April 28, 2026

The Four Plateaus to a Life You Can Breathe In

The Four Plateaus to a Life You Can Breathe In
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Tony Silard shares how trauma can become fuel for wholeness, not a life sentence. We talk acceptance without surrender, forgiveness without forgetting, gratitude that replaces judgment, and love that becomes a way of living. This is a grounded, research-backed conversation with a spiritual heartbeat.
www.theartoflivingfree.org

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,

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legal counseling, professional service, or any advice.

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You should seek the services.

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Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.

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At the end of the day, it's not about what

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you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what

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you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,

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who you've made better. It's about what you've given back

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Thanzel Washington, Welcome to inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is

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to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you

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to do the same.

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Anthony Welcome.

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Hey, thank you, Doug. It's good to be here with you.

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I appreciate you inviting me on your show.

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Well, I'm looking forward to it. You know, it's really funny. Initially,

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when I was living in the US and doing these

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most most of the people I've talked to are from

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the US, and now I'm talking to people from all

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over the world and where you living at this point

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in time.

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Well, I'm originally from Washington, d C. I'm from the

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US and we are living in Rome, Italy.

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Wow, that's fantastic. I imagine you love that there.

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Yeah, we do, we do. We live in in an

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area called Costelli Romani. It's about half an hour outside

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of Rome, and I take the train into work and

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uh and and then the bus. It's uh. You know,

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it's a good it's a it's a it's a good

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lifestyle being in a in a small town here in Italy.

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That's wonderful. Well, what I'd love for you to do.

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I find it always fascinating to hear the story behind

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where you're you know, what you're doing, and so if

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you can share with you audience kind of the background

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of who you are, what brought you to doing what

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you're doing, and talk a little bit about what you're doing,

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talk about the book that you just written, and so

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on and so forth.

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Okay, thanks Doug. So well, So originally from from d C.

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I grew up there. I went to Berkeley to go

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to college, and you know, a lot of the family

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dysfunction happening in my life. I probably would have gone further,

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if I was a better swimmer, then then I Then

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I came back to to Washington and I ended up

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joining the Peace Corps, and so I went to Kenya.

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I was there for two years in a small region

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and about three hours inland from Mombasa, as a teacher.

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And then I went and did a lot of community

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development work there. I came back to the States did

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my masters at Harvard at their Public Policy School, focusing

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on leadership, and it was between the Public Policy School

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and Harvard Business School and yeah, and then I actually

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three weeks after the graduation, I was back in Kenya.

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I had started my first nonprofit organization, which I grew

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to over fifteen million dollars in revenues. We had about

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forty staff and built set up divisions in Kenya, Tanzania, Guatemala, Indonesia, Oakland, California, Washington,

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d c. Teaching disadvantaged youth how to start businesses and

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how to find employment and linking them with each other.

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So this was really the early early days of the

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Internet where these young people that for example, in rural

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Kenya could connect with young people in rural Indonesia and

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in inner city Oakland, California, and Washington, d C. And that.

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So I was running that organization for about nine years.

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Then I moved on to the board, found someone else

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to run it. And what I started to realize is

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that is that I really had a passion for writing.

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And at the same time, I also realized that the

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point of starting the organization was not to run it

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myself forever. I guess you could say I'm kind of

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a serial social entrepreneur, like I really wanted to create it,

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but then I found that running it was not was

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not my passion. You know, A lot of my time

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was was was fundraising, managing people. And I was really

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curious more about how to run an organization than actually

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running one. Which may sound strange, but I felt like

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as as a nonprofit leader, no one really showed me

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what to do, and there were and I didn't really

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you know, reading the books on it. It's kind of

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like playing basketball or tennis. You can't just just study

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about it. You got to go out and do it.

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And and so I learned on the fly, and I

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just became very curious about that. I also became very

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curious about personal development. I think based on some of

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the really challenging circumstances I had had growing up in Washington,

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and and so I started writing books. I started doing

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leadership development programs for other nonprofit leaders. It's funny. I

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went to the head of the Management Center in San Francisco,

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a guy named Bob Walker, and I went to him like, Hey,

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I'm thinking of transitioning out of this organization, you know,

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after being there for the nine years, and I have

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this idea, like, what if we were to develop a

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leadership development program for nonprofit leaders based on the same

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experiential education principles. So instead of you know, you know,

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you can't really dictate to leaders. You know, leaders don't

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like to be led, So what if it was really like,

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instead of bringing them certain abilities and ideas, bringing out

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the abilities within them through a very interactive experiential model.

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And he says, well, that sounds good. Why why don't

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you go ahead and do it in October. We'll recruit

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everyone for you. And I just just blew my mind,

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like really, So that was my first opportunity, and then

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that led to I did these programs and from there

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to India, Mexico, actually done them in over twenty countries

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since then, and so I've been a leadership trainer for

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the last thirty years, and then I decided somewhere around

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let's see, somewhere around my mid forties. I'm fifty eight now,

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some are my mid forties. I well really made realize

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that like I just couldn't keep doing these keynotes and

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leadership you know, leadership speeches anymore, because I felt like

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like I was just regurgitating the same information over and

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over again, and I really I felt like I wasn't

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backing up what I shared with credible research. So it

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was really at that point it was either going to

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be a midlife crisis or a PhD. And I ended

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up with both. So I went and I went to Barcelona,

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did my doctorate at ESA Business School, focusing on emotion

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and leadership, and I continued doing leadership trainings for Fortune

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five hundred companies like you know, like Google, Apple, Toyota, Boeing,

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most of the world's largest nonprofits like Save the Children

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Care and so forth. A lot of political leaders like

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government government ministers of G twenty, governments, mayors, they would

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come to Washing and DC for a few days of

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you know, personalized executive coaching, and so at that point

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really like that's around the time that I married my wife,

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who's from Mexico, and that decision and doing the PhD

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really the two best decisions I've ever made because they

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led to a really huge inflection point. And now we've

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got We've got two children and their trilingual in Italian, Spanish, English,

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and and I'm teaching at Luis Business School in Rome.

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I'm running their Center for Sustainable Leadership. I do now

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about four pro bono nonprofit leadership conferences every year. They

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are like two to three conferences in Africa and Latin America,

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also in Europe, done them in Rome and Amsterdam. Usually

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we have about one hundred and fifty to two hundred

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nonprofit leaders in Europe. It's more like around sixty or seventy.

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And I bring in a lot of other professors, which

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is actually turns out to be not so hard to

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do to get them to volunteer, because I start off with, hey,

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I'm volunteering. I do this pro bono. I'd love for

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these nonprofit leaders to be exposed to the really cutting

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edge research you're doing. And so we get these wonderful

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people to come in and we fly them all over

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the world. They come with me to Africa and a

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lot of America. In Mexico. Last August, we had nineteen

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thought leaders, half of them from Mexico, half from the

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US and Europe, and we did a three day leadership

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conference for about two hundred and twenty five Mexican nonprofits.

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So yeah, I really I got to say, I mean,

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I really love it. It's on the one hand, On

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the one hand, I love to write. I guess the

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only words about writing that have really, you know, cut

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so close to my heart more than any other would

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be glorious Steinem She once said, writing is the only

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thing that when I'm doing it, I don't feel like

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doing anything else. And that's how it feels for me.

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And yeah, let me ask you. Let me ask you

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a question about that, because it's interesting you've done all

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of this leadership training and you know, nonprofits and so

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on and so forth, and yet you've written this book

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Love and Suffering, which maybe that's leadership training, but it

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sounds to me and hopefully it's a little bit more

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on a personal level for generalized population.

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Well that's that's that's exactly right. So I kind of

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walked this tight rope between between personal development and leadership development.

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And at the end of the day, if you think

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about any leader you've ever met where you thought, oh, really,

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I'd really like to join this person, I really like

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to work with this person, it's it's probably because you

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found them to be a person of really good character,

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a person with really good values, person you like to

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hang out with, regardless of whether you're working together. And

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so I would say, all of all of the leadership

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principles I teach and that I research, they're really about

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a confluence between personal character and the and and our

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socio emotional abilities how we interact with others. So love

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and suffering is I go. Really So, you know, I

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teach leadership, I also teach organizational psychology at Louis Business School,

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and I've lectured on these topics at you know, Harvard, Stanford, Georgetown.

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And it's they're they're they're really to be a good leader.

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Say the saying I really like is that to be

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a good leader on the outside, you first have to

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be become a good leader on the inside. So it's

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really about how we approach our relationships, starting with our

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relationship with our with ourselves. So love and suffering is

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really about that, Like I I I have what I

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call the the the four plateaus to each a state

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of love, and I integrate psychological research, the latest psychological

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research on these plateaus, which are acceptance, forgiveness, gratitude, and love,

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and each plateau has an obstacle that has to be overcome.

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So to reach a state of acceptance, we have to

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overcome suffering. To reach to reach forgiveness, we overcome resentment.

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To reach gratitude, we overcome judgment. And to reach a

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state of love, we overcome what I call incarceration, which

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we can get to later if you like. But it's

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really about you know, I think a lot of people

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and myself included, sometimes we kind of walk around with

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our eyes covered by our hands and we cry about

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how dark it is. And so I think when with

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love and suffering, my attempt is to help people to

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remove their hands from in front of their eyes see

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the light, the love that's in front of them, but

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that we often overlook.

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Well, and you know, I kind of smile when you

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talk about the first step that is overcoming suffering, because

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that is definitely a Buddhist concept. Yeah.

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Buddhis is that there's there suffering and there's the cessation

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of suffering. Yeah. So yeah, So I'm not like one

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specific religion. I believe in God, but I don't. I don't.

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I'm more spiritual than religious. But I think a lot

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of our world's most you know, most attended and popular

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religions have this construct of of suffering and then and

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then love or passion emerging from it. So, for example,

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in in African cultures you have the phoenix rises, So

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not just religious but cultural context, you have the phoenix

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rising from the ashes you have in In fact, if

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you look at the word suffering, a lot of people

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don't know this, but the etymology of the word suffering

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suffering comes from p a t I patti in Latin

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or patire, which means to suffer. So for example, in

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Christianity we have the crucifixion, the suffering, the passion of

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Christ's I think about, you know, in the leadership coaching

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I've done, I think about this woman who came to

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me once. She's a marketing director of a fortune one

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hundred pharmaceutical company, and she told me, she said, you know,

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I have trouble tony waking up and just going to

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my job. That's how much I dislike it. I just

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don't feel authentic there. I don't enjoy it. And so

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I asked her to share, kind of from a psychoanalytical perspective,

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share about how she grew up, like what's important to

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her and why. And so she, over the next forty

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five minutes or so, shared with me a a long

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story about her childhood and how it really wasn't much

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of a childhood for her because most of it was

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spent nurturing her father before he passed away from cancer

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when she was twelve, like her and her mother taking

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care of her dad. And so I worked with her

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on making a career change. And I would say to

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your listeners, I could see if you can guess what

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she's doing now, what kind of career change she made?

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Well, probably a nurse, right.

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She's actually now the director of a major hospital, leading

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a team of researchers doing research on cancer and other

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diseases and illnesses. So fewer families suffer the way her

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hurst did. And you know, okay, so now I'll share

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this a little bit about you know, my own story. So,

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I grew up with a stepfather who is physically abusive

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and when a man, you know, I was ten eleven

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and he would, you know, throw me down on a

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radiator and almost broke my back one time. It wasn't

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I'd walk funny coming to school and it was not

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a good time. And you know when a man comes

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into your home who's not your father, sleeps with your

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mother and beats you up, you don't feel like much

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of a person. Well, that that's how I grew up.

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And so that that's suffering. Which it's interesting because our

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first instinct is is for me, for example, beats to

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resent him. And I resented him for decades, and I

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realized that that that was preventing me from going anywhere

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in my life. So resentment actually comes from re which

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is again and sentiare, which is to feel to feel

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anger again and again and again until we become paralyzed.

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And I didn't want to live that way anymore. So

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I realized I had to forgive him, less for him

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than for myself, just so that I could I could

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move forward in my life. One thing I write about

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in Love and Suffering is that the difference between forgiveness

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and trust is that forgiveness is necessary for personal development,

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is necessary so we can move forward in our own lives.

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Trust is necessary for relationship development. In order we don't

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trust someone, the relationship cannot continue. But I wasn't continuing. Sorry,

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I wasn't choosing to continue a relationship with him. Is

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I wasn't going to resent him anymore. But I wasn't

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exactly going to go look him up and say, hey,

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let's go grab a beer. It was more that I

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want I needed to forgive him for my own sake.

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There's you know, it's interesting because we have all these

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myths that we're exposed to in our lives, like, for example,

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you know, forgiven forget that's some of the worst advice

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I've ever heard. I would say, forgive and remember, now,

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don't remember. Don't make it like the core thing in

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your prefuntal cortex that you're thinking about every day. But

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it's kind of like if you if you're walking home

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at night and you fall into a ditch. I don't

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know what advice you'd want from a personal development author,

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but I would certainly say it might be a good

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idea to remember where that ditch is.

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Well, yeah, yeah, go ahead.

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Yeah.

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What I find fascinating is as you talk about forgiveness

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and how important that is, it reminds me that if

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we've not forgiven someone, we almost position in ourselves in

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that victim mode. And you know, when you get into

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the behavioral analysis and you get into this whole concept

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of emotions, you recognize that victim is way down there

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on that scale. And if we tend to find that,

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often in our lives we never rise to the level

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where we can really experience that joy, that love, that

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type of thing. So I find that fascinating. So as

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you go through the suffering and you say, how to

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overcome the youth suffering to some degree is to move

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into forgiveness. And then once you've learned to move into

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forgiveness and start to experience a different beingness than what's

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the next step in the book beyond forgiveness.

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Well, I'm glad you said that about being in this

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sort of victim position, because that is what I was

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really thinking about. And I was thinking, when we move

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from resentment to forgiveness, it's really taking ourselves out of

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the victim role. It's it's being able to say what

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I write about in Love and Suffering around forgiveness. One

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of the strategies is that to forgive is to give

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for So my stepfather could not give me what I

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needed from him as a young boy. Of course it's

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the opposite. But I finally chose to give for him

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to myself, like, Okay, he couldn't give that to me.

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I started to look into what what was his life like?

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He was unemployed, He felt like society he was a

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journalist who had become unemployed, felt like society had kind

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of chewed him up and spit him out. And so

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the only semblance of power he could access in his

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life was to feel like he was acting in a

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dominant role with an eleven year old boy. Okay, so

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that's that's that's that's where he was. And and the

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thing though about forgiveness is that a lot of us

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think there's even uh, there's even quotes by very famous

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thinkers like Nabor about like that forgiveness is the highest

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form of love. And I disagree with that because forgiveness

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also has his challenges. So if we go from resentment

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to forgiveness, that's a good space to be in, right

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to forgive someone, but we also have to recognize that

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forgiveness is impossible without judgment. You cannot forgive someone unless

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you have first judged them. If you don't judge them

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in the first place, there's no need for forgiveness. So

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this is this is so, this is the irony? Is that?

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And let's think about forgiveness language. Okay, so let's suppose

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you you have a friend, or let's say you're in

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an intimate relationship and the other person says to you, Doug,

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you know what, my life was really horrible because of

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what you've done. You really made me miserable. It's never

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been the same. I just haven't had a I just

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this has been horrible for me. But I want you

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to know that I forgive you. You know, do you

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want someone to say that to you, because I certainly

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don't now. And that's the thing is that is that

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there is a more exalted state than forgiveness, which is

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really one of the core messages I love and suffering,

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which is we can go from forgiveness and move toward

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and move up into gratitude. So if we take away

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the judgment, so for example, okay, look, I had a

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physically abusive stepfather. That was no fun right for those years.

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But hey, I'm here talking with you. I'm not like

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working on Wall Street having my fourth affair on my

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third wife, not even really knowing who my children are.

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That's not my life because of that suffering that I

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went through, because of that feeling of not being safe

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as a young boy. My passion it emanates from that,

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like so feeling powerless as a child. My personal vision

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is to help others to feel powerful, to access the

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power that's rightfully theirs. Again, as long as they remove

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their hands from their eyes and see what's possible right

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in front of them. That wakes me up every day

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gives that's my motivation to come and do podcasts, to

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write books, to write articles, to do research, to teach.

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And I'm grateful for it, so believe it or not,

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I can honestly tell you I'm grateful for my stepfather,

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my ex step father. Fortunately they actually he's not alive anymore,

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would they, but they have. My mother divorced him decades ago,

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and fortunately she's now been been very happily married for

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over three decades. So uh so, But it's that is

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that is that so so so moving to gratitude. I

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guess one visualization I would recommend for your for your

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listeners or viewers is think back to when you were

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in grade school or high school or university and think

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back to what the person you would consider the greatest

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teacher you've ever had. Right, and imagine that you're going

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back to that classroom or that or that dance dance

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hall or that sports field, and you're you have one

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more chance before you continue on with your life, before

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you're leaving. You get up from your desk or the

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bleachers wherever you're sitting, you and you you have a

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chance to turn around and look at that teacher. What

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would you want to say to your greatest teacher if

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you have the chance. And and when I do this

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visualization in my conferences, would people say time and time again?

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Is well? I would say thank you? And this is

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the thing, is that some people come in our lives

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to help us, to help us enjoy our vision, enjoy

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our life vision and the values that we have. Other

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people come in our lives to help us refine that

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life vision and those values. And my ex stepfather came

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into my life to help me refine that vision I

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had for my life and make a huge change. But

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I couldn't do it until I stopped resenting him and

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was willing to forgive him. So that forgiveness became a

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step critical step on moving forward in my life toward

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gratitude and being grateful that I had this experience. Think

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think about how many people you know that have really

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troubled relationships and when they finally get out of the relationship,

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you know, they just resent this person for wasting those

401
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years of their lives. And I think it's actually the

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opposite that should take place, like, be grateful that you

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had this other person to step in the ring with

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you of how relationships work and learn what you're not

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looking for and if you're lucky, a few things you

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are looking for.

407
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Well, you know, it's interesting. I mean, I've interviewed hundreds

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of people, and I can guarantee you anyone that is

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out there really making a difference in people's lives similar

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to your story. They have all experienced some type of

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trauma in their lives, and yet they were the ones

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that went from victimhood to forgiveness to gratitude. And I

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can't tell you how many times as we've talked about that,

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it is that whole point that when they can look

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back at those experiences and realize that that's what led

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them to this purpose of being able to make a

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difference in other people's lives. Then that gratitude sets in.

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And it's amazing to me that you you know, well

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not you hit it right on the head, but it's

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amazing that people don't understand that. You know, once they

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can get rid of that resentment, forgive and be grateful,

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it makes all the difference in the world in their lives.

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You're right on target there, Doug, And I'll share with

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you as a leadership coach, every CEO or senior leader

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that comes comes to see me is because they're stuck

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in one way or another. And the only way I've

427
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ever found to get them unstuck is to realize that

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they're stuck because there's someone in their life that they

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need to forgive. There's always someone that they've never been

430
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able to forgive, and they so For example, a CEO

431
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of actually a multinational in Europe who came and spent

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some time with me and the challenge he faces that

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he was always really hard on his employees and always

434
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held them to standards that he couldn't even really really

435
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achieve himself, and so he really had trouble keeping people.

436
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Those attrition rates were extremely high. Came see me and

437
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and what he realized after we did some coaching. Is

438
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that that's how his father had been with him. That's

439
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that's all he knew for how to how to be

440
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in in a leadership role, how to guide others, was

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to be extremely exacting. And it wasn't until he could

442
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forgive his own father for uh, for holding to unreasonable expectations,

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unrealistic expectations, that he could actually let go of it

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and move toward feeling gratitude for his father and ultimately

445
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love for his father, who he had resented his whole life.

446
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And and so this is this is the thing You're

447
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you hit hit the nail on the head, Doug when

448
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you talked about that the people that you know that

449
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have really been able to sustainably engender positive change in

450
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their lives for others, it's it's it's because first of all,

451
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they've experienced some trauma which led them down this path

452
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in the first place, as opposed to that other path

453
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again of like not knowing your family and having all

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these affairs and just and just basically being narcissistic, which

455
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probably my life would have gone down that path otherwise

456
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because I had that kind of strategic way of thinking.

457
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I still do. I just channel it towards personal and

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social change then for you know, just trying to exploit

459
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people and so taking that trauma and transforming it into

460
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post traumatic growth and so in Love and Suffering, I

461
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:34.279
go deep into the research of Richard Calhoun Lawrence Tedesky,

462
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who really the two psychologists at the University of North

463
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Carolina who created the concept of post traumatic growth and

464
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:45.960
post traumatic growth is really when you experience trauma, well,

465
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:49.480
one of three things tends to happen. So first thing

466
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:52.039
is nothing. Some people experience trauma and just doesn't make

467
00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:55.319
much change in them. For some reason. They have this

468
00:26:55.400 --> 00:26:58.519
superhuman capacity to just kind of deflect it, although that's

469
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:01.400
really rare. What they to do instead is they numb

470
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:05.480
themselves to any kind of negative feeling, but that also

471
00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:08.480
cuts out any positive feelings, and so they just kind

472
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:12.480
of go through life a little bit robotic, just kind

473
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:17.799
of a sterile, antiseptic life approach where they don't really

474
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:20.480
experience the ups and downs so much, which I wouldn't

475
00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:24.839
recommend for anyone. The other two more common outcomes when

476
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:27.680
someone goes through trauma. The first is that they get

477
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:29.920
taken under they are traumatized and they can't get out

478
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:32.559
of it. And I would say, I mean, I do

479
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:36.519
a lot of research on trauma. I've interviewed hundreds of

480
00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:44.480
police officers and counselors, psychologists, and people that experiencing tremendous trauma.

481
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:49.440
And a lot of people they are traumatized but at

482
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:52.519
kind of moderate levels where it ends up manifesting and

483
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:58.119
like spousal abuse, alcohol, drug abuse, a lot of dysfunctional behaviors,

484
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:01.680
but they're still able to function on some level with

485
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:06.319
their jobs and society. Yet they really they really could be.

486
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:10.759
They're surviving, but they're not thriving. And then there's those

487
00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:13.079
people who are able to grow from trauma, and so

488
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:16.759
post traumatic growth is for those people. It's about those

489
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:20.480
people and what they what they do is based on

490
00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:25.519
the trauma they they they have a psychological way of

491
00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:28.200
transforming the way they see the world, the way they

492
00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:34.839
see themselves, spirituality, relationships, their priorities, everything changes because they've

493
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:37.519
been able not only to experience the trauma, not only

494
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:41.680
to acknowledge they've experienced, but to process it so that

495
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:45.599
that all begins with acceptance. Like there's a I've got

496
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:50.319
the the the story in Love and Suffering of of

497
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:56.720
a of a pilot who goes to uh, to Vietnam,

498
00:28:56.839 --> 00:28:59.359
and he's any and he's you know, he gets caught.

499
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:02.720
He's you know, he gets caught and he's a POW

500
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:07.279
and literally goes from like living in a midwestern town,

501
00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:09.680
just got married two years earlier, He's got a few,

502
00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:12.039
he's got a couple of kids. He's uh, you know,

503
00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:15.480
at home in his suburban home, watching television. And a

504
00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:19.880
few weeks later, he's drafted. He's in Vietnam and he's caught,

505
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:24.119
and he's in this like rat and insect and mosquito

506
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:29.759
mosquito ridden cell. He's emaciated, and he just can't accept it.

507
00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:32.960
He's a you know, he's he's really gonna die. And

508
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:39.039
somewhere he ends up hearing this voice, and this voice

509
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:42.960
says to him, this is your life. It's inescapable, this

510
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:46.680
is your life. And that stays with him, and he

511
00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:49.759
starts to accept that this is his situation. And from

512
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:53.160
there it's an inflection point and and everything starts to

513
00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:56.440
change for him. He starts to exercise, he starts to

514
00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:59.680
check in with the other POWs and and you know,

515
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:03.079
talk talks with them, how are they doing? Uh? As

516
00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:05.559
much as they can connect in that in that situation

517
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:08.799
and he and he and he ends up outliving the

518
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:11.640
end of the war and you know, and having of

519
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:14.039
course a much better life once he's once he's freed

520
00:30:14.119 --> 00:30:16.880
and reunited with his family. But I think it's a

521
00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:19.279
it's a it's a wonderful story. This this is your life.

522
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:22.119
Like what if I would I would challenge your viewers,

523
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:24.880
your listeners, what is the writing on the wall that

524
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:26.680
you haven't been able to accept?

525
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:27.079
What?

526
00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:31.160
And what what? What? In what dimension of your life?

527
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:34.079
Would it be useful for you now to pretend that

528
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:37.200
you're hearing this voice that says this is your life

529
00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:40.559
and just accepting this is a situation you're dealing with.

530
00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:44.319
I'll give you example. I'm Doug. A lot of people,

531
00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:47.599
a lot of people don't like the direction the world

532
00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:50.759
is moving in right now, and this is very this

533
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:55.720
is this is very ubiquitous globally. And the when I

534
00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:58.319
tell people, well, the first step is to accept it.

535
00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:00.759
This is what's happening. Well, what people say to me

536
00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:03.519
is like, well, wait, but if I accept it, isn't

537
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:06.319
that doesn't that mean I'm condoning it? And I'm like, no,

538
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:09.680
it's doesn't mean that at all. Acceptance is not passivity.

539
00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:15.319
Acceptance is the foundation for self change by accepting your saying, Okay,

540
00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:17.960
this is the this is the writing on the wall,

541
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:20.480
this is the real information I have right now, this

542
00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:25.640
is what's happening outside my door. And from there you

543
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:28.279
can then say, okay, well, now that you're armed with

544
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:31.680
this real information instead of the sort of fabrications we

545
00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:34.519
tell ourselves that we won't get upset. Then with that

546
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:39.519
real information, now you can envision. You can develop your

547
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:42.119
vision of how you want to move forward in your life,

548
00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:43.799
and you can put it into action.

549
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:46.960
Well, and you know you talk about that, and I

550
00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:50.240
think that from that goes the next step, which is love.

551
00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:53.680
And you know, I'm thinking from a Christian standpoint, you

552
00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:57.720
have the same love God and then love your neighbor

553
00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:03.039
as yourself, and everyone forgets that you can't love someone

554
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:07.720
else unless you love yourself first bottom line. But I

555
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:10.880
guess the question, I think that is the hardest thing

556
00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:14.599
for people to do. I mean, as you say, we

557
00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:17.119
see the terminial is going on right now. When I'm

558
00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:20.279
when I'm on social media and see the comments that

559
00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:24.039
are made and the anger that's expressed on both sides.

560
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:28.279
It's amazing to me that somewhere along the line, we've

561
00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:32.400
lost the ability to love our neighbors. And I suspect

562
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:35.680
they don't love ourselves in order to not love your neighbors.

563
00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:40.279
So how does someone learn to develop love for themselves,

564
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:43.559
love for a higher power, love for God and for

565
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:46.680
this earth and all the beauty that's here and the nature,

566
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:49.119
and then how to love our neighbors.

567
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:55.400
Well, let's go to the father of Joey, who Joey

568
00:32:55.480 --> 00:32:59.079
was one of the was was was the guy or

569
00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:00.839
one of the one of the guy who tried to

570
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:04.559
apprehend the shooter who came into a bowling alley and

571
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:07.000
I think killed like twenty people, one of the mass

572
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:10.200
shootings over the last year and a half or two.

573
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:17.920
And he it was in the United States and Joey's father, Joey,

574
00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:20.359
was killed by the shooter he went while he tried

575
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:24.000
to apprehend him, and Joey's father he did an interview

576
00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:26.680
on CNN I think it was, and he said, like,

577
00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:29.039
I'm not going to hate this person. So I'm not

578
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:31.400
going to hate this man. I'm not going to let

579
00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:34.000
him ruin my life like he ruined my son's life.

580
00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:37.559
Is that he he must have coming from a Christian perspective.

581
00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:41.480
He shared, I was taught to love my neighbor and

582
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:43.759
to love others, and that's what we grew up with.

583
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:47.039
And I see that this man was ill and he

584
00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:49.759
didn't get exposed to what I had been exposed to,

585
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:53.759
and I just thought that was beautiful. And we think

586
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:56.400
about loving our neighbors. One thing we have to realize

587
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:00.000
is that it's not just the failings of human names

588
00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:04.680
nature that are leading to our inability to love our neighbors.

589
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:09.400
There's other there's other other effects that are that are

590
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:13.559
being wrought on society right now. So, uh, even if

591
00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:16.440
we just look at at at at how we use technology.

592
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:21.239
So there was one study at University of Cambridge where they, uh,

593
00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:27.519
they looked at which which comments by politicians are are

594
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:31.239
forwarded or liked and in on social media you know

595
00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:35.719
Facebook and Twitter, slash x or LinkedIn and so forth

596
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:40.719
and Instagram. And what they found was that when a

597
00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:45.519
politician was was was sharing a message that was negative

598
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:49.880
and attacking the out group, those messages were liked or

599
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:54.000
forwarded at two point seven times the rate of messages

600
00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:58.079
where the politician was being not expressing any kind of

601
00:34:58.119 --> 00:35:03.039
negative emotion either. Neutra or positive emotion toward toward their

602
00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:07.119
in group, toward their followers, so two point seven times

603
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:09.360
the rate. So that means when we go on social media,

604
00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:16.239
we're essentially we're essentially seeing a virtual environment that skewed

605
00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:21.280
negative when also Chris Chris Byron's research at Georgia State

606
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:25.840
University where she found that what's called the negative effective

607
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:30.119
bias not effective but effective, like emotional the negative effective

608
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:36.039
bias of email, texting, electronic communication. What Chris found is

609
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:43.800
that when a sender sends a positive message on email

610
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:47.360
or text, it's an emotionally positive message, it's usually received

611
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:51.599
by the recipient as being emotionally neutral. And when the

612
00:35:51.639 --> 00:35:55.840
sender sends an emotionally neutral message, it's usually received by

613
00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:59.719
the recipient as being emotionally negative. So there's this downward

614
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:06.480
negative paul and slant and lens over our everything we're

615
00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:11.159
seeing in virtually, whether it's social media, whether it's electronic email, texting,

616
00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:14.960
and unfortunately this is the way most of us are

617
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:19.000
have become used to communicating. But it's not I always

618
00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.840
say that email is for you know, email is efficiency email,

619
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:26.159
it's not emotional mail. When we have like a real

620
00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:29.400
a message that may get some pushback that we may

621
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:31.199
need to discuss. We got to do that in person,

622
00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:34.199
or at least by phone. There's other research showing that

623
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:37.920
phone contact is about the same. It's not quite the same,

624
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:41.679
but it's pretty close to face to face communication. But

625
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:44.920
as soon as you go textual it all falls apart.

626
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:48.880
In fact, there's a study on how we dehumanize each other,

627
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:52.280
and when you ask someone to listen to a speech

628
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.039
from someone of the opposition party, not the party they

629
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:59.480
belong to, but the opposition political party, well they tend

630
00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:03.440
to dehue humanize that person if they read the message textually.

631
00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:06.840
But if they hear the message, just hearing the voice

632
00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:10.440
of another human being kind of disarms them and they

633
00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:13.880
don't dehumanize nearly as much, if at all. So I

634
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:16.559
think if part of it is like we have to

635
00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:19.639
relearn how to love, which I think is true in

636
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:24.639
this new current environment that we're that we're living in,

637
00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:27.639
which has change, which has changed a lot. So it's technology,

638
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:30.559
there's other factors too. I mean, we're look at the

639
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:34.119
disparities between haves and have nots. So you know, twenty

640
00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:37.079
five years ago, the average CEO in the US was

641
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:41.320
earning about sixty times. The average employee in their own

642
00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:45.480
company or organization is now over two hundred and eighty

643
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:49.599
times hire the CEO salary based on versus the average

644
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:52.719
employee in their company. So we're seeing a lot of

645
00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:55.639
disparities and a lot of reasons where people are saying, well,

646
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:57.679
others don't care about me, so I'm just going to

647
00:37:57.760 --> 00:37:59.960
do the same thing. But you know, if you look

648
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:02.079
look at this, there's a lot of research too on

649
00:38:02.119 --> 00:38:05.920
what's called the norm of self interest. Stanford professor Dale

650
00:38:05.960 --> 00:38:08.880
Miller did this study where he found that most people

651
00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:13.000
believe that others are self interested, and so if they're

652
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:15.639
self interested, I'm going to be self interested too. But

653
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:18.840
it's actually false. In fact, if you look, for example,

654
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:22.199
if you give if you give different people twenty dollars

655
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:25.800
and you say, hey, go buy something for yourself or

656
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:27.960
to another group of a few hundred people, you give

657
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:29.800
them twenty dollars and you say, hey, go buy something

658
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:32.960
for someone else. Later that evening, you ask them, you know,

659
00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:36.719
you ask them how they're feeling, and you also put

660
00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:39.360
some electrodes up to their brain. Well, what you find

661
00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:42.599
is that they're happier if they gave something to someone

662
00:38:42.599 --> 00:38:45.239
else than if they kept if they bought something for themselves.

663
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:49.400
And the prefrontal cortex of the brain, the part that

664
00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:55.039
experiences reward from a dopamine surge. We actually release more

665
00:38:55.639 --> 00:39:00.559
dopamine neurotransmitters into our bloodstream when we're hell helping someone

666
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:03.360
else than when we're doing something for ourselves. So I

667
00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:07.400
think human nature is actually kinder than than we believe.

668
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:11.679
We just have to kind of re re tap into it,

669
00:39:12.039 --> 00:39:14.119
like like become reacquainted with it.

670
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:16.599
And I think that as you start to do things

671
00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:19.440
for other people, as you say, we feel better. But

672
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:22.880
I think I would assume that that leads to greater

673
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:27.039
ability to love and and I think that's so important.

674
00:39:27.079 --> 00:39:31.639
So as we're closing, what what would be a thought

675
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:33.920
that you'd like to share with the audience kind of

676
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:35.360
as a final thought.

677
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:38.480
Okay, sure? And is it okay if I if I

678
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:41.880
first offer two free books to your to your viewers.

679
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:43.840
Now we're going to do that afterwards, but lets.

680
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:46.719
That yeah, sure, sure, okay. So my final thought, then,

681
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:52.599
Doug would be suffering and love are inextricably intertwined. They're

682
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:58.440
they're they're connected with each other profoundly. So when you suffer.

683
00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:02.039
It actually teaches you who and what you love is

684
00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:05.360
because of our suffering that we even have values at all.

685
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:09.199
For most of us, some of that comes through the

686
00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:14.079
passion that emerges from suffering, some from the compassion, which

687
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:18.159
is like passion suffering and calm is with in Latin.

688
00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:20.920
So it's like, it's not to suffer with which reduces

689
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:23.239
our capacity to help someone else, but to be with

690
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:25.960
others and their suffering. So I would say to your listeners,

691
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:30.280
go out and consider think about what's caused you suffering

692
00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:32.880
in your life, because that's a key to helping you

693
00:40:32.920 --> 00:40:36.599
find your passion and helping you find who and what

694
00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:37.000
you love.

695
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:40.920
Great, fantastic, So all right, let's talk about the two

696
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:43.440
free books, and let's talk about how people can find you.

697
00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:46.559
Okay, sure, thanks Doug. So the two free books I'd

698
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:51.119
like to offer to your viewers listeners, well, they're called

699
00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:55.159
The Myth of Happiness, How your definition of happiness creates

700
00:40:55.159 --> 00:40:58.639
your unhappiness. And the second is called the is called

701
00:40:59.159 --> 00:41:03.119
the Myth of Friendship, How your misunderstandings about friendship keep

702
00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:05.639
you lonely. And I'm actually one of the two top

703
00:41:05.719 --> 00:41:08.639
researchers in the world now on loneliness and organizations, so

704
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:12.119
integrates a lot of that research and as well as stories.

705
00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:15.400
And the way you can get these two free books

706
00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:19.199
is very easy. You go to the Art of Livingfree

707
00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:23.559
dot org. So it's the Art of Livingfree dot org

708
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:27.760
slash Free Happiness and Friendship Books. So the way you

709
00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:31.960
can reach me is the Art of Livingfree dot org.

710
00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:34.440
And then if you go to the Art Oflivingfree dot

711
00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:38.079
org slash Free Happiness and Friendship Books, you're going to

712
00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:40.079
get it. You put in your email, you get an

713
00:41:40.119 --> 00:41:42.119
email to confirm it, and then you get the download

714
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:44.239
links and if you like, you can stick around on

715
00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:46.760
the Art of Living Free. You'll by putting in your email,

716
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:52.400
you'll receive an article from me every couple weeks about love, forgiveness, relationships, leadership.

717
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:54.000
And if you don't like, you know, if it's not

718
00:41:54.039 --> 00:41:56.039
your thing, you can unsubscribe at any time and you

719
00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:58.239
still have the books, which you can read on any

720
00:41:58.280 --> 00:42:00.880
eReader or kindle, or you can print them out.

721
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:05.119
And they are great books. I downloaded them and you know,

722
00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:08.440
I just went through them briefly and it's amazing the

723
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:10.800
thoughts and the ideas and the concepts you have there.

724
00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:14.599
So that's wonderful. And you know what I have to say,

725
00:42:14.679 --> 00:42:19.360
it's amazing how people use their life experiences and become

726
00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:23.159
that individual that's making a difference in other people's lives.

727
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:27.400
And obviously what you're doing with your nonprofits and the

728
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:30.280
extent that you're doing it has got to be making

729
00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:33.599
such a difference in people's lives. So kudo to you

730
00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:34.760
for that. Tony.

731
00:42:35.239 --> 00:42:37.960
Well, well, thank you, thank you, Doug, and thank you

732
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:40.119
for having me on your shows. It's an honor to

733
00:42:40.119 --> 00:42:42.280
be here. And I think you're doing that also with

734
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:44.639
you know, in so many ways, with the work you're doing.

735
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:47.360
And I know we focused on me, but we could

736
00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:50.039
have turned this around and all the good things you're

737
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:52.320
doing Doug, so appreciate you well.

738
00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:55.400
And there's all these other topics I'd love to talk

739
00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:58.400
to you about. I think this topic of loneliness and

740
00:42:59.239 --> 00:43:03.960
loneliness versus aloneeness would be an incredible topic to talk about,

741
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:07.519
but maybe another time. So anyway, again, Tony, thanks so

742
00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:08.760
much for being on the show.

743
00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:11.079
Thank you, Doug. I appreciate it, and.

744
00:43:11.079 --> 00:43:14.119
Folks, thanks for listening. I hope you've enjoyed it. Look

745
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:16.719
forward to having you join us again soon. So This

746
00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:22.559
is doctor Doug saying no mistay