April 30, 2026

Just Connect: Tony Silard on Love, Loneliness, and the Wounds That Teach Us

Just Connect: Tony Silard on Love, Loneliness, and the Wounds That Teach Us
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Tony Silard returns to explore why so many of us feel alone, even in a crowd. From his Love Progression Model, Tony reveals how childhood imprints shape our ability to connect, why forgiveness can be a power play, and how gratitude might be the real path to love. Dr. Doug and Tony share powerful personal stories about what happens when we stop running from our wounds and start letting the light in. Tony's parting wisdom? Two words: just connect. www.theartoflivingfree.org

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WEBVTT

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,

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legal counseling, professional service, or any advice.

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You should seek the services.

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Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.

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At the end of the day, it's not about what

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you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what

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you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,

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who you've made better. It's about what you've given back.

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Thanzel Washington, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is

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to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you

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to do the same.

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Hey, Tony, welcome back to the show. Thank you.

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Doug.

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Happy to be here and back with you. Yeah, you know,

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it's so interesting.

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You've written a couple of really great books, and I

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want you to talk about it a little bit. But

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what's interesting is last one we got off on a

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topic and we spent the whole time just talking about

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suffering and how that can be a value if you

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look at it their appropriate way. And we didn't even

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get into a lot of the other topics that I

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think are so important. So let the audience know a

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little bit quick background to who you are and talk

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a little bit about your books.

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Okay, sure, well, thank you, Doug. So Okay. So I'm

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Anthony Sillard. I'm I'm a writer and a professor at

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Luis Business School in Rome. I also direct their Center

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for Sustainable Leadership there. I've been a leadership professor, educator, trainer,

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coach for over three decades and worked with a lot

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of fortune five hundred CEOs and senior leaders also from

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most of the world's largest nonprofits like Save the Children,

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Care World, Wildlife Fun, a lot of political leaders, mayors,

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G twenty cabinet ministers and uh uh. And what I

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what I discovered in all of this coaching I've done

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with leaders is that whenever they're stuck, and they have

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to be stuck in some area to come to see

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me for a coaching, generally, whenever when when they're stuck,

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it's it's always attributable to a person in their life

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that they've never forgiven. And that became sort of the

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genesis of my latest book, Love and Suffering, Break the

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emotional chains that prevent you from experiencing love. We talked

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about suffering because that's where we started in our lifetst session,

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Doctor Doug, and then from there we went into you know,

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really deep into suffering and trauma. Well, suffering is really

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the the beginning of what I call the love progression model,

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which has four plateaus uh in this, in this, this

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progression toward love, their their acceptance, forgiveness, gratitude, and love,

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and then four obstacles, each of which has to be

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overcome to reach that plateau. So we reach We reach

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acceptance by overcoming suffering, we reach forgiveness by overcoming resentment,

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gratitude by overcoming judgment, and love by overcoming what I

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call incarceration. So I integrated a lot of the latest

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psychological research, a lot of stories, people that I'd coached

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or known, some of my own, my own life's work

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in these areas I mean, ranging from acceptance to to love,

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and I'm well, I really I really enjoyed it because

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I felt I felt like so many of us are

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struggling to form what I call CMSRS Compassionate meaningful sustainable

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relationships with other people today, and so that's what I

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really wanted to make a contribution around and really wanted

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to help in the in in that area because I actually,

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right now, along with Sarah Wright and New Zealand, she

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and I are the leading researchers in the world around

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loneliness and organizations, loneliness and leadership. And I see so

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many people lonely today and I just want to do

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something about that, probably because I felt lonely at different

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times in my life and it's not a great feeling.

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And I want people to have more meaningful relationships in

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their lives. Well.

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And it's interesting, and that's what we're going to talk

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about today a little bit more is you know, the

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rest of that process of love but also loneliness and

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helping ourselves and others to learn how to become But

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you know, it's interesting. I saw on a Facebook post

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months ago a couple of people who were complaining about

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they were so lonely and they didn't know what to

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do and so forth, and this whole concept of loneliness

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versus solitude, and it's just a matter of mindset. You know,

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you can either be lonely or you can experience the

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value of solitude, at least in my mind, but I

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know it goes a lot deeper than that, and you're

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the expert on it, so I want to talk about that,

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but also I want you to kind of go beyond

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the suffering part of it and talk about love. My

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one of my daughters in law sent me a message

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and said, hey, could you She's in a sociology class

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getting her degree and they're talking about love, and so

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her question is can. She had about four or five

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questions about love, And as she was asking the questions,

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I'm thinking, you know what, in America, in the English language,

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we only have the word love, and yet if you

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look at the Greek aspect to it, all of a sudden,

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you've got what four to five even more, but four

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to five main ones, and they're different. You know, you've

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got the love for a friend or a family member,

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You've got the love for a spouse, You've got that

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erotic love. You've got all these different types of loves.

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And it's interesting to me that people are seeking love,

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but I'm not sure that they're able to oftentimes die,

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you know, define what's the type of love that they're

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looking for? What's the type of love they're experiencing and

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could be grateful for, and then what are those other

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types of love that they're missing and how could they

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achieve that? So that's my verbiage. You go on this

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now for whatever what can you do on that?

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Well? I really appreciate what you just shared, Doug about

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about looking at kind of the not just loneliness, but

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the positive side of it. When we don't feel lonely,

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it tends to be because we have love in our

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lives and we recognize that love. And just as there

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are different types of love, you know, emanating from ancient Greece,

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there are also different types of lonliness is which we've discovered.

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So first, let let's talk about the difference between lowliness

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and solitude. You already hit on it pretty well. I'll

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just go and share a little bit more and say

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that think of it this way. There's actually being alone,

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like if you're physically alone, if you're being in a

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room alone tonight, you're physically isolated at night, right, So

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that would be that would be that would be what

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we call what we call objective isolation. Loneliness and solitude

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are different, and that they are subjective isolation. It's not

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being alone, it's feeling alone. And and the difference between

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loneliness and solitude is do you experience a negative or

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positive emotion associated with being alone? So the way I

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like to I like to say it, and in my research,

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the way I tend to put it is that loneliness

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is a negative, distressing emotion associated with being alone. Solitude

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is a positive, strengthening emotion associated with being alone. So

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just as you know, we have that that that common

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proverb that you know, one person's trash is another person's treasure,

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and being alone for some people that's there, that's true,

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that's their trash, that's the relationship that they with themselves

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that they don't feel comfortable with others, that's their treasure.

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Being alone is this wonderful experience. And I think, and

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this doesn't get said enough or written about enough, and

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it's just one thing I'm trying to change is that

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when you hear people say, oh I love being alone,

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I want to say to them, Okay, that's great. Why

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don't you go spend a month alone and then let's

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keep talking about this. And so being alone is wonderful

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as long as you like enjoying being alone, is great

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as long as you have someone to tell that you

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enjoy being alone. If you're alone and you don't have

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anyone to share it with, then you can very quickly

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become lonely. So I think it's this, it's this balance

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of togetherness and separateness that we all as human beings need.

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So if we have too much separateness, too much aloneness,

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we feel I mean, that leads to a lot of

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mental illnesses. In fact, that that's why solitary confinement in

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many prison systems is not considered a form of rehabilitation.

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It's the opposite where actually people end up often having

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like irrevocable mental difficulties after extended periods of solitary confinement.

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Now let's take the other togetherness. Too much togetherness can

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also be challenging for people because it's kind of like

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their actions or they're interacting with people all day long,

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but their thoughts and feelings they're not processing processing them sufficiently,

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so they kind of start to feel out of sources.

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They've discombobulated, they feel like unaligned, they feel that they're

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interacting with the wrong people. That's why some of the

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loneliest people are in a crowd. So it's not loneliness. Again,

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it's not being alone. It's feeling alone. And if you're

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in a crowd of people with whom you don't feel

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values aligned, you don't feel values congruent, that can be

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some of the worst loneliness ever. I was just having

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a conversation last week with someone sharing with me that

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is just very very poignant and sad that they feel

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so so so lonely sleeping next to their spouse, and

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that's you know, so that can be some of the

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worst kinds of loneliness. That's why in my wife is

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from Mexico, and there's a saying in mexicoch is major

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solo camlo companiello, which means it's it's it's better to

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be alone than poorly accompanied.

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Well, and you know, as you're talking about that, we're

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really talking about in the emotion. As you say, there's

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a physical being alone, and then there's the emotion. And

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one of the questions I have that just came to

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my mind because I get very involved in behavioral analysis

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and one of the one of the tools that I

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use is a very highbred disc personality test a d

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I S, and and what I find, for instance, I'm

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very much left brain di I, which is an introvert extrovert,

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and what I find is there are times that I

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have to have that quiet aloneness to be able to

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just survive. So, you know, I can be in a

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busy thing and it's like, you know what, I've got

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to go into my office and just be alone for

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a while, just be quiet, and that really helps. Whereas

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I think when you have people who are more on

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the other opposite side of that, as you say they

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need to be with people, they need to be with people.

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Have you looked at.

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Personalities at all as to which ones tend to experience

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that challenge of aloneness emotionally more than others or is

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it pretty much across the board from what you see.

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Well, in fact, one of the big five personality traits

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is agreeableness, and agreeableness is about wanting to feel a

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sense of harmony with others, harmony in the group. And

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there's actually a really interesting study by one of my leagues,

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Heaven von Cleief at the University of Amsterdam, and what

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he found is that angry leaders tend to do to

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do just fine with subordinates who are low in agreeableness.

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So in other words, they for them, it's not so

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important about getting along with the leader and the harmony

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in the relationship. It's about other things. In fact, I'll

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give you an example of this. I was coaching an

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engineer who worked under Steve Jobs at Apple, and this

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engineer told me that after six years of working with Steve,

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Steve Jobs came into his kind of cubicles, kind of

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an open office environment at Apple when he was working there.

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And you know, you know, Apple has what they call

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this sort of one what Google is called Innovation Time Off.

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It's similar at Apple, but it's one day per week

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where their engineers can work on whatever they want. At Google,

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that's how Gmail and Google Earth were created, so at

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least to a lot of innovation, and similarly at Apple,

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and Jobs came up to him in front of a

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lot of people, looked at what he was working on

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and said and said this is horrible. Stop working on it,

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and then walked away. And he worked for Steve for

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another six years. So I asked him, well, why did

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you stay there? Why did you stay at Apple after

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being publicly humiliated like that? And he looked at me

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and he said, I got to tell you, Steve was

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never the most kind of emotionally intelligent person. He wasn't

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always great with people, But there's no one in the

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industry I could have learned more from than him. And

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so some people are really looking to their leader to

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learn from them and to feel like they're growing in

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their career. Intellectually, that's more of a cognitive pathway to

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the leader, whereas other direct reports of leaders, our team

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members are looking more for that emotional connection. And so similarly,

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in relationships, there are some people who can spend much

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more time alone than others and they don't feel lonely,

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and then other people who they are alone for ten

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minutes and they feel lonely. So you're right, it depends

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on that. Of course, it also depends on extraversion and

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other Big five personality trait where some people really prefer

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to be around others a lot. Some people are more

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the introverts prefer to be alone. Although it's interesting is

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that there's been some recent research in psychology about how

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extraversion introversion that distinction is kind of kind of overinflated,

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that there's actually there's Actually what's more important for a

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lot of people is autonomy. Some people like to feel

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a sense of independence and autonomy, whereas others that's not

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so important to them. And they found that actually, you

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can have sometimes sometimes extroverts when you know that extroverts

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being being around people, can be around people but still

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can feel there's there's there's a lot of meaningfulness in

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their lives, whereas introverts sometimes by staying away from people,

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they're not actually doing that always because they don't want

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to be around people. Often it's because they feel social anxiety,

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they feel uncomfortable to go and approach people. And and

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actually some of these recent studies have found that when

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you do like a psychological intervention in you, and you

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start rewarding people for going out and interacting with others.

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For example, one of my one of my colleagues, Juliana

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Schroeder at Berkeley, she's she's run these studies where you

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go on you go on like the Chicago Metro or

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the London Tube, and you ask people, Hey, would you

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rather write alone or would you rather talk with someone

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you don't know? Oh, I'd rather write alone. Actually introverts, right,

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And then you say would you enjoy the ride if

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you were talking with someone else or riding alone? Or

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I'd enjoy it more alone? Would you learn more? Which

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way alone? I can be on my phone? And then

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they offer people a Starbucks gift card and say, well, okay,

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we'd like you to talk with someone you don't know

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on the ride and then fill out this survey send

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it to us. And so people do this, and across

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the board, people tend to enjoy the ride more, learn

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more if they're talking with a complete stranger than riding alone.

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And even introverts, it's just the introverts it takes. It's

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like more of a threshold they have to overcome to

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be able to get themselves to approach someone. But we

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all need human connection. I think that's probably the greatest

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driver for me in all the work I do, is

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this need we all have for social connection, for meaningful relationships.

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Let's talk about that inner imprint, those subconscious imprints that

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we have experienced from childhood on that are affecting that

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sense of loneliness versus solitude. And what have you found

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are some of the major ones, And how do you

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help people to ultimately push those And I don't say overcome,

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because I'm not sure we ever really do that, but

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to push those to the side and develop a new

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processing within the brain and the neurological system to where

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they start to eliminate those imprints and thus are able

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to experience a greater sense of friendship and lack of loneliness.

292
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Well, I don't think that anyone really eliminates the imprinting

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that they've experienced. I don't very you either, right, But

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I think what some people are able to do is

295
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to acknowledge it, and acknowledge it, embrace it, accept it.

296
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That's really the first plateau of love and suffering. So

297
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accept the trauma, the challenging experiences they've had, and by

298
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accepting it, it's like that now they're no longer fighting

299
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this internal battle with their memories. They're accepting, embracing what

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they've experienced, and then from that they're really more in

301
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a place where they're poised for growth. And so, you know,

302
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there's a saying like once bitten twice shy. I think

303
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for many people with trauma, it's once bitten a lifetime shy.

304
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And so that's where the lonliness comes in. A lot

305
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of people don't pursue relationships because they're scared, and so

306
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that's why you know, calling it introversion. I think is

307
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often a mistake. It's often that people have had negative experiences,

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especially with people they really counted on. I mean, when

309
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you're when you're a baby, you're a toddler, even a

310
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young child like you cannot survive without without caretaker or caretakers.

311
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You need other human beings the other to look out

312
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for you, or you just won't make it. And so

313
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a lot of children often subconsciously compelled to accept and

314
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not just accept, but but embrace really dysfunctional characteristics qualities

315
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in their parents, in their caretakers, because they need them

316
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in order to survive in life. And so they start

317
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they grow up with this sense, Okay, well people can

318
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be really cold and heartless and callous, but that's those

319
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are the people. That's what people are like, because that's

320
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what I've experienced. And so I have to learn to

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subordinate what I really feel because every time I share it,

322
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I get cut down. And they grow up like that,

323
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and then it's just the loneliness comes in because Okay,

324
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that's what people are like, and so I guess I

325
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don't want to be around them so much. And and

326
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and I think that creates a lot of the dysfunctional personality,

327
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you know, and personality behaviors that creep in. And so

328
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it's really it's really being able to say to yourself, okay,

329
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like I'm not going to avoid what I've experienced. In fact,

330
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if you look at like Freudian analysis, if you look

331
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at psychopathologies, most of them are based on what's called

332
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experiential avoidance, like avoiding thes, the emotions, the real conditions

333
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that your life has been. And and so I think

334
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acceptance is about saying, Okay, I'm not going to avoid

335
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what I've experienced. I'm going to It's kind of like

336
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what roomy the the the Afghan poet once wrote, which

337
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is your wound is where the light enters you. It's like,

338
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here's the room, here's here's the wound.

339
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Sorry, And I'm going to accept that this is the

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wound that I that I have inside me, and slowly

341
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the light starts to enter and it actually can become

342
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your superpower.

343
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You know, I'll say, I'll see you in my own

344
00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:02.359
ext like why why why am I here talking with you?

345
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Why why am I writing books? Why am I coaching

346
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teaching leaders and and and the other work that I'm doing.

347
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It's it's because of the wounds that I've experienced it

348
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is because I know what it feels like growing up.

349
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I know what it feels like to feel a sense

350
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of powerlessness, to feel a sense of of not not

351
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:25.799
having a lot of agency in my own life, and

352
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I don't want that for myself or anyone else, So

353
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that that produces my passion for how I want to

354
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contribute to the world to help others.

355
00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:36.440
Well, and I think you've really hit on a key point.

356
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And as I've talked to hundreds of people about this

357
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on the podcast, what really has hit me, and I

358
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.079
think you've just hid it really hard, is the fact

359
00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:51.720
that you know, there's the saying that which we resist persists,

360
00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:55.920
and you know the fact that if we resist those things,

361
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it's going to continue to persist. But if we can

362
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accept it, understand it, even discover some gratitude for what

363
00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:06.880
that has created in a positive way for our lives.

364
00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:09.640
As you said, for you and I've experienced the same thing,

365
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:13.799
it it's amazing how that changes our whole approach to

366
00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:17.720
life and our experience in life when we can accept it,

367
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acknowledge it, and then continue to use it as a

368
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basis of moving forward in a positive way.

369
00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:28.119
Well, you're you're absolutely right, Doug, and let's let's let's

370
00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:30.839
let's let's take a deep dive into that that that

371
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:34.000
which we resist persists, as you shared. So why why

372
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does that happen? I think there's well, first of all,

373
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we resist what we tend to be afraid of, Yeah,

374
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and fear. When we think about about fear, I always

375
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:49.640
like the the metaphor for fear of barking dogs, that like,

376
00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:52.359
you have these barking dogs that if you run from them,

377
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you know, it's the animal impulse, the chase impulse. They're

378
00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:57.240
going to chase you, and you'll spend your whole life

379
00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:01.440
running from them, whereas if you face them, they'll they'll

380
00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:05.000
if you're well, depends on the dog. But you know,

381
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:06.680
but you have to know when to do this, when

382
00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:09.119
not to do this, then the dog's gonna gonna leave

383
00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:11.440
you alone. And I think fear is like that, is

384
00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:13.920
that we spend our whole life running from fear rather

385
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:17.839
than confronting it, and and and and and even the

386
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:21.880
way the way what we've been told growing up and

387
00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:25.720
even as adults, about how we should see forgiveness, how

388
00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:29.079
we should how we should how we should see forgiveness

389
00:23:29.319 --> 00:23:32.279
love as you shared that a lot of it is

390
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:36.599
just not not it just doesn't work. So, for example, forgiveness.

391
00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:40.839
You know, there's a number of theologians and psychologists that

392
00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:44.680
would call forgiveness the highest form of love, and I

393
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:47.680
just don't agree with that. You know, forgiveness is so

394
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:51.160
so let's suppost someone says to you, Hey, you've really

395
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:55.200
hurt me. I've really had a difficult time from what

396
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:57.599
I've gone through with you. I want you to know

397
00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.799
that I forgive you. Like I don't know about you, Doug,

398
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:02.640
but I don't want anyone saying that to me.

399
00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:04.920
Oh that that just hits me the wrong way.

400
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:10.079
Yeah, So, so forgiveness is a power play. It's actually, hey,

401
00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:14.519
I hold propriety over what's right and wrong. I have

402
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.359
this moral rectitu that you do not, and I forgive

403
00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:21.680
you for not having that. And and I think what's

404
00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:24.680
what's what's wrong with that is that it's it can

405
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:28.039
be paternalistic, patronizing. It's like, oh, I forgive you, I

406
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:31.119
forgive you for what you did, Whereas whereas it's very

407
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:34.440
different to say to someone I'm grateful to you for

408
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:38.759
what happened, even even if it wasn't so positive, even

409
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:41.960
if something in the interaction like it led, you felt betrayed,

410
00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:45.160
you felt cheated on, you felt hurt, you felt the

411
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:50.519
other person was insensitive. That gratitude is very different. Gratitude

412
00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:53.880
is saying, hey, you know, I'm grateful that, instead of

413
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:59.119
staying home and and and letting that trauma inspired fear

414
00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:02.680
prevent me from going out into the world, I've gone out,

415
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:06.799
and I've tried relationships, and I've been hurt. But I'm

416
00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:10.000
grateful for those experiences because I learned from these people.

417
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:13.640
It's like Neil Donald Walsh and is in his book, Yeah,

418
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:16.200
I forget which book, it's not. Conversations with God is

419
00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:20.000
another book that he wrote where he has this example

420
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:24.519
of these two angels in heaven and one of the angels.

421
00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:27.359
One of the angels goes up to God and says, hey,

422
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:31.519
I'm here as a guardian angel to protect these human beings,

423
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:35.559
and I feel like I can't really do my job

424
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:38.960
because I've never suffered. I don't understand human suffering. I

425
00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:42.079
don't understand what they're going through. I'd like to go

426
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:44.279
down to Earth and experience what it is to suffer

427
00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:46.559
so I can do my job better, so I can

428
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:51.720
understand these human beings better. And God listens and says okay,

429
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:55.160
and then he turns to all these other angels that

430
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:58.480
are around him and he says, okay, here's the situation.

431
00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:01.680
We need an angel to go with this angel down

432
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:04.920
to earth and help him to experience suffering, and would

433
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:07.559
anyone be willing to do that? And another angel says, oh, yes,

434
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:10.799
I'll do that. And so the first angel goes to

435
00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:14.160
the second angel says and says, wow, like you're going

436
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:15.640
to do that for me? Why would you do that?

437
00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:18.680
And the second angel says, because I love you? And

438
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.680
I think what we need to understand about when others

439
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:26.319
hurt us, when others wrong us, sometimes in other ways

440
00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:30.240
that are unforeseen, they're actually writing us. They're helping us

441
00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:35.160
to understand an area of ourselves that's that's a dimension,

442
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:37.799
a part of who we are that's underdeveloped and helping

443
00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:41.079
us to develop it. So, you know, I shared this before,

444
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:44.200
but I think in a previous conversation, Doug, but I

445
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:48.400
think I think when I look back back on the

446
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:51.720
stepfather I had, who is physical, abusive. You know, man

447
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:53.680
comes into your home, beats you up, sleeps with your mother.

448
00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:55.839
You don't feel much of a person that low self

449
00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:58.039
esteem that I had when I you know, when I

450
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:02.880
was you know, like eight, ten eleven years old. When

451
00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:05.400
I think about that, it took me a long time

452
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:08.160
to not just forgive him, but to be grateful that

453
00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:11.200
he was in my life because I connect with the

454
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:14.160
suffering of others in ways I never would have without

455
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:17.759
having gone through that. And I know the way I think,

456
00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:20.480
I have a kind of a strategic way of thinking,

457
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:24.119
strategic mind. I really have this feeling that if I

458
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:27.960
hadn't gone through that, I right now would be on

459
00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:31.640
Wall Street driving a red convertible having my third affair

460
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:34.640
on my fourth wife, and I wouldn't know my children.

461
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:37.000
I'm just actually, I'm writing a book on leadership, and

462
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:41.720
I'm going through all these interviews with CEOs who who say, yeah,

463
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:44.319
I never I never knew my kids. It was just

464
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:46.519
I had to make a choice, and I chose to

465
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:50.000
be successful. And I am so grateful. That is not

466
00:27:50.359 --> 00:27:53.960
my experience that yeah, go ahead, better.

467
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:56.200
So you bring something interesting that comes to my mind

468
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:59.759
because as you were talking about forgiveness and gratitude for

469
00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:02.400
what happened, and I look at it from a slightly

470
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:05.839
different perspective and I'd love for you to to, you know,

471
00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:09.559
understand this part and then help me to understand how

472
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.000
you move to what I think you're talking about, which

473
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:15.400
is a higher level for me. When I have talked

474
00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:18.039
to people, I understand that, you know, one way to

475
00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:22.759
handle those traumatic events, whatever they happen to be, is to,

476
00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:27.000
rather than taking it upon yourself, recognizing that, you know what,

477
00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:32.640
that person has experienced something in their lives that has

478
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:37.640
caused them to behave this way, and therefore I can

479
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.119
appreciate the fact that I don't have to be angry,

480
00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:42.599
I don't have to blame them, because quite frankly, I

481
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:47.400
can experience some sense of grace that, you know what,

482
00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:51.240
I'm sorry for them that they have experienced this, that

483
00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:54.599
this is how they have to react. Now that's that's

484
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:59.160
more of a non emotional level, and yet you're raising

485
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:02.119
it to a higher life level where you know, you

486
00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:04.400
get to that point and then you move up to

487
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:07.519
And I want to be grateful because that experience in

488
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:09.319
me has helped me in this particular way.

489
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:11.319
How do people move up?

490
00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:13.920
I mean, originally, how do they move up to the

491
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:16.640
fact that, hey, I understand this has nothing to do

492
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:19.839
with me, It has everything to do I when when

493
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:22.039
my boys. I have one son that came back from

494
00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:24.559
a trip with boy Scouts and he was a he

495
00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:26.680
was one of the youth leaders and he had just

496
00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:31.720
been berated by the by the Scout leader. And as

497
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:34.279
I sat down with him, I said, look, here's the

498
00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:37.400
bottom line. This has nothing to do with you. This

499
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:40.160
has to do with the fact that you know he's

500
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:43.359
he's had these experiences in his life. These are the

501
00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:46.039
proficiency's had. And if you look at that, you're going

502
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:49.680
to see that he's on that emotion and emotional intelligence level.

503
00:29:50.119 --> 00:29:54.960
He is down in anger, frustration. That's where he's at.

504
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:59.359
And therefore what you're experiencing is his experience in that

505
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:02.799
And if you can recognize then that it has nothing

506
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:04.880
to do with you, has everything to do with him.

507
00:30:05.400 --> 00:30:07.279
And when we went through that, it made it made

508
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:09.839
a big difference for him. So how do you move

509
00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:15.319
from that perspective up to the perspective of appreciation and

510
00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:18.480
gratitude for those experiences, because that's to me, that's a

511
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:19.519
little bit more difficult.

512
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:23.200
Wow, this is you ask wonderful questions, Doug. I gotta say,

513
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:25.799
and I think the way you counseled your son was

514
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:31.400
just stellar. Really really, when someone like his scout leader

515
00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:36.079
is being judgmental toward us, it says much more about

516
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:38.720
their need to be judgmental than it says about us.

517
00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:41.400
And I think you instilled that in your son. I'm

518
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:44.519
sure he's never going to forget that. I think one

519
00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:46.599
thing I do is I do I do visualization with

520
00:30:46.680 --> 00:30:52.359
people where where you know, at my conferences and so forth.

521
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:56.000
And I asked them, I say, so, I want you

522
00:30:56.039 --> 00:31:01.039
to think back to the teacher in your life that

523
00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:06.359
most helped you, that most taught you what's really helping

524
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:09.119
you and to live your life today. So go back

525
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:11.680
to high school, go back to that dance troupe or

526
00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:17.319
sports field or or acting studio. And what I want

527
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:20.759
you to do is to imagine that you're back there,

528
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:23.640
and this is going to be your last interaction with

529
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:27.160
that teacher before you turn at the at the last

530
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:33.759
class or practice or competition or game or play, and

531
00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:37.319
you're you're about to turn and go and move on

532
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:39.799
with your life. And what you have the opportunity to

533
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:44.440
do in this visualization is turn back toward them and

534
00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:47.720
say something express what you'd like to share with them.

535
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.559
And I asked people so what would you like to

536
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:54.000
say to your greatest teacher? And what invariably people say

537
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:57.200
is I want to say thank you. And this is

538
00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:01.400
where the gratitude comes in, because sometimes the person who

539
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:04.799
has hurt us, even that Scout leader for your son,

540
00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:09.559
potentially is one of our greatest teachers. We learn from them.

541
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:13.319
Some people, the way I see it, Doug, is that

542
00:32:13.799 --> 00:32:17.960
people bring joy or and or learning into our lives.

543
00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:21.599
Some bring joy, some bring learning. You know, So the

544
00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:25.599
people who bring joy, it's an opportunity to reinforce what

545
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:28.680
we already value. It's an opportunity to say, Okay, this

546
00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:30.839
is my vision for how I want to live my life.

547
00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:34.160
I'm experiencing joy from connecting with this person as part

548
00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:37.599
of this vision, and keep on moving forward. Some people

549
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:42.000
bring learning where it's like, Okay, there's something in me

550
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:44.759
that's not quite right here that I need to develop

551
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:48.839
from what I'm experiencing from this person. Instead of being

552
00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:51.759
an opportunity to live my values in life vision, this

553
00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:55.079
is an opportunity to refine my values in life vision.

554
00:32:55.079 --> 00:32:57.839
There's something I want to change because of what I've

555
00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:00.359
learned from this person, and maybe a negative exam but

556
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:04.720
it's still learning, and it's kind of like gratitude that

557
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:08.079
this person has come into your life as an interaction

558
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:12.480
partner to help you access this learning. And so I

559
00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:16.839
think where we can be we can be grateful for

560
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:19.799
people who bring joy into our lives. We can also

561
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:23.880
be grateful for people who bring in learning, and as

562
00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:26.759
we can be and as you said, we can also

563
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:30.680
offer a measure of grace that you know, given this person.

564
00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:36.359
Let's take the Scout leader, given the social psychological and

565
00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:39.839
emotional like the emotional intelligence you mentioned, given the social

566
00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:44.240
psychological emotional resources that he had at that moment in time,

567
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:48.799
that was what he could do and what your son

568
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:53.680
can realize. Given the social emotional psychological resources that that

569
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:56.559
I have right now, I wouldn't act the way he

570
00:33:56.599 --> 00:33:59.880
did at all. I would act very differently and may

571
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:03.559
at some point in time that Scout leader may go

572
00:34:03.640 --> 00:34:08.840
through some therapy, some personal development, and he also may

573
00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:12.960
have social emotional psychological resources later in his life that

574
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:16.400
he didn't have at that moment where he acted so horribly.

575
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:21.280
And so in many ways, what we're seeing is judgment

576
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:26.000
is this massive disconnect. It's a temporal disconnect because you're

577
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:30.320
judging another person today for what they did yesterday, which

578
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:32.800
is a difference in time, maybe they would act differently today.

579
00:34:33.159 --> 00:34:36.760
And then it's also a values disconnect. You're using your

580
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:42.800
values to judge their actions rather than letting them judge

581
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.880
their own actions from with their own values. And I

582
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:49.400
think what often happens is that people become disconnected from themselves.

583
00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:54.440
Probably that Scout leader was so busy and so resentful

584
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:57.719
that he didn't get something he really wanted from his

585
00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:01.719
wife or that others society. You're not awarding him for

586
00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:04.039
all the what he considers to be the great work

587
00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:08.960
he's doing, whatever it is, that frustration kind of mounts,

588
00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:12.679
and then it can, it can just the floodgates open

589
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:14.599
and it spills out.

590
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:17.599
Let me interrupt you there for a minute, because here's

591
00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:22.519
what's interesting. I think when my son experienced that understanding,

592
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:28.159
rather than develop a resentment towards that Scout leader, it

593
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:33.960
just became an understanding. And fifteen years later, eighteen years later,

594
00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:38.360
they are still good friends. They stay connected. That Scout

595
00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:42.519
leader is still one of his mentors. And it's interesting

596
00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:46.119
that that occurred because he was able to avoid the

597
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:49.800
resentment by understanding again that it had nothing to do

598
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:52.519
with him necessarily, maybe he needed to learn some things. Yeah,

599
00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:55.280
you're absolutely right there, But the main point was that

600
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:58.559
it was something that the Scout leader was experiencing, either

601
00:35:58.599 --> 00:36:01.719
at that moment or another times that had caused him

602
00:36:01.719 --> 00:36:04.719
to be that way. And with that understanding, it allowed

603
00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:07.960
my son to remain connected to him.

604
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.960
Well, that's a beautiful story. And what your son did,

605
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:17.119
I'm speculating is that he practiced one of the strategies

606
00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:21.039
in love and suffering around forgiveness, which is to forgive

607
00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:24.599
is to give for. To forgive is to give for.

608
00:36:25.159 --> 00:36:28.880
So when you forgive someone, you're giving for them to

609
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:32.599
yourself what they themselves couldn't at that point in time give.

610
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:36.239
And so instead of saying, okay, what most people do

611
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:39.599
today is that with this massive polarization we're having in

612
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:43.760
the US and worldwide and where people's not even talking

613
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:47.760
to others with different views politically or you know, and

614
00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:53.599
so forth, to forgive is to give for is saying, Okay,

615
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:56.960
I wanted something from this person they couldn't give to me,

616
00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:00.400
and so I'm going to give for them to myself,

617
00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:03.800
knowing that at that point in time they couldn't do that.

618
00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:07.679
And so instead of using and and and invoking what

619
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:10.920
I call enemy images like Okay, this person's the enemy,

620
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.599
they're bad, I'm good. This sort of dualism, it's more

621
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:16.280
of this sort of what we see in a lot

622
00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:21.039
of Eastern forms of spirituality, this non dualism, like we're

623
00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:24.599
all connected, and just as he had a bad day,

624
00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:27.400
well I have bad days too. In fact, one of

625
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:30.639
the exercises in love and suffering around forgiveness is I

626
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:33.320
ask the reader, and I'll ask your listeners here to

627
00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:36.760
think of a person in your life you've never been

628
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:39.840
able to forgive, Like, try to try to imagine that

629
00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:45.760
person and write down all the behaviors that they that

630
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:48.559
they took, or that they they acted out, all of

631
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:52.039
their actions that you've had trouble forgiving. So just write

632
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:55.400
them out, one after the other. Then that's going to

633
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:58.000
be the first column, and the second column write down

634
00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:02.679
what character quality is associated with each of those behaviors. So,

635
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:06.000
for example, for your son Douget, maybe the behavior was well, well,

636
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:10.519
screaming at at at at me unnecessarily and then okay,

637
00:38:10.519 --> 00:38:13.519
so at you know, at that at that scout meeting.

638
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:17.480
So then what's the character quality associated with that? Well,

639
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:21.880
that could be insensitivity. It could be insecurity, it could

640
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:25.599
be callousness. Uh, and and and you know, lack of

641
00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:28.719
empathy and so forth. And then that's so. That's so

642
00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:31.400
the first column, the behavior is the second column the

643
00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:35.000
character qualities associated with the behaviors. The third quality. The

644
00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:40.320
third column. Now is who in my own life do

645
00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:42.480
I know that at some point in my life would

646
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:46.480
attribute those that same character quality to me? And this

647
00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:49.719
is this is the sort of the showstopper. It's wait

648
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:54.239
a second, Okay, so insensitivity? When have I been insensitive?

649
00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:56.960
And so I I did this myself. I I I

650
00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:00.599
thought about my ex stepfather, and I think out about,

651
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:03.119
you know, you know, when he would beat up on me,

652
00:39:03.159 --> 00:39:05.599
and how and the and how insensitive he was being.

653
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:08.079
When have I been insensitive? When have I been callous?

654
00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:11.480
When have I even been aggressive? Right like that, like unnecessarily?

655
00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:14.440
And I think about times where I've I've heard others

656
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:17.039
when I was a kid even later where I could

657
00:39:17.079 --> 00:39:19.440
have been more sensitive. And what this does is is

658
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:23.360
it builds this connection between ourselves and the other person.

659
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:26.960
And at the same time, there's another piece of conventional

660
00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:29.760
wisdom again that I think that really doesn't make much sense.

661
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:33.320
Which is forgive and forget. We're told forgive and forget.

662
00:39:33.800 --> 00:39:36.320
And what I tell people and what I write about

663
00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:39.840
in Love and Suffering is forgive and remember. Now, I

664
00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:42.800
don't mean remember like every Saturday night, you know, put

665
00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:45.119
a sticky you know, put one hundred sticky notes around

666
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:47.880
your house reminding you what this person did every Saturday night.

667
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:50.800
Go through it again. No, But I mean that each

668
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:53.360
person is like a file and a file countenant, and

669
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:56.760
in that file you want to put like, Okay, well

670
00:39:56.800 --> 00:39:58.360
what is it I got to look out for with

671
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:00.760
this person? And also what are I really enjoy about

672
00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:03.119
this person? And keep that in your mind, and and

673
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:06.480
so you don't kind of trip over the same wire again.

674
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:10.440
So so I don't I don't think anyone would think

675
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:13.039
it's good advice that if if you walk home at

676
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:15.440
night and fall into a ditch, if someone were to

677
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:18.760
advise you, okay, forget the location of the ditch. No,

678
00:40:18.920 --> 00:40:21.400
you want to know where that ditch is. But but again,

679
00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:26.280
what we're doing is we're not collapsing all the character

680
00:40:26.360 --> 00:40:30.320
qualities of this holistic human being into this one quality

681
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:32.760
or there's these these there's one or a few behaviors

682
00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:35.239
they did that you didn't like, But instead we're seeing

683
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:38.800
that just as I to forgive myself, I have to

684
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:42.480
accept the entirety of all the character qualities that I contain.

685
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:46.360
It's like, well, Whitman right, I'm I'm large, I contain multitudes. Well,

686
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:48.840
so does everyone else contain multitudes, and we need to

687
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:52.039
grant them that grace, as you put it, Doug, well,

688
00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:52.760
and I love that.

689
00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:55.519
And so as we as we come to a close,

690
00:40:55.639 --> 00:40:59.559
what what would be how how would you put everything

691
00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:03.960
together in a little short comment that you could share

692
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:07.440
with the people that might get them to think a

693
00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:09.239
little bit differently for themselves.

694
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:11.800
I think my comment would be two words, which is

695
00:41:12.199 --> 00:41:16.159
just connect, Like find people, like in that study on

696
00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:18.480
the on the on the metro or the London Tube.

697
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:22.000
When someone looks like they could be an interesting person

698
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:25.519
and you feel safe approaching them, go and do it.

699
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:30.480
You know, we need to break through the social barriers,

700
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:35.760
the invisible social barriers that we create, because connection is everything,

701
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:38.880
you know. I think about I think about one time

702
00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:41.199
I was in a department store, and I was in

703
00:41:41.239 --> 00:41:46.039
the restaurant in the department store, and this girl went

704
00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:50.519
through this door to the little sort of child playground,

705
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:55.079
children's playground they had right off the restaurant. And when

706
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:58.199
she came back through the door, her arm got wedged

707
00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:03.559
into the door, like between the between the glass door

708
00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:06.519
and the hinge, and it was literally like her arm

709
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:09.159
was turning blue. I thought her arm was gonna was

710
00:42:09.199 --> 00:42:12.079
she was gonna lose her arm. And I saw this happening,

711
00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:15.679
and I pretty much started screaming. I was like, I

712
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:19.239
was like, okay, we need we need anyone here know

713
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:23.679
how to unhinge this door. Anybody here with construction experience

714
00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:28.199
or and so forth. And and then we got this

715
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:30.280
guy who was working on He was up at the

716
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:35.559
top trying to trying to unscrew the bolts of the door,

717
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:39.320
and in the meantime, her father she's on one side

718
00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:40.960
of the door, and her father's on the other side,

719
00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:44.239
and she's just kind of seeing him through this glass,

720
00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:46.639
but she can't really hear him. And I go around

721
00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:47.960
to her side of the door and I just started

722
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.760
talking with her and saying, hey, you're strong, You're gonna

723
00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:53.079
be fine. We almost have this off. In the meantime,

724
00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:57.000
I'm telling the guy like and there's like seven guys

725
00:42:57.039 --> 00:42:59.360
now holding different parts of the door you guys were

726
00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:02.000
gonna have to take the door off very slowly. Otherwise

727
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:04.960
it actually it could be it could be very dangerous

728
00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:06.440
for her. So we have take it off very slowly.

729
00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:09.000
Once he has it ready with the balts off, and

730
00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:12.360
so this all takes about about four or five minutes. Finally,

731
00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:18.519
this brilliant guy who was able to unscrew the bolts

732
00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:20.159
on the door, which I never would have been able

733
00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:24.679
to do, he pulls it off and she's, you know,

734
00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:27.719
and she her arm. She it saves her arm. Okay,

735
00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:31.000
And I'm with my wife. My wife's a psychologist, and

736
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:34.400
we're driving home and she tells me, she says, that

737
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:37.960
girl will never be able to forget you because you

738
00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:40.360
were over there right next to her talking or talking

739
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:44.039
her through this. And and this is the thing about trauma.

740
00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:48.000
We can't just transcend our trauma alone. We need other people.

741
00:43:48.440 --> 00:43:51.440
It's the connections we have with others that enables us

742
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:55.920
to move through the trauma that we've experienced. So I

743
00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:59.480
would say, just connect, and I'll i'll and I'll say

744
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:02.960
to your to your listeners, I would love it if

745
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:05.719
you bought a copy of my book, Love and Suffering.

746
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:09.400
It's available on Amazon or wherever books are sold. Now,

747
00:44:09.559 --> 00:44:11.880
if buying a book's not top of mind for you

748
00:44:11.960 --> 00:44:14.840
right now, I know times are very difficult. Don't worry.

749
00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:17.679
I've got two free books for you there, The Myth

750
00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:21.639
of Happiness, How your definition of happiness creates your unhappiness

751
00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:25.199
and the Myth of Friendship, How your misunderstanding is about

752
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:28.599
friendship Keep you Lonely? And both books you can download

753
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:32.679
them you just go to the Art of Livingfree dot

754
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:37.880
org slash Free Happiness and Friendship Books once again, the

755
00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:42.760
Art of Livingfree dot org slash Free Happiness and Friendship Books.

756
00:44:43.079 --> 00:44:44.880
We thank you for having me on your show, Doug.

757
00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:48.119
I really love our conversations. I appreciate you inviting me

758
00:44:48.199 --> 00:44:50.559
back on. Oh I do too. Thank you so much.

759
00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:51.719
I really appreciate it.

760
00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:53.679
And folks, I hope you've gained a lot from this,

761
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:56.480
because quite frankly, I have. I find that the more

762
00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:58.519
I get a chance to talk to folks like you, Tony,

763
00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:01.679
I learned so much more in my life. It's just amazing.

764
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:05.119
So thank you, folks, thanks for listening. Hope you enjoy it,

765
00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:06.599
and I hope you join.

766
00:45:06.519 --> 00:45:10.000
Us again soon. There is doctor Duck saying, Noma, stay