Jan. 12, 2026

The Skills You Never Learned for the Marriage You Always Wanted – with Raffi Bilek

The Skills You Never Learned for the Marriage You Always Wanted – with Raffi Bilek
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Dr. Doug sits down with therapist and author Raffi Bilek to explore practical tools for better communication in relationships. From his book The Couple’s Communication Handbook, Raffi shares strategies like taking timeouts, listening with empathy, and speaking to be heard—skills that can transform marriages, families, and even communities. www.thecommunicationbook.com

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WEBVTT

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,

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legal counseling, professional service, or any advice.

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You should seek the services.

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Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.

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At the end of the day, it's not about what

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you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what

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you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,

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who you've made better. It's about what you've given back.

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Denzel Washington, welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is

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to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you

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to do the same.

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Raffi, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much.

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Hey, you know, your background is really interesting because it

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seems like, as I've interviewed a number of people, you know,

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here's where they went with their education, here's the direction

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they're going, and all of a sudden, they've made a

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major switch and they're doing something much different. And it

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looks to me like that's kind of the case for

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you too, So could you share with the audience your

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background number one and number two what brought you to

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this point of writing your book and you can, you know,

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talk about that a bit and then what you're doing

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now and helping people with communication.

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So I take it you are alluding to my nerd background. Yes,

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I was a computer science major and now I talk

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to people. And the truth is I was always a

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people person. I just didn't realize it. So, you know,

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I do like computers, and I do like programming, and

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I still do some of that. I actually have souped

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up my own electronic health record system with some of

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my programming skills. But it just wasn't the same trying to,

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you know, talk to a computer and talk to people.

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And after college, I did a job where I talk

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computers to kids, and the job was talking to people

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instead of the talking to people being between the jobs.

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I was like, Wow, this is so much better. So

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I sort of switched tax and went into human services,

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and I just I felt much better about it. I

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eventually got a social work degree, started doing therapy, working

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with people, and then found that I really resonate working

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with couples and trying to help people get some happiness

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in their lives that way and then just suited me

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really well. So that's how I got to where I am.

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But you know, it's fascinating to me. I'm certified as

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a behavioral analyst in many of the things that I do,

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And what fascinates me is somehow we're kind of influenced

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or motivated to do a certain degree or do a

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certain thing, and we get there and if it doesn't

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match our personality, then all of a sudden, we find

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ourselves really frustrated. And you know, in your case, my

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daughter had the same thing happened to her. She went

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into but she went into research social work, and you know,

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all of a sudden she recognized that, you know what,

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this is not what I want. I want to be

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with people because she was, you know, as you are

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a little bit more in that direction. And so it's

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fascinating how people start in one direction and if they

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really start to become aware of how they're feeling about it,

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they move into a different direction. So you wrote a book,

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Tell me a little bit about the book, the name

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of the book, and so forth.

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So it's called The Couple's Communication Handbook. The skills you

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never learned for the marriage you always wanted. And I

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really just felt like a lot of the people that

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I've worked with just don't know what to do or

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how to do it to connect with their spouse or

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their partner. And I really felt like that's such an

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important thing for people to have. You know, there's this

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great long term study, the Harvard Graham Study, which was

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really amazing, you know, the biggest longitudinal study ever done,

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and the head of the study said, the biggest thing

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that we took from that is that happiness comes from

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good relationships. And I feel like to help people live

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their best lives. Helping them get their relationships dialed in,

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which means being able to talk to somebody else, connect

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with them, communicate with them, was so important. And through

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my work with couples, I really found a way that

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I think resonates with a lot of people and is

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very actionable and doable. And I just felt so so

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good to help people get that. I really wanted to

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spread the message further than I could do on my

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own self, and so getting this book out there as

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part of that mission to really help people live their

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best lives in that way well and you know.

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You talk about communication conversations at this point in time

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in the US as a brigand nightmare.

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Nightmare. You know, I wrote an article some time ago,

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before the current political era about a marriage counselor trying

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to deal with the gun control debate, which you know,

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was with a hot topic at the time, trying to

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bring some of these skills to the broader world. And

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in the at the end of my book, I talk

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about expanding beyond just the couple of the diad to

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go out to the world with a sense of you know, connecting, empathy, communication,

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and I agree that these skills could make a real

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difference beyond just you know, one person to one person,

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but to groups and to the world at large. I really,

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you know, I just want to make the world a

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better place man.

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You know, So what happened, I mean, you know, as

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you say before, a lot of this stuff going on.

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What happened and what has happened to this communication and conversation.

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I mean, it's to the point now where it's so

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separate and so angry, it's just amazing. Yeah.

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You know, I am not qualified to commentate politically on

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where we're at, but I think, you know, that has

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affected couples and families as well. I've seen so many

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people really get their families get torn apart by political differences,

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and I think that the skills of communication and empathy

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and validation could go a long way towards helping people

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bridge that. You know, I don't have to agree with you,

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No two people agree on everything, But to be able

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to connect and to hear somebody else's perspective and accept

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it as where they're at can make such a difference

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for people trying to bridge that gap of political, religious

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identity divides. It can really help people reconnect in that way.

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Oh amen to that. Okay, so kind of reiterate what

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you just said a little bit for the audience again.

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Sure, that's a good question. What did I just say.

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Were we talking about reconnecting families?

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I think, well, we were really talking about the political

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state right now of what's going on and the lack

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of communication or the lack of the ability to communicate

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and have a reasonable conversation.

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And you know what I find which is fascinating is

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anything that applies to couples to families also applies generally

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to the world, to business, to all of that type

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of stuff, And so I guess my question was, what

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what brought about this great divide? What what do you

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think brought that about? From the time that you had

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written a little bit about gun control and that type

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of stuff.

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To this, It's hard to say. It's a lot of

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different things. You know, again, I am no political analyst.

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I'm just an armchair politician like the rest of the country.

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And it's painful. Yeah, how we got here. I think

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it's just so easy to stay in your own mind

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and your own self and not think about where others

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are coming from. You know, why they believe what they believe,

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why they feel what they feel, and if we were

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better at reaching out and saying, well, help me understand

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where you're coming from and why you feel that way.

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In my book about how that's for me, the three

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most important words in the marriage, help me understand if

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I can come from a help me understand perspective like, Okay,

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you did this, you know you went out and bought

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that without my without my knowing, or you know, again,

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you believe this politically, you like that political figure. Help

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me understand why that is? Why is that important to you?

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That opened up a conversation that is so much different

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than let me explain to you why you're wrong. That

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doesn't work in politics, it doesn't work into you know,

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relationships or parenting. Let me explain to you why you're

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raising the kids throng.

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Okay, So, and we're going to go through each of

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you chapters briefly because I you know, I have them

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there and you've got what twelve chapters. So that's great.

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But you almost said something that you caught yourself and corrected.

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You know what that was?

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Nope, I don't remember.

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It was like, why did you do this without my permission?

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Was kind of your direction and then you corrected yourself.

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And do you find that that becomes an issue whether

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it's coming from the woman or the man, you find

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that there's a patriarch or a matriarchy in relationships where

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one person kind of is wanting to take control, and

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if so, what happens with that?

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So we definitely see a lot of that. You know,

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I think where that came from is I was just

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thinking about a couple that I saw recently where there

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were control issues like that. That's not every couple, but

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there certainly are couples where one person feels entitled to

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run the show, and that's tough. When you're coming from

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a place of entitlement, you don't have a lot of empathy,

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and it's very hard to connect with somebody else because

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you think that you by default or right, and what's

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normal for you should be normal for others. And that's

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really the opposite of how to make a relationship work.

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So I guess that's where I was coming from and

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why I drew back from that. You know, if someone

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needs my permission to do something, that probably indicates I'm

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not in the right frame of mind to make a

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good relationship work.

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Well, you know, and that becomes fascinating. You know. You

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talk about and I want to get into your book

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because I think as I looked at the chapters and

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so forth, and I was allowed to at least see

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your first two. But as we get into that, you've

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kind of put it in a really nice order of

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how to develop better relationships with your spouse. And as

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I say, I think that anything that you talk about

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that also applies to the general world. But you start

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with chapter one with time out explain what you mean

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by that.

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So I think that's the first thing for most couples

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that we need to realize is that when you're upset,

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that is not a good time to talk about anything.

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And again, like you said, that's true for broader issues

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as well. But when I'm really ramped up, I can't

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do it well. And that's true for me like it

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is for anybody. I'm a human being too, And even

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though I've been teasing communication for a long time, when

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I'm mad, you know, if I noticed something that i'm

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that my wife didn't do. You know, she was supposed

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to take up the trash room and she didn't, I'm annoyed,

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that's not the time to address it. Because I'm annoyed,

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I'm irritated. I'm going to come off poorly. If we

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wait until later, it's going to go so much better.

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And it's so compelling for people to run right into it.

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I'm annoyed, you know, you forgot to pick up the milk,

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you didn't get up with the kids at night, whatever

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it's going to be, it's so compelling to run right

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into it and tackle that issue. We have to fix

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this right now. But the reality is when you're ramped

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up like that, it doesn't work very well. And so

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taking a break, taking a time out and coming back

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to it later works a lot better. And that's what

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I'm trying to get people to start with.

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Okay, and that, in my mind is a very important aspect.

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But my question to you, if you get upset with

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your wife and you know, because she didn't do something,

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or she gets upset with you because you didn't do anything,

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that happens all the time, all right, So here's the question.

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What brought up that emotion and what triggered that emotion

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in the subconscious that you may not even be aware of.

230
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Sure, that's right, It could be anything that they're going

231
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all the way back down to some really root issues.

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It frequently is usually people are not arguing about who

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have the milk, who didn't have the milk, who got

234
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the dry cleaning, you know, But if you forget to

235
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get the dry cleaning, that says to me, oh, you

236
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don't really care that much about me, right, And so

237
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maybe I'm afraid of abandonments, or I'm afraid that nobody

238
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cares and I'll be lost to the world. There's always

239
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these deeper issues at play, and so taking that break

240
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and taking some time to go in, come back to

241
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it and say, hey, this bothered me, and then you know,

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the whole approach that I lay out in the book.

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It enabled us to go deeper and to find out

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what is underneath that and to really get to the

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core issues of our relationship, which builds something much stronger

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than just okay, next time, don't forget the dry clean.

247
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And how often you get into those I'm not good

248
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enough or I'm being abandoned. How often do you get

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into that with the individuals and recognize that their emotions,

250
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their responses so often have something to do with that.

251
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Well, so in when I'm working with them in couples counseling,

252
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that's not necessarily where we start. First, we sort of

253
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get the tools down and we practice it and we

254
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go deeper and deeper. But as things progress, we do

255
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get there, and the goal is for them to be

256
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able to share that with each other safely, comfortably, securely,

257
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and to hear that and to connect around that. Right,

258
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if I am worried that I'm unlovable because you didn't

259
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get the dry clear, and that you know that reflects

260
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to me that I'm unworthy, like that's an important thing.

261
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I mean that obviously wasn't what you meant? That you

262
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think that I'm not worthy of love. You just forgot

263
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to get the dry cleaning. But it brings us up

264
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for me and to be able to share that and

265
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have you hold that and be there with me. It's

266
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like this real relationship, that's real connection.

267
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Oh amen to that. But I love the time out because,

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as you say, oftentimes, you know, the first step is

269
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to just move away. Hey, I've got to give me

270
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a little bit of time here, and for me sometimes

271
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I say I need one to two days, So just

272
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give me some time here to work this out.

273
00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:11.639
Yeah, and you know what, I've got four kids, We're busy.

274
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My wife works, I work. Sometimes there's an issue you

275
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want to talk about, it takes a couple of days.

276
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Sometimes I sit on something for weeks. If it's not

277
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important or urgent. Well, it's important for you at some point,

278
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but I can wait and we'll talk about it some

279
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weeks later when there's a little bit of downtime and

280
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we say, hey, can you know this thing happened I'd

281
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like to talk about. And that's fine. Some things are

282
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more urgent, like I need you to take care of

283
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this and that has to happen sooner. But people feel

284
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very compellable, like in the moment we have to deal

285
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with this. That is almost never the right way to

286
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go to make something better.

287
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All right, So then when you go from there you

288
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go into chapter two exploring versus resolving. What's the difference

289
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between that?

290
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So, right, often, when there's an issue, you want to

291
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make the problem go away. Right. You know, I don't

292
00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:56.679
like the way that you yell at the kids. Let's

293
00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:58.799
talk about how you can do that better. Well, the

294
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fact of the matter is maybe you're young at the

295
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kids for some good reason. Again, I'm not getting into

296
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the parenting strategies right now, but you have a reason

297
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for what you're doing. Maybe you know you're out of control,

298
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maybe you think that the right thing is to raise

299
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your voice, whatever it might be. But if we run

300
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right into how do we solve this problem, we are

301
00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:18.039
short circuiting all that deeper stuff that you know you

302
00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:20.679
brought up, Like there's something deeper going on here. So

303
00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:22.919
what I tell people is, first we're going to have

304
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a conversation to explore the problem. Let's understand what the

305
00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:28.879
problem is. I don't like that you do this. You

306
00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:32.080
think I'm too soft on the kids. Let's understand the problem.

307
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Because you can't solve a problem that you don't understand,

308
00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:37.799
But we try to do that all the time. I think,

309
00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:40.000
I know what you're thinking, so I'll go and tell

310
00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:42.440
you what the solution is. But that rarely gets a

311
00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:46.399
solution that actually works. And people their experience bears this out.

312
00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:48.559
You know, oh yeah, we've tried to solve as many

313
00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:52.519
times and it hasn't worked. You probably haven't fully understood

314
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:53.919
what the problem is well.

315
00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:57.200
And when you're working with strong personalities, how do you

316
00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:01.320
help them to move from trying to resolve to explore?

317
00:16:01.879 --> 00:16:04.600
So often I just point to their own experience and

318
00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:07.519
I say, you know, this hasn't worked before. You have

319
00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.200
tried to solve this problem many times before most people,

320
00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.399
but by the time they come to couples counseling have

321
00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:14.639
tried to deal with whatever problem it is on their

322
00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:17.120
own and they see that it doesn't help. And so

323
00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:19.919
and also when I say, you know, you can't solve

324
00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:22.919
a problem that you don't understand, people kind of recognize

325
00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:24.840
that you're right, like, we have to understand this better.

326
00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:28.080
So helping them slow down, like, let's try to understand

327
00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:30.759
it and we'll solve it afterwards. First we're going to

328
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explore what the problem is then we'll work on the

329
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resolution that works far better.

330
00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:39.600
So then you move into speaking to be heard? And

331
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what do you mean by that?

332
00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:44.639
So often when I tell you what I'm thinking, I'm

333
00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:47.559
trying to drill it into your head. You did this wrong,

334
00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:49.759
you're doing this. I don't like this, and you should

335
00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:52.440
do it differently. You don't. You know you don't care

336
00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:54.720
about me. That's why you forgot out to get the

337
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dry cleaning. And I'm talking about you. And when I

338
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talk about you, I'm inviting you to argue with me.

339
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That's what I'm doing. I'm saying here, this is what

340
00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:03.720
I think about you. Now you tell me why I'm wrong.

341
00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:06.640
That's essentially what you hear. But when I talk about me,

342
00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:09.519
you know what, when you forget the dry cleaning, here's

343
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how I feel. I feel forgotten, I feel unworthy, I

344
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feel inadequate. Now I'm inviting you to care about me,

345
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and that is speaking to be heard. That's helping you

346
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hear what I need you to hear, instead of trying

347
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to drill it into you, which isn't going to work well.

348
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And as you get into as you get into different personalities,

349
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and this is the one thing that I found as

350
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I you know, work with people, as far as the

351
00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:35.400
behavioral analysts do, the personality evaluations and so forth. Is

352
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so often, for instance, you tend to be more You

353
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went into work as a left brain, but you're more

354
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right brain. You love to be with people, you love

355
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to tell jokes, you love to talk, all of that

356
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type of stuff. And so not only is it how

357
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you like to communicate, but it's also how you like

358
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to be communicated with. I could be driving you crazy

359
00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:01.240
right now because I'm very it's left brain, and so

360
00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:03.880
I may be communicating the way I want to communicate,

361
00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.559
which may not necessarily be how you like to be communicated.

362
00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:12.880
How important is it to understand the other person's personality

363
00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:17.000
and how they would like to be communicated with. So,

364
00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:21.200
for instance, with me, normally, if you know where I'm

365
00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:25.079
left brain, the reality is if someone goes on and

366
00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:28.400
on and on, it drives me crazy. It's just I

367
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:31.920
get to the point. And yet at the same time,

368
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for others is like, well, let's have this conversation and

369
00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:38.599
let's move forward, and so forth. And if I were

370
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:40.759
talking to you and you happen to like more of

371
00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:43.640
that conversation and so on and so forth, I'm just

372
00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:46.240
going to well, here's the point. Here's the point that

373
00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:48.799
can drive you crazy too. So how important is it

374
00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:52.920
for us to really understand the personality of the other

375
00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:57.039
individual and how they want to be spoken to.

376
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So understanding where somebody else i'ms from ban's really underlying

377
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:05.839
everything that we're doing here, right again, help me understand

378
00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:09.039
is to me the three most important words. You don't

379
00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:11.359
like what I'm doing. I don't get it right. Like

380
00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:13.680
you know, maybe I come from a family where interrupting

381
00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:16.160
as normal, and you seem to get very upset every

382
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:17.039
time I interrupt you.

383
00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:18.000
I don't get it.

384
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.759
Could you help me understand why that bothers you? So

385
00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:23.480
if I learn where you're coming from and why, I

386
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:25.480
can try to adapt. That doesn't mean that I'm wrong

387
00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:28.559
and that you're right. It means we're different. People are different,

388
00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:30.960
we can do it differently. And if I'm willing to

389
00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:33.240
hear you out and willing to try to understand you

390
00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:35.599
and get where you're coming from, that puts un in

391
00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:37.720
a much better place to have a good relationship.

392
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:40.480
And that's where speaking to be heard really comes in,

393
00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:44.640
where you really are talking to them knowing that they

394
00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:48.480
will actually hear you, understand you, you get into the

395
00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:51.319
next one. Love your partner. Now that's a big.

396
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:56.359
Topic, right. So when I say that, what I'm referring

397
00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:58.200
to as an acronym that I use in the book,

398
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:02.359
which is love lov and that is what you're supposed

399
00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:04.680
to do when you listen. When you're the listener, you're

400
00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:08.319
not speaking. So I actually I think as a part

401
00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:10.319
in the chapter previously, or or maybe it's in this

402
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:13.480
chapter where I talk about dividing the conversation into two parts.

403
00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:15.640
One is where I speak and you listen, and the

404
00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.359
other one is where I listen and you speak. And

405
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:21.400
so as a speaker, I have certain things that I do.

406
00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:23.240
I talk about me, like I said, I don't talk

407
00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:25.200
about you. But as the listener, you're going to do

408
00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:28.759
four things, and four things only L listen. OH is

409
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:32.400
reflecting your own words. B is validate, and E is

410
00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:36.920
empathized l ov right, either remember acronym, but it takes

411
00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:38.599
away all the other things that we try to do.

412
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:41.279
One of the most common things is people try to explain.

413
00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:43.799
I say to you, I'm really upset because you forgot

414
00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:46.279
to get the dry cleaning, and you say, well, I

415
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:48.440
didn't have time I was so busy, my boss yelled

416
00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:50.759
at me whatever it is, And you think that if

417
00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:53.640
you explain to me why that happened, that all feel better,

418
00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:57.680
and most people will attest that never works. It's rare

419
00:20:57.799 --> 00:20:59.440
that I say, well, you know I didn't have time,

420
00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:01.440
it was so big, and then you go, oh, okay,

421
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:03.720
well then no big deal. Rather, what happens is that

422
00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.680
that esclays the argument. So what I tell people that

423
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:08.960
we have to start with is l ov First, if

424
00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:11.599
you're listening to me, you just listen, and then you

425
00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:13.559
reflect what you heard in your own words. Oh, so

426
00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:15.440
you're upset that I forgot to get the dry cleaning.

427
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:18.240
I get that. Validating means I get that that makes sense.

428
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:20.200
I can see why you feel that way. Right, Let

429
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.400
mean I agree with you. It means I see why

430
00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:25.279
you feel that way. And empathize means it really stinks.

431
00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:27.759
I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry you feel forgotten.

432
00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:30.200
I'm sorry you feel I'm worried, unworthy. Now I'm sorry

433
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:32.720
like I've done bad, but just like I empathize with you.

434
00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:35.880
That's hard. And when I do those things, you feel heard,

435
00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:39.160
you feel connected. It's a much better way to go

436
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:41.039
than my trying to explain to you why you shouldn't

437
00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:42.000
be upset.

438
00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:45.160
Upset well, And I love that. You know, when when

439
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:49.160
you're saying something to me and I'm not really liking

440
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:51.400
what you say, can you help me to understand that

441
00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:54.759
a little bit more? And you know that type of

442
00:21:54.759 --> 00:21:57.839
thing where you are able to acknowledge what they said

443
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:02.119
and empathize with it and realize it. And I think

444
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:04.880
that's such an important part of communication that most people

445
00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:05.799
don't understand.

446
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.680
I mean, nobody teaches us this stuff when we're kids.

447
00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:10.880
We just kind of fumble along. And then you get

448
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:12.880
married and I don't know about you, but I didn't

449
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:15.440
get the Manual to Marriage when I got married. You know,

450
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:17.160
we're left to figure it out by this out. That's

451
00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:19.119
why I wrote this manual, you know, for the community

452
00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:22.680
to help chigured out. It's difficult, but when you learn

453
00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:25.119
what works, and when you learn the skills and practice them,

454
00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:28.359
it makes it so much more workable. It works well well.

455
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:30.400
And that's a whole other topic about how do we

456
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:34.319
prepare our children for a better marriage from the get go,

457
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:37.799
Because the divorce rate is so high that it was

458
00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:40.559
very sad, all right, So then we get into listening,

459
00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:42.440
and you've kind of talked about that a little bit,

460
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:44.519
but let's get into that depth a little bit more.

461
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.200
Right So, the listening means I'm really listening to you,

462
00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:50.400
and I'm not listening in order to come up with

463
00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:53.400
my next rebuttal right, listening means I've put myself into

464
00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:56.920
your world. We all agree in this stage my stuff

465
00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:59.039
doesn't matter. If I'm listening to you complain about the

466
00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:01.400
dry cleaning, I'm going to be there with you. The

467
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:03.240
fact that I had a rough day, the fact that

468
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:05.400
my car broke down. Those could all be true. It's

469
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:08.079
irrelevant right now. Right now, I'm in your world and

470
00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:10.559
I'm going to be totally there and just understand what

471
00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:13.519
you're saying, rather than thinking out what I'm gonna say next,

472
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:17.079
rather than scrolling through my phone, like I'm there with you.

473
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:20.240
So that's listening. And you know, there's some basic skills

474
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:21.640
to go into that. I think a lot of people

475
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:24.200
are familiar with them. But this is just helping people

476
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.720
remember like, oh yeah, I should be paying attention. Eye

477
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.400
content can be helpful, at least an American culture, we

478
00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:32.559
sort of expect it. So getting that dialed in and

479
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:34.519
it's like, Okay, I really am listening, so that you

480
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.279
know I'm listening to you. That's an important place to start.

481
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:42.240
Yeah. Yeah, And you know where does the ego come

482
00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:43.240
into this whole thing?

483
00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:46.400
Oh it's everywhere, right, Our ego is everywhere. It's very

484
00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:49.839
hard for me to allow your your version of the

485
00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:54.519
story right. So often couples have differing versions of what happened. No,

486
00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:56.880
you didn't say that, you said this rest. No, you

487
00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:59.319
said Dad first in the death, and they argue about

488
00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:01.720
it and I have to be right. And throughout the

489
00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:03.960
book I talk about how this is not about right

490
00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:06.400
or wrong. If you want to insist on being right,

491
00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:09.039
you can go right to Rightville on your own. It's

492
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:11.559
a very lonely place. Right. We have this ego that

493
00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:13.480
we want to be right, and it's hard to be wrong.

494
00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:16.000
But if we can agree. Look, your version of your

495
00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:18.920
story is yours mine is mine, and we don't have

496
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:21.160
to make them match up. That's a hard pill for

497
00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:23.319
a lot of people to swallow. We are not going

498
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:26.599
to reconcile what happened. But it's a much better place

499
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:28.920
because if I have to agree with you or you

500
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:31.039
have to agree with me, we're going to be fighting

501
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:33.440
forever about who is right. If we can let go

502
00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:35.599
of that ego a little bit, I do not have

503
00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:37.599
to convince you that I'm right. I just have to

504
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:40.160
understand how you feel about it. You have to understand

505
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:42.160
how I see it, how I feel about it. That's

506
00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:44.400
a great connection, even if we don't agree ever.

507
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:47.079
Well, and you talk about it, and I would say

508
00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:50.039
the word perception, and you know, I find a fascinating

509
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:53.279
I've got a brother that is an attorney and the

510
00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:56.559
centies as we got into this conversation where he talks about,

511
00:24:56.599 --> 00:24:59.720
you know, here's an accident, and you've got four witnesses

512
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:02.720
of what happened, and as you interview each of those

513
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:07.640
four witnesses, they have an entirely different perception of what happened.

514
00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:12.680
And it's interesting how we are literally controlled by our

515
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:17.359
perceptions and not realizing that, you know, maybe my perception

516
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:20.000
is entirely different than your perception.

517
00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:22.839
Right. So that's why I tell people, let's not worry

518
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:25.759
about what actually happened. Let's talk about how you see

519
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:27.880
it and how you feel about that, because that's where

520
00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:28.920
the action is happening.

521
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:32.519
Yeah, I love it. And then you've talked about it again,

522
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:34.279
and I love the order of how you've done that,

523
00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:36.799
reflecting in your own words, talk a little bit about

524
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:37.480
what that is.

525
00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:39.599
Great. So the first thing I do is I listened

526
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:41.279
to you, but I got to make sure that I

527
00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:44.200
got what you said. It's so common you said I'm

528
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:46.279
angry about this, that, and the other, and I think

529
00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:48.720
you meant you're angry about something like I didn't quite

530
00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:51.039
get it. So I have to verify that I got

531
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:52.880
it by saying, okay, So you're mad at me because

532
00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:55.160
I forgot the dry cleaning right, or maybe you're not

533
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:57.079
mad at me about forgetting the dry cleaning, but you're

534
00:25:57.079 --> 00:25:59.079
mad that I didn't call you when I whatever it's

535
00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:01.039
going to be, I have to that that I got

536
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:01.440
it right.

537
00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:01.839
Now.

538
00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:04.160
Even if I'm sure that I got it right, and

539
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:06.839
I did get it right, I want you to know

540
00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:08.920
that I got it right. If I say okay, I

541
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:11.279
get it, you don't really know whether I got it

542
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:13.440
when I say to you okay. So it really bothers

543
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:15.119
you when I forget to get things that I said

544
00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:17.720
I would get. Now you know I heard you. There's

545
00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:20.079
a connection there. There's a relief that I heard you.

546
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:22.920
That's a really important step besides the saying mm hmm,

547
00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:25.079
I get it. I had to say, I get you're

548
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:27.400
upset about X y Z. And then you know that

549
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:27.920
I heard you.

550
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:33.039
Okay, yeah, and when you when couple start to do that,

551
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.079
what do you see starts to change in that relationship?

552
00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:41.519
They get in sync, you know, instead of being at loggerheads.

553
00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:44.240
If I really step into your world and I say, okay,

554
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:47.160
you're saying this, this is what's bothering you, I get

555
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:50.200
that that bothers you. Now you know I'm listening instead

556
00:26:50.200 --> 00:26:52.640
of trying to force something down my throat and I'm

557
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:55.720
trying to defend against it. We're in sync. We're working

558
00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:58.880
together on the problem. It feels so much better for people.

559
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:02.599
Well, and you kind of went into the validating the empathize,

560
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:06.240
you know, the empathizing is so yeah, go ahead and

561
00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:06.799
talk about that.

562
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:09.519
So the next part is now that I understood what

563
00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:11.920
you said, right, I said, okay, you are upset about this,

564
00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:14.079
Then I want you to know I get that that

565
00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:17.279
makes sense. I don't necessarily agree that that's what happened.

566
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:19.480
I don't agree that. I know you said to me

567
00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:21.880
you don't care about my needs enough. I don't necessarily

568
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:24.440
agree with that, but I can understand why you would

569
00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:27.480
feel that in the situation. You're not crazy. What you're

570
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:30.559
saying makes sense. It's valid to feel the way you do.

571
00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:33.359
That again, is a relief for people. It feels better,

572
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:35.680
it feels like we're on the same page. That is

573
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:39.400
super helpful to moving the conversation along in a collaborative way.

574
00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:43.119
Yeah, I smile. As I was doing some work with

575
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:49.359
coaching life coaching. One of the comments that was made

576
00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:51.599
and we were getting into the whole concept of emotion

577
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:55.759
and how that can affect us. And he's the gentleman

578
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:58.000
that was teaching us, said, you know, here's something that

579
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:02.680
you ideally could say to you, but you better not

580
00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:06.440
or you're in real trouble. And that is so dear.

581
00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:09.880
What emotion came up for you? It caused you to

582
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:18.039
respond this way, right, and yet that's the truth.

583
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:19.960
But the way to say that again is help me

584
00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:23.480
understand what's bothering you right now? How are you feeling? Right?

585
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:25.839
When I say how you feeling that made you act

586
00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:29.119
that way, I'm implying that you're being obnoxious. I'm implying

587
00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:32.400
you've done something wrong. And the subtext never goes well

588
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:34.720
but if I'm coming from a place of I'd like

589
00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:38.160
to understand that's okay. Hey, you seem a little bit upset.

590
00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:40.039
You know, we're talking about what's what the plan is

591
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:42.279
for dinner? You seem a little bit upset right now?

592
00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:45.119
Is something about what's bothering you? If I really want

593
00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:47.519
to know, it comes across as genuine and you can

594
00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:49.839
tell me. But I'm saying, well, what's bothering you? Now?

595
00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:52.359
I'm not really asking you. I'm telling you to shut

596
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:54.559
up and stop doing that. And that's not a good connection.

597
00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:57.480
Well, and you've got the words you've used, You've got

598
00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:00.680
the tone that you use, you've got the boss language

599
00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:03.440
they use, and all of that. And do you work

600
00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:05.960
with people on that as you observe what's going on.

601
00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:09.519
Well, sometimes we'll we'll bring that up in the sense that,

602
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:11.759
you know, someone will say I don't think he's listening

603
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:13.680
to me. I'll say okay, and he'll say, well I

604
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:15.839
am listening. I'll say, well, you know what, the way

605
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:17.960
you're kind of leaning back like this, you know, it

606
00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:20.599
kind of indicates that maybe you know, the body language

607
00:29:20.599 --> 00:29:23.119
says you're not really paying that much attention. Try sitting

608
00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:25.279
a little more forward like this and looking at her.

609
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:28.400
That might convey more that you're listening, and it often does.

610
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:32.240
All right in your next chapter beginning's, middles and endings,

611
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:33.519
what is that all about?

612
00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:36.359
Just let's talking of a lot about the mechanics of

613
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:38.200
what how do we get into this conversation?

614
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:38.839
Right?

615
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:41.680
I suggest to people it's really helpful if you do

616
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:45.079
your partner in right. So if you're mad about dinner

617
00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:47.079
or the dry cleaner or whatever, if you launch right

618
00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:48.799
into that, you know, I'm mad because of this that

619
00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:51.440
the other your partner is likely to you know, get

620
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:53.680
defensive and be caught off guard. But if I say

621
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:55.640
to you, hey, you know, can we talk about something

622
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:57.720
that's bothering me, I'd really just like you to listen

623
00:29:57.759 --> 00:29:59.119
to me and hear me out. Let's do that listening

624
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:01.240
thing that we do right. That will help us get

625
00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:03.920
into the right mode for you to listen and get

626
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:06.240
to my world and you know, l ov and all

627
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:09.119
that stuff, rather than being caught off guard. So talking

628
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:12.440
about the beginning the middle, how do we transition back

629
00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:15.559
and forth between my speaking to year speaking, which is

630
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:19.119
basically with permission, right, If I'm speaking and I'm telling

631
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:21.279
you how I feel, and something comes up for you,

632
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:23.440
maybe you want to share that, but it's really helpful

633
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:25.240
for you to say, hey, could I share something of

634
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:27.319
mine now? Or if I say, hey, I'd like to

635
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:29.480
hear from you now. If we don't, if we aren't

636
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:31.480
clear about who's got the comp shell, you know, who's

637
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:34.160
who's got the talking stick and who's speaking, that turns

638
00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:36.559
into a ping pong match very quickly. So just being

639
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:39.799
sure about you know, how we're transitioning who's speaking, and

640
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:41.480
then the ending is like, okay, when do we have

641
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:43.559
to take a break, When are we done with the conversation?

642
00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:46.400
You know, how do we move on to the resolution conversation.

643
00:30:46.759 --> 00:30:48.920
So it's a lot of the mechanics of those conversations,

644
00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:51.640
but that all comes a lot a lot more clear

645
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:54.200
when you get the skills down, you practice those you know,

646
00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:56.880
the speaking, the listening in a helpful way.

647
00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:00.319
Well. As you talk about the beginning, that really then

648
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:04.640
falls on whoever is upset about something to be able

649
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:08.640
to approach it in a way that doesn't immediately challenge

650
00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:12.119
the other person and their ego, but as you're saying

651
00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:16.240
or rather you know, approach it from a standpoint of words, emotion,

652
00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:19.480
body language, all of that that just says, hey, here's

653
00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:23.400
how I'm feeling, and it's really bothered me without putting

654
00:31:23.480 --> 00:31:25.279
blame on someone else.

655
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:29.680
Right, Blame will not help. Blame breathes defensiveness, and defensiveness

656
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:32.559
does not work for these conversations. Right. That's why I

657
00:31:32.599 --> 00:31:35.400
say I talk about me. I talk about my story.

658
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:37.920
I want you to understand how the world looks from

659
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:40.079
my perspective. I don't want to talk about you, because

660
00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:41.680
you're going to argue if I talk about you. I

661
00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:42.440
want to talk about me.

662
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:49.079
Okay, So we've spent two days now not talking. Now

663
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:53.400
must real bad, doctor, don Now we're gonna now we're

664
00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:56.079
going to come together and resolve this thing. And and

665
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:58.640
how do you help those people and whatever that is,

666
00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:01.359
whether it's two hours or two day or whatever, or

667
00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:04.279
as you said, even sometimes two weeks, how do you

668
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:10.160
then approach it to achieve a resolution not only of understanding,

669
00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:16.000
but of empathy and love, not as you talk about it,

670
00:32:16.039 --> 00:32:17.680
but true love and connection.

671
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:21.799
Yeah. Yeah, So again, the first thing is if we

672
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:24.440
had a bad incident, we're gonna come back when we're ready,

673
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:26.960
when we're calm, and go through this thing. I call

674
00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:29.519
it empathic dialogue, which is where I'm speaking to be heard.

675
00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:33.319
You're listening with the love skills, and we just explore

676
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:36.400
the problem together. You understand what hurts me about it.

677
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:39.000
I understand what hurts you about it. So often we're

678
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:41.000
mad at each other for the same thing, and those

679
00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:43.880
are the hardest conversations because I think you're wrong, you

680
00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:47.000
think I'm wrong, and it's such a good tendency to

681
00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:50.039
start blaming. But if I tell you how I'm feeling,

682
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:52.079
and then we switch and you tell me how you're feeling,

683
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:54.759
now we're in connection again because I care about how

684
00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:56.680
you're feeling. I may not agree with you and your

685
00:32:56.720 --> 00:32:59.160
perception of what happened, but I really care about how

686
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.480
you feel. That makes all the difference. Now we're in

687
00:33:01.480 --> 00:33:04.000
connection again, and then we can move towards resolving and

688
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:06.359
figuring out what to do in the future about this

689
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:09.880
particular situation. But until we feel connected and empathic towards

690
00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:11.720
each other, we're not going to get anywhere.

691
00:33:11.960 --> 00:33:14.799
So any examples of that, because you know, as you say,

692
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:18.240
there may be perception on one end and perception on

693
00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:22.319
another end. Once they've come together and are really going

694
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:26.319
through this resolving process, how how do you help people

695
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:28.400
if you know, they really get to the point of

696
00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:31.200
we're going to just have to agree to disagree, but

697
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:33.920
that's not the ideal. How do you help How do

698
00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:37.640
you help them to really come together and come up

699
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:40.400
with a solution that works for both people.

700
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:46.559
So solutions are not necessarily what you need for a

701
00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:49.759
good relationship or a good marriage. There are some problems

702
00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:52.920
that don't have good solutions right. The research shows that

703
00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:57.720
most couples have irreconcilable differences in their marriage. There are,

704
00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:00.279
you know, certain things they will never agree on. How

705
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:03.200
you discuss that makes the difference in terms of whether

706
00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:06.880
it's a good marriage or not. So regardless of how

707
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:08.800
we're going to handle it, if I can talk to

708
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:10.440
you in a way that that works well. So let's

709
00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:12.519
say I think you're too harsh on the kids, and

710
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:14.840
you think I'm too easy on the kids. So if

711
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:16.760
I can tell you, you know what, when you yell

712
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:19.840
at them, I get scared. I'm worried that they're going to, uh,

713
00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:21.599
they're going to not like you, They're going to be

714
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:24.400
more rebellion. I'm worried about these things. And you can

715
00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:26.840
empathize with my worry, and then I can hear what

716
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:29.039
you know you're worry. You'll tell me, well, I'm worried.

717
00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:31.000
If we don't set firm boundaries, they're going to be

718
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:34.239
losing all over the place. And you have that worry. Okay, great,

719
00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:37.199
So I care about your worry, you care about my worry.

720
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:39.639
We're in this together. What's the best way to do

721
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:41.639
it good? We can work on that. We can now

722
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:43.920
if we understand each other and care about the other

723
00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:47.239
person's strains and worries and stresses, we can work towards

724
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:49.599
ideas that might help. We may never come up with

725
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:52.360
something perfect, but that won't matter as much for our

726
00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:55.920
relationship because we'll feel like we're in this together and

727
00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:56.719
that's where it's at.

728
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:59.559
Well, but you brought up an interesting point. As you're

729
00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:02.519
working with with your kids, you want to do it

730
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:04.519
in a particular way. They want to do it a

731
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:08.159
particular way. It may be opposite. How do you come

732
00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:14.320
to a solution where your kids are experiencing a commonality

733
00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:20.119
of parenting that otherwise they would be experiencing that conflict

734
00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:22.719
that's going on, and well that dad says it this way,

735
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:26.199
Mom says it this way, and yet they don't agree.

736
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:30.960
So how do you come together, particularly in parenting, to

737
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:32.800
not create that issue for your children.

738
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:36.039
So I think the idea that the parents have to

739
00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:39.599
be exactly the same is this common misconception out there

740
00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:41.920
that like, if we're not exactly doing the same thing,

741
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:45.480
the kids are going to suffer. It's okay for dad

742
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:47.199
to be a little harsher and mom to be a

743
00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:49.760
little softer. I see that in couples all over the place.

744
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:53.559
I think the key is not to undermine each other

745
00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:55.840
or not to fight about it in front of the kids,

746
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:58.239
but to say afterwards, you know, when you yelled at

747
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:00.199
the kids or when you did this, I really makes

748
00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:01.760
me uncomfortable, and I wish we could do it a

749
00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:04.559
little differently, and we can keep working on that. But

750
00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:06.639
you know what, when you're you know, when you're being

751
00:36:06.679 --> 00:36:08.880
harsh with the kids, I'm not gonna step in there

752
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:11.159
and say no, don't do that. And when I you know,

753
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:13.559
offer the kids an exit, assert you don't step in

754
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:15.559
there and take it away from them, like, Okay, we

755
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:17.360
can talk about it later. We can again, we can

756
00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:19.760
go through the steps and empathize about it with each other.

757
00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:23.000
The kids will be okay, We'll be in good shape,

758
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:25.199
and we keep working on it together. I saw a

759
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:28.960
couple one time that had a completely opposite problem. She

760
00:36:29.079 --> 00:36:33.400
wanted another kid, he did not. There's no halfway point there,

761
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:36.119
there's no compromise about we'll just have the top half.

762
00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:39.119
That's not an option, right, So it's either you do

763
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:42.559
or you don't. And their marriage was suffering because they couldn't.

764
00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:45.559
They couldn't get reconciled around this. So they came in.

765
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:48.599
We worked on the communication patterns. We helped them understand

766
00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:51.320
why was it so important to her to have another kid?

767
00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:53.519
Why was he so opposed to it? And they had

768
00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:56.159
deep reasons. It wasn't like just you know, out of nowhere.

769
00:36:56.320 --> 00:36:58.400
There were deep seated reasons about this. And once we

770
00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:00.920
got down to those deeper things like you mentioned before,

771
00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:03.360
they were able to really hear the other person and

772
00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:06.280
connect and empathize. And they came back after a few

773
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:08.639
weeks and said, you know what, our marriage is much

774
00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:10.599
better and thank you. We really feel much better about

775
00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:12.639
where this is going. And that was it. And I

776
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:15.000
have no idea what they decided about having a care

777
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:18.599
out that that's a decat That wasn't the issue these

778
00:37:18.599 --> 00:37:21.360
two is are we connected or not? This problem may

779
00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:23.840
not have a good solution, but we love each other,

780
00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:25.559
we're committed, We're going to work through this.

781
00:37:26.119 --> 00:37:28.559
That's the relations and you know that goes into your

782
00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:32.800
next chapter of mindset, and really, ultimately, isn't that the

783
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:37.239
key is? How do we develop that mindset that we

784
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:43.440
follow your whole book and chapters on how to communicate

785
00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:46.599
well and how to connect well? How does someone develop

786
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:48.559
that proper mindset?

787
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:52.880
I think it's a question of paying attention to the

788
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:55.400
things that make this workable. So some of the mindsets

789
00:37:55.400 --> 00:37:57.280
that bring up in there, well, one of them is

790
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:01.559
your partner is awesome, right, Like, you really love your

791
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:03.800
partner and can think of some very good things about them.

792
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:06.800
If you can't think about anything good about your partner,

793
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:10.280
we have a problem, right And the communication book may

794
00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:12.440
not be what we need right now. But if you

795
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:14.400
focus on the things that are right about them and

796
00:38:14.440 --> 00:38:16.960
the things that work, and you notice them and you

797
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:20.000
verbalize them, then when they forget the dry cleaning if

798
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:22.400
not that big a deal, and when you have a

799
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:25.840
context in which to place the mistakes and the problems,

800
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:31.360
it hurts less. So cultivating that culture of appreciation and

801
00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:35.519
fondness in your relationship is an important mindset. Benefit of

802
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:38.320
the doubt. Right, that's a hard one. You came late,

803
00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:39.840
and I assume it is because you don't care about

804
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:42.079
me and you've forgotten all those things. But the reality

805
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:46.159
is traffic. If somebody stole your phone, the boss was

806
00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:48.039
young at you, whatever it might be, that makes a

807
00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:51.159
lot of sense. And we've all had these situations where

808
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:54.320
we're mad at somebody and then afterwards we find out like, oh,

809
00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:57.559
I see why that happened, right, And so if you

810
00:38:57.639 --> 00:38:59.519
can have that mindset up there, there might be a

811
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:02.599
good reason here. We reduce the number of fights and

812
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:04.960
reduce the friction. So there are ways that we can

813
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:09.079
cultivate a mindset in ourselves that reduce conflict and improve

814
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:10.519
communication in our relationship.

815
00:39:10.679 --> 00:39:12.719
So as you work with couples, do you find that

816
00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:18.599
there's some commonality of particular issues that seem to always

817
00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:20.400
be there with most couples.

818
00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:23.360
So most couples come to me saying we need help

819
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:26.159
with communication. That's why I wrote this book because it always,

820
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:29.760
not always, it frequently starts there, and it's usually a

821
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:33.920
deeper issue like I feel unloved, I feel unprioritized, which

822
00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:39.639
are common themes, or I feel controlled, and where that

823
00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:41.960
first comes up is when we're trying to communicate about

824
00:39:41.960 --> 00:39:44.559
an issue and it doesn't go well. So it's very

825
00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:47.400
common for people to feel like they have communication issues,

826
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:50.360
it's not working well, and getting that to change, getting

827
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:52.760
that dynamic, that change helps us get to the deeper

828
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:54.760
stuff that's really bothering them in the relationship.

829
00:39:55.039 --> 00:39:57.920
So any other examples of couples that you've worked with

830
00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:03.199
where there's been a dramatic change in their relationship because

831
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:05.119
of your help with this.

832
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:08.320
Sure, yeah, I mean, you know, we see dramatic changes

833
00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:11.039
all the time. More often than not, it's sort of

834
00:40:11.079 --> 00:40:14.679
slow and gradual and not huge, but sometimes it really is.

835
00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:16.920
I mean, I've worked with couples. I do a lot

836
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:19.360
of work with infidelity, and people come in, you know,

837
00:40:19.559 --> 00:40:21.360
sort of at the end of their rope, the bottom

838
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:23.920
of the barrel. They think the relationship is over. And

839
00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:26.280
the truth infidelity does not have to mean the end

840
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:28.760
of the relationship, but there is a lot of communicating

841
00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:30.400
that has to go into it, and a lot of

842
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:35.440
very ginger conversations, a lot of difficult conversations with good

843
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:39.639
communication skills, but people who are about to split up

844
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:42.079
and about to lose a very important thing to them

845
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:46.000
to turn around. I have seen couples where infidelity blew

846
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:48.440
up the marriage and we put it back together and

847
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:50.880
they're living a happy life after. I remember one guy

848
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:55.440
came in terrified that he had just been found out,

849
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:58.000
and we brought the couple in and it turns out

850
00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:00.000
that after a while, it turns out the affair part

851
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.719
it was pregnant and had the child, and it was

852
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:08.320
it was disastrous, but consistent work, commitment, getting better communication,

853
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:10.800
they made it through and they had a happy marriage

854
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:13.320
and they incorporated this child into their lives and they

855
00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:14.400
got married and it was good.

856
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:18.039
It's work well, and you know, we have our successes,

857
00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:21.239
we have our failures. As you approached us in your

858
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:25.880
couple's counseling, what what would you say, you know, not

859
00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:29.280
a specific number, but what percentage do you find you

860
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:33.280
can help couples to come together when they're really in

861
00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:37.519
trouble versus those and what what is the key what

862
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:41.760
is the key indication of the individuals in that couple

863
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:45.239
that help you to know, you know what, I can

864
00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:48.719
really help them or it's just not going to happen.

865
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:52.800
So one thing is a willingness to change and to

866
00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:56.480
look themselves. Some of who comes in assuming that it's

867
00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:58.920
all their partner or you know, I don't have to

868
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:02.519
change anything, that's probably not going to get better. Everybody

869
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:05.079
has to work together on this. Everyone's got to change.

870
00:42:05.239 --> 00:42:07.679
Nobody's perfect. So people who come and say, you know,

871
00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:10.159
can you fix my wife, like, that's probably not going

872
00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:12.920
to get better. And the other thing is that people

873
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:15.639
need a basic sense of respect for each other. When

874
00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:18.559
there is contempt for the other person, they think they're

875
00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:21.039
allows a person. I think that you're stupid, I think

876
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:25.519
that you are you know, any number of negative things.

877
00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:27.480
If I don't have the basic respect for you and

878
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:30.480
I have contempt for you, that is a real harbinger

879
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:33.000
of the end of the relationship.

880
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:35.519
So do you just not work with those folks or

881
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:37.280
only work with them for a few weeks.

882
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:40.920
I will try with every just about everybody. I will

883
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:43.239
try and help them see what they can do differently.

884
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:45.880
I'll say, look, if you don't have respect for your spouse,

885
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:47.920
it probably won't get better. If you think that you

886
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:50.559
don't have to do anything differently, it probably won't get better.

887
00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:53.920
I try to draw them in, but it's up to them. Ultimately,

888
00:42:53.960 --> 00:42:56.519
I can't do the work for them. The place where

889
00:42:56.519 --> 00:42:58.239
I don't try to work with them is where it

890
00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:01.639
seems like there's a safety issue when there's domestic violence involved.

891
00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:05.119
I remember one time where I met this couple and

892
00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:06.760
I called her up afterwards and I said, I think

893
00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:08.440
you're in physical danger and I think you need to

894
00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:12.360
leave and get yourself safe. But that's rare for the

895
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:14.679
people who come to me. I mean, domestic violence unfortunately

896
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:16.679
is not rare, but for the people who come see

897
00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:18.360
me that it's now so common.

898
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:21.920
Yeah. Yeah, So the name of the book and how

899
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:24.360
do people find it and how do people find you

900
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:24.880
for help?

901
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:27.719
Right? So, the name of the book is the Couple's

902
00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:31.360
Communication Handbook, The Skills you never learned for the marriage

903
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:34.159
you always wanted. You can find the book and me

904
00:43:34.519 --> 00:43:37.840
at vcommunication book dot com and you can get the

905
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:40.079
first du chapters for free, as I know you did.

906
00:43:40.760 --> 00:43:42.440
You can get the first du chapters for free in

907
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:45.639
a PDF in audiobook and check it out and see

908
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:47.239
if you think it's helpful. I think it will be.

909
00:43:47.320 --> 00:43:49.800
But check it out for yourselves. And people can reach

910
00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:51.559
out to me through the site there if they want

911
00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:54.920
to ask questions about the book or get some individualized help.

912
00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.119
I'm happy to do that as my mission in life

913
00:43:57.400 --> 00:43:59.280
is helping people get the relationships they want.

914
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:03.400
Amazon also because you mentioned audio books, or it.

915
00:44:03.400 --> 00:44:07.400
Is on Amazon as a paperback ebook and audiobook, and

916
00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:09.400
you can you can search on Amazon and you can

917
00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:11.280
find it. There's a link to it on Amazon from

918
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:11.679
that site.

919
00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:15.360
Because I love audio books for me. You know, if

920
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:17.880
you're really busy, being able to listen while you're driving,

921
00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:20.960
or to listen while you're walking or exercising, I think

922
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:24.920
that's fantastic. So as we close, what would be a

923
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.519
final thought that you'd like to share with with the

924
00:44:27.559 --> 00:44:28.760
couples that are listening.

925
00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:31.639
I just want people to know that things can get

926
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:35.599
better in a difficult relationship, and that getting your communication

927
00:44:35.719 --> 00:44:38.320
dialed in can really make all the difference. So people

928
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:43.280
sometimes are despairing or exhausted or exasperated. You know, getting

929
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:45.159
some help really makes a difference. You take out a

930
00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:47.480
book like this, you talk to a couple's coach or

931
00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:50.480
a counselor things can get better and it can really

932
00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:51.760
make a difference in people's lives.

933
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:53.760
Well, I love it, and I think you've hit on

934
00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:56.960
a key point. You know so often and I'm guilty

935
00:44:56.960 --> 00:45:01.199
of this, you know, trying to resolve it myself versus

936
00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:04.079
recognizing that, you know, when you can get some outside help,

937
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:09.159
someone that's independent and not emotionally involved, per se that

938
00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:14.679
it is so important. So Raffie, thanks so much. You know,

939
00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:18.719
I love how you've put this whole book together. I've

940
00:45:18.760 --> 00:45:22.000
studied communication a lot, and you know, as you're talking

941
00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:23.760
about it, in the order that you put it in

942
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:27.400
is just amazing. So really appreciate that.

943
00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:29.320
Thank you so much for the vote of confidence. They

944
00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:30.400
really hope that it helps people.

945
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:33.519
Oh you bet, and folks, thanks for listening. I hope

946
00:45:33.519 --> 00:45:35.599
you've enjoyed it. Look forward to having you join us

947
00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:39.079
again soon. This is doctor Doug saying, no, I'm mistake.