
it on the gate, Carl.
Again, this has been a great discussion,

634
00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:47.000
and what you're doing from the standpoint
of suicidal advocacy to try to prevent

635
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:53.400
that, I think is amazing.
And you know, it's just little things

636
00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:57.599
like that that some people do that
makes all the difference in the world.

637
00:46:57.719 --> 00:47:01.599
So kudos to you for doing what
you're doing. Thank you. I appreciate

638
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:05.599
it. It's not always easy.
It's an emotional journey for me back to

639
00:47:05.719 --> 00:47:07.840
nineteen sixty five, but I feel
like it's something I just have to do

640
00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:13.039
or wasted an opportunity to maybe save
a life, or save lives or just

641
00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:15.840
help somebody. You know, it's
just that simple. Thank you, and

642
00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:19.719
I really appreciate the time being on
your show. You're and you're right.

643
00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:22.199
It's not a much easily to do
it because as we absorb their emotions,

644
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:27.840
it becomes difficult for us. So
it's it's a courageous thing to do.

645
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:30.320
And that's what you've done. How
do they find your book, Carl?

646
00:47:31.159 --> 00:47:34.960
If you do a search for bader
Field be a D E R if I

647
00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:38.519
E L D by Carl David It'll
show up in a myriad of places digital

648
00:47:38.559 --> 00:47:43.519
formats. It's in the Apple I
Bookstore, it's in Amazon, Barnes and

649
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:45.880
Noble. And if anybody has a
problem getting it, just reach out to

650
00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:51.199
me. My email is Carl E. David at gmail dot com and I'm

651
00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:54.800
available on my website shows a lot
of what I'm doing Carl dash David dot

652
00:47:54.840 --> 00:47:59.239
com. All right, Carl,
thanks so much, and I look forward

653
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:02.039
to getting you and again in the
future and seeing what you're doing and see

654
00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:06.400
if you've come into some more insights. Thank you anytime. Appreciate it.

655
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:08.760
Doctor. Hey, take care you'd
bye.