Feb. 24, 2026

Healing Relationships: Attachment, Trauma & Infidelity Recovery with Kayla Listening, LMFT

Healing Relationships: Attachment, Trauma & Infidelity Recovery with Kayla Listening, LMFT
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Licensed marriage & family therapist Kayla Listening joins Dr. Doug to unpack relational trauma, attachment styles, communication that heals, a structured path to infidelity recovery, and healing of deep personal trauma—including a description of EMDR. She treats therapy clients in Colorado and offers relational coaching elsewhere. Learn more: SouthDenverTherapy.com

Inspire Vision Podcast is broadcast on K4HD Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com).

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WEBVTT

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,

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legal counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek

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the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any

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suggested ideas.

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At the end of the day, it's not about what

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you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what

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you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,

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who you've made better. It's about what you've given back.

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Thanzel Washington, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is

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to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you

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to do the same.

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Taylo Welcome to the show.

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Hi, thank you for having me.

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Hey, I'm really excited about having you here. I want

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you to kind of share with the audience who you

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are and what brought you to doing what you're doing.

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I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I specialize in

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relationships in trauma. I'm also a trauma trained therapist and

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I really love to combine the two and help with

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relational trauma, whether that's trauma that happens inside the relationship,

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so infidelity, history of some kind of abuse, anything like that,

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in addition to traumas that people experienced outside of the relationship,

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but the kind of the what's that damage is kind

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of impacting the relationship today, so we can kind of

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help with that as well. I became a therapist just

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because I've had my own fair share of therapy, and

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I've had some incredible life changing therapists and have some

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not so great therapists, and I really thought, you know this,

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It kind of just spoke to me and I thought, hey,

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I can think I can do this. I think I've

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got another client experience to a pretty good idea of

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what works and what doesn't. And then about four four

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or five years ago, I started specializing in couples. I

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was given a couple to work with at a group

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practice and I had no experience, and it turned out

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really great, and the couple ended up they were kind

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of felt like they were on the brink of separation

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and they ended up doing great and now they're happy

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years later, and so it was really inspiring, and so

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I wanted to learn more and I just kind of

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fell in love with the couple's work.

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Oh that's great, And you're located in Denver.

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Right, Denver, Colorado.

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Yep. So here's the big question, why do you want

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to be on a podcast?

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Well, I really love to share you know, some tools.

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Therapy is not accessible for everyone, unfortunately, and so I

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think it we can't people can work on their relationship

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without therapy. And there's some kind of general tools that

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I can offer that are relatively simple that can really

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make a big impact. And so I'm really passionate about

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sharing that again for people that either don't want to

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go to therapy or they just don't have the resources

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or time to go to therapy.

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Okay, and you only work in the Denver area, right, Colorado,

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So it's not like you do zoom meetings with people

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outside of the state of Colorado. Is that a fair assumption?

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So I only do therapy. I only did trauma therapy

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in Colorado. I can offer relational coaching, which did not

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include any kind of trauma work, but just kind of

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skill building tools, that kind of stuff. I can offer

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that to anyone outside of the state of Colorado as well.

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Okay, good. So here's my question, and you kind of

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mentioned it. You know, you've been through some therapy, and

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I've interviewed a tremendous amount of people who are quote coaches,

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and I hate that word, but most of the ones

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that I've interviewed are really good at helping people through

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some of that difficulty, subconscious problems and so forth. And

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then you have your therapists, and as you said, there's

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some good ones and there's not some good ones. And

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I'd love for you to kind of share with your

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audience based on your point of view, your opinion at

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what point in time, because as you say you are,

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you can be a coach or a therapist to people

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outside of the state, so you're not licensed to do that,

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and yet you're very well trained to do that as

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other people are that may not be a licensed therapist

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per se. So as you look at that and just

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from your experience, at what point in time and where

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are the issues that for instance, you know, we can

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work with you on this for this, you probably need

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to talk to someone's a little bit more experienced for this.

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You really need a licensed therapist, and you don't need

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talk therapy. You need actually someone that's going to get

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to the cause of what's going on. So what what's

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your thoughts on that? Where do people need to go

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based on what they're experiencing? As you say, many of

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them attempt and very successfully sometimes you're able to do

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some of their own personal therapy.

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Yeah, So you know, I believe that therapy kind of coaching,

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this this profession, this line of work a lot of people.

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You know, the schooling is definitely important, and that gives

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us some you know, the tools and the legalities, the ethics,

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that kind of stuff. But I think sometimes people just

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have like they have that connection, you know, so much

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of therapy. The number one predictor of therapeutic success is

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the relationship people have with their therapist or coach or

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anything like that. And so I think that that's kind

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of paramount, right, just being able to connect with people listen,

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having those skills, those communication skills. Of course, some kind

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of training, whether it is like I said, through school

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or through I've gone to I'm trained in a couple

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different types of modalities, like highly trained in those a

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lot of that that's really important because people are trusting

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us with their relationships, you know what I mean. And

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so I think that that's so important to be respectful

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and mindful of how important it is to really develop

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these skills and tools. So I think whatever more important

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is kind of connecting with whoever you're working with, of course,

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also talking to them about their process and what that

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looks like and see if it resonates with you. However,

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if there's any kind of trauma work that needs to

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be done, I would definitely recommend a license professional, and

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that not only license, but also having some specialty training

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and trauma. Trauma can be risky to work with. You know,

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there is a risk of re traumatizing people, and so

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it's definitely important to have that special training when it

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comes to that. So your therapist would be able to

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kind of help you through any kind of situations when

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you're processing trauma.

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Okay, And I appreciate you saying that, because that was

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what I wanted the audience to really understand, is that

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there's a level of trauma. I mean, we all experienced trauma.

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It's some degree that when you get to a certain

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level of trauma, you really need someone who's license, who

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has some of the modalities that I know you use

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that are extremely effective, but you have to be highly

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trained in that. So, you know, as you mentioned couple therapy,

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and we'll get into an a lot of things, but

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as we mentioned couple therapy, obviously there's a lot of

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reasons why couples start to have challenges. My question for

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you is how much or what percentage of people that

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you see that are struggling actually are experiencing many of

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those challenges because of those deep seated trauma at whatever level.

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But they're experiencing that subconscious trauma, that subconscious belief system,

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whatever that happens to be, and literally they're experiencing now

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difficulty in their relationship because of that.

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Almost all of them, if not all. Okay, no, And

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I mean I spend a lot of time sharing with

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people that it's never about the service, it's never about

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what it seems to be about. There's also the conflict.

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Whatever's going on, there's always a deeper meaning, and that

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oftentimes come I mean almost always comes from childhood. Occasionally

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it just comes from big, big traumas that they've experienced

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through their lives. But even that is usually just reinforcing

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these beliefs that we develop as infants. And so I

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did a lot of work with attachment styles and attachment

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styles boiled down to there's kind of core wounds with

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insecure attachment styles, and those are formed in infancy. And

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so somebody with an anxious attachment like myself, the deeper meaning,

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those core issues related to that are fear of rejection

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and abandonment. So for me, in my experience and most

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people with an anxious attachment, almost all the conflict, if

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you really really boil it down, it's going to be

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something to do with rejection or abandonment or something like that.

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Somebody else, for example, an avoidant attachment, could have the

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exact same experience as me, And the core wounds that

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the avoidant attachment are fear of failure and fear of worthlessness.

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So both of us could have the exact same experience.

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I'm going to come out of it feeling rejected. Somebody

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with an avoidant attachment is going to come out of

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it feeling like they failed or they're worthless. And so

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that's kind of that shows up with everyone with however

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their attachment styles, those deeper are those or beliefs that

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they've created, they developed throughout their lives. That's what everything

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kind of comes back to. That's what needs to be

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acknowledged and addressed when you're working on communication. It's not

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just focusing on saying things differently and that kind of stuff.

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You've got to be able to communicate that deeper piece

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that really made me feel rejected or that really made

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me feel like I've failed you.

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Well, you know that's interesting you say that. I am

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a license certified as behavioral analyst, and so I use

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a very specific behavioral questionnaire and one of the things

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that I found and is called the DISC but it's

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much deeper than just the standard DISC test if you've

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heard of that. But what I have found is that

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attachment falls within the right brain invert introvert area of

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a personality, whereas the other one's probably more left brain

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extrovert type of thing. And so, how do you how

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do you help people to understand what their attachment process is?

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Because I know how I do it, but I don't

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know how you do it.

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Yeah, So usually I just you know, kind of say,

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tell me about a recent conflict you've had, or tell

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me about a time that you've been hurt by your partner,

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and I just kind of walk them through it. And

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a question I ask a lot of people is when

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your partner did that, what does that mean about you?

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And so that when they a lot of times they'll say, well,

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it means that that I'm I'm not They don't always

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use the words failing, but it means that I'm not

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getting it right. It means that I keep messing things

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up something like that. Well, that sounds like fear failure.

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To me, that sounds like an avoidant attachment, right, And

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sometimes I kind of work backwards, what is your response, like,

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how did you respond in that conflict? And if it's

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while I really felt I wanted to solve it right away,

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I couldn't let it go. I kept thinking about it.

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I really wanted to talk about it and repair. Well,

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then I've got an idea that that's probably an anxious attachment.

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And so then we kind of worked that way and well,

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you want to dissolve it so quickly because it felt

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like you were being abandoned, right, and so you needed

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that repair to not feel like that. Or if somebody

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says I tend to shut down, you know, well that

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sounds like there's some shame there and you felt like

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you've really messed up or done something that sounds like

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an avoidant attachment.

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Okay. So and as you get and now you're really

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focusing on relationships, as you get these couples coming in

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to see you, and most of the time is it

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couples or once in a while an individual, and then

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you've got to drag the other side in.

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So I try to always start with the couple first

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before doing before the opposite, just so I don't develop

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any kind of bias or anything like that. But I

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do sometimes work with couples, and occasionally I work with

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those one or both members of the couple individually as

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well and to kind of maybe work on some things

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that are out like not completely relational, but still impacting

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the relationship. So sometimes I do that, but generally I

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try to do as much work as I can in

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the presence of both partners. So in couple sessions, I

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find out.

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How do you maintain the aspect of not taking favoritism

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towards one of the individuals? Does that happen? That happens

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a lot.

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Yeah, I don't dig favoritism. However, the way that I

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am trained, I'm trained in relational life therapy. It's different

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than more of the traditional types of therapy, and part

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of relational life therapy is we don't have the perspective

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that everything's fifty to fifty, right and there it's a dynamic,

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so there's contributions from both sides. But sometimes somebody's behavior

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is far more egregious and it's really really impacting the relationship,

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and it's I'm very direct and the way that I'm

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trained is to kind of call that out and say,

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you know, hey, this is this is not helping, this

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is what it's doing to your relationship, and help the

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other partner, you know, communicate that what it's what their

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experience is like in the relationship. But definitely not favoritism,

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but I do sometimes they're you know, not all issues

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are completely balanced fifty to fifty, and I we are

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trained in school that is that is how you work

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in couple's therapy. But sometimes, you know, I feel like

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that really misses some really good opportunities to point out like, hey,

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this is really really making a significant impact in your relationship,

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and like this has to change if you want your

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relationship to change. So I really appreciate that directness and

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kind of not tiptoeing around sometimes the reality of the situation.

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So I'm saying to you he's doing this, he's doing

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that to me, He's doing that to me, you know,

256
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so it's all on him. How often do you look

257
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at that and go, no, actually, it's probably all on you?

258
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A lot a lot of times, very often people come

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into couple's therapy with the expectation that I'm going to

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tell their partner that everything they're doing is wrong. But

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you know, I never take one party word for it. First,

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I get you know both, I always check in like

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do you agree that that was what was happening? And

264
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we kind of break it down. You know. Again, I

265
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don't stay on the surface, so we get deeper and

266
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really see what's going on, what are the impacts. But yeah,

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I mean it's not uncommon that people are just not

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recognizing their their contribution. And sometimes, like I said, a

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lot of times when people do come in with the

270
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expectation I'm going to tell their partner everything that they're

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doing is wrong, that a lot of times that is

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the opposite in those instances.

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So it's so as you experiences, and I know I'm

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trying to de all percentage is tough, but what percentages

275
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they come in, what are the major issues? I know,

276
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certainly infidelity is one of them. Abuse obviously is another

277
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one that I would think would be more difficult to handle.

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But what are the main elements of challenges within a

279
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couple's relationship that you have observed as they come in

280
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to see you for help?

281
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Again, I mean, every single couple will say communication is

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what they need help on, which is and that is

283
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kind of the basis for a lot of things. You know,

284
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if you can develop those communication tools, you can handle

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most of the situations because you'll develop the ability to

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have difficult conversations and resolve conflict and those kinds of things.

287
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Like I said, though, it's not just active listening and

288
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eye statements and all of those things. Those are helpful,

289
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but that's not going to repair communication. So I think

290
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that is being able to get down to those deeper

291
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core wounds, those traumas that are impacting the relationship. And

292
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so that's more of how you improve communication. So it's

293
00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:06.240
really addressing those core wounds and how are you operating?

294
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Are you shutting down? Are you kind of suffocating your partner?

295
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And I try it's really hard to change those behaviors,

296
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So I try to give people tools to just do

297
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that in a more responsible non harmful way, So if

298
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you need to instead of shutting down, maybe taking space

299
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in a responsible way something like that. So that piece,

300
00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:35.000
but also there's a lot of resentments, like long standing resentments,

301
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So people that haven't had these tools for part over

302
00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:42.079
all of their relationship. I mean, I often work with

303
00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:46.640
couples that have been married thirty forty years, and if

304
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they haven't had these tools, that's a lot of resentment

305
00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:54.599
that's built up, you know, so that we've really got

306
00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:58.640
to repair that in order for them to move forward

307
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and be happy and they're reallyationship and be able to

308
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:07.039
even use healthy communication tools without keeling the resentments. When

309
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conflict comes up, it's those resentments are going to keep

310
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kind of getting in the middle of whatever there. It's

311
00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:19.359
going to be deflecting from what the actual situation is

312
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at that time. So if you can't, if you don't

313
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take care of the resentments, they're going to keep coming

314
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in and kind of messing with all the progress they're

315
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trying to make.

316
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Well, And what I hear you talking about as emotions

317
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and really being able to recognize emotions. The other thing

318
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you mentioned that you didn't mention specifically is type of

319
00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:41.279
personality and the reason I bring that up, I smile

320
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because you say, you know, some people just have to

321
00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:46.079
shut the door and go away. I'm one of those.

322
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If I get into if I get into a discussion,

323
00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:51.799
it's like, all right, I need I really get upset.

324
00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:54.119
I need a couple of days just to settle this

325
00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:57.240
down and then let's talk, whereas other people no, right away,

326
00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:59.960
right away, right away. So how do you help those

327
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.720
couples to understand that they have different personalities? In fact,

328
00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:06.559
in most time, in most cases, what I've found is

329
00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:11.880
opposites attract, so they're usually not the same personality. And ultimately,

330
00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:14.680
someone who happens to be very right brain, loves to talk,

331
00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:16.960
live to be around people, wants to get things settled,

332
00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:20.799
is married a left brain individual who just you know,

333
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:23.880
quit talking so much. Just get to the point and

334
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:27.119
if I get upset, just give me some time. So

335
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how do you help people to really understand each other's

336
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:31.759
personalities on that?

337
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:35.880
Yeah, so you know a lot of that is attachment style,

338
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and so the way I would kind of determine whether

339
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it's personality or attachment style would be, do you have

340
00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.799
the capability even though it feels better for you to

341
00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:55.720
take some time, that's okay. Are you able to engage

342
00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:59.599
in that conflict without taking that break if needed. Versus

343
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somebody with that attachment style, They're going to be completely disregulated.

344
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.640
They're going to really really struggle with being able to

345
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:11.680
stay present during that. So in either case, you know,

346
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it's valid that if you do need some space or

347
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:17.559
if you need to connect or anything like that. But

348
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if it is more of an attachment style thing, then

349
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:24.599
like I said, you know, how can you if you

350
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:28.519
really tend to shut down or you get completely disregulated,

351
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:34.559
like maybe take ask your partner for or communicate to them, Hey,

352
00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:36.400
I need a break, I'm going to come back in

353
00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:38.720
two hours. I'm just going to take some time and

354
00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:40.920
kind of chill out and cool off, and then I'll

355
00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:44.240
come back and we can talk about this. And then

356
00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:47.799
you need to actually do that to develop that confidence

357
00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:50.359
in your partner that you'll do that if you're part

358
00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:53.319
if you are someone who needs to kind of resolve

359
00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:57.319
it in that moment, again, just trying to communicate with

360
00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:01.079
your partner how can and sometimes collaborate rate on how

361
00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:03.640
can you get that need meant in a way that

362
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:10.759
doesn't feel overwhelming to your partner and you're right. So

363
00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:15.599
anxious and avoidant attachment styles are opposite, and that is

364
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:22.039
I call them complimentary. And actually, if you can develop

365
00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:27.160
the tools and resources that can be the it usually

366
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.279
is the other than secure and secured the most successful

367
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:34.119
relationship pairing. And so I try to help couples and

368
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:37.160
give them a little hope that you guys can use

369
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:40.359
these because if both of you are shutting down when

370
00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:43.680
there's conflict, that's going to be really difficult because nobody's

371
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:45.839
gonna want to talk about anything. And if both of

372
00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:49.599
you need to resolve immediately, that can come sometimes be

373
00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:55.160
like an explosion and so overwhelming. And so the anxious

374
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:58.119
and avoidant can really balance each other out. You just

375
00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:01.480
have to develop ways to do that without harming your

376
00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:02.960
partner or the relationship.

377
00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:05.839
So as couples are not quite at the point of

378
00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:09.119
coming to see you yet, but they're really struggling, what

379
00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:13.720
would you advise to them as far as recognizing emotions

380
00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:17.920
because emotions bring about behavior. And you know, when I

381
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.440
when I when I was getting certified in this area,

382
00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:24.200
the fellow that was working with us made an interesting call.

383
00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:26.240
It was a joke. He says, all right, here's something

384
00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:29.079
you really should be able to say, but you better

385
00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:31.480
not or you're in deep trouble. And he says, if

386
00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:33.839
you're in an argument with your spouse, you know, it

387
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:36.200
would be nice to say, what emotion just came up

388
00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:39.240
for you that caused you to feel this way, he says,

389
00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:41.039
and you're going to get in any trouble. But if

390
00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:44.200
you reverse that and take the responsibility to say, you

391
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:47.119
know what, when you did that, this is the emotion

392
00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:50.039
that came up in me, and all of a sudden,

393
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:54.400
instead of me blaming you for what I'm experiencing, I'm

394
00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:58.640
taking responsibility for myself and going, wow, you know I

395
00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:03.160
just got triggered. What caused the trigger? And then being

396
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:05.640
able to, you know, obviously get some help in going

397
00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:08.640
back and figuring out what caused the trigger for me

398
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:11.359
to react in that way. And it really has to

399
00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:14.599
do with emotions. How do you help people to gain

400
00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:19.720
the responsibility and the courage to actually look at those triggers,

401
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:24.480
those emotions and recognize that their behavior is a result

402
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:26.599
of those triggers and emotions.

403
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:31.799
Yeah, I think that's a critical piece. Is being able

404
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:38.359
to communicate that I love feelings, lists, feelings, wheels, Otherwise

405
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:41.559
the feelings are going to be usually good, bad, mad,

406
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:44.000
those kinds of things, and that doesn't give you much information.

407
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:46.880
But a lot of times, you know, I'll give people

408
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:50.880
a feelings list and I'll say take the anger category out,

409
00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:53.359
like you're not allowed to give one of the anger

410
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:57.680
feelings because that's almost always covering up something more vulnerable

411
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:04.920
and so communicating that it and oftentimes I'll ask people, Okay,

412
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:09.160
you're feeling disappointed. Put that into words, right, put that

413
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:12.720
feeling into words so your partner can really understand what

414
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:17.279
that's like for you. Also, it's really important to, like

415
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:21.440
you said, own how you're feeling. And feelings are real,

416
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:25.079
you know, they're valid, real no matter what, but they're

417
00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:29.640
also not facts. So keeping that in mind that I

418
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:32.920
can feel rejected from my partner and buy my partner

419
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:37.279
and that's real and that's valid and it's not necessarily

420
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:40.759
a fact that he did reject me, and so I

421
00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:44.079
need to be aware of that. And that's where the

422
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:48.079
relationality comes into play. Right, if your partner, if both

423
00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:51.160
of you can understand that my feeling is real, my

424
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:56.359
feeling is valid and it's not a fact, and so

425
00:25:56.839 --> 00:26:01.599
your partner also hopefully can connect with that so they

426
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:06.160
don't get defensive, right, and they can validate even though

427
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:10.319
they don't agree, but they can look at Okay, I

428
00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:13.720
hear that you're feeling rejected in this moment. That's probably

429
00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:15.640
got to be really hard. Maybe you know, you're probably

430
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:19.759
feeling lonely, maybe confuse that kind of stuff. So the

431
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:23.000
more information that you could give your partner the better.

432
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:28.119
Also staying aware that it's not their responsibility to identify that.

433
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:31.880
Like I said, I do relational life therapy. So the

434
00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:35.640
relational way to do that is sometimes you're going to

435
00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:37.759
be at your best and sometimes you're not going to be.

436
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:42.440
And so in a really healthy relationship, sometimes your partner

437
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:45.400
and this has to happen on both ends, but sometimes

438
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:48.119
your partner can support you in that, like, hey, what's

439
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:51.480
going on here? Can you help help me understand how

440
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:54.200
you're feeling. Maybe they bring out a list, or maybe

441
00:26:54.200 --> 00:26:58.640
they say, you know, say more about that, or and

442
00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:02.519
they can kind of help you up with that sometimes,

443
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:05.359
But for the majority of the time, yeah, you've got

444
00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:09.039
to really understand. And even if again, like if you

445
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:12.200
do go to anger, what would that put the anger

446
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.519
into words? Usually when you do that, you're going to

447
00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:18.279
get the more vulnerable emotion. So I think that that's

448
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:22.200
really important, taking the anger piece out and getting to

449
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:29.039
vulnerable because anger that pushes your partner away, that's an vulnerability.

450
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:33.119
All the other emotions other than any form of anger, frustration,

451
00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:37.759
that kind of stuff that'll typically bring your partner closer,

452
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.920
that'll evoke some empathy. But if you're just saying I'm

453
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:44.640
so mad at you, a lot of times people aren't

454
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:48.160
going to be, like, you know, very respond in that

455
00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:51.039
in a very positive way. But if you say that

456
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:54.480
was really hurtful to me or I really felt rejected

457
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:58.440
in that moment, I understand that that's not necessarily was

458
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:01.599
your intent. You weren't rejected me, and this is still

459
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:05.880
how I'm feeling. So being aware of that and also

460
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.279
being able to communicate without the anger piece, I think

461
00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:11.160
is just critical.

462
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:13.599
Well. And you know, as you talk about that, I

463
00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:16.759
mean what comes to my mind is each individual has

464
00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:19.759
so much work to do on their own because how

465
00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:22.079
on earth can you get to the point of communication

466
00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:25.359
where you can say, hey, honey, I understand where you're

467
00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:27.519
going with that. I want you to know that's not

468
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.279
my intent and that was not what I was intending.

469
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:33.759
But I understand that, and I'm sorry that that's how

470
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:36.279
it came across. But to be able to do that,

471
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:39.119
you've got to have that self image up at a

472
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:41.880
high level. You've got to have that self love at

473
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:45.279
a level, and that communication skill at a level that

474
00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:49.680
you can move your ego aside and really listen and

475
00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:54.119
seek to understand and not judge. So one of the

476
00:28:54.200 --> 00:28:58.000
questions that I know that you had mentioned in your bio,

477
00:28:58.200 --> 00:29:00.920
and I think it's an interesting one and just spend

478
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:02.440
a little bit of time on it. I think one

479
00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:05.319
of the most difficult things I would imagine one of

480
00:29:05.359 --> 00:29:08.799
the most difficult areas is when there's been infidelity, How

481
00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:12.279
on earth do you help people feel from infidelity?

482
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:17.119
Yeah, I am trained in infidelity recovery too, So that is,

483
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:21.640
like you said, a huge relational trauma, and so a

484
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:26.319
huge part of my work is infidelity therapy. I'm trained in.

485
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:33.119
It's called systematic affair recovery therapy, and it's very, very

486
00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:36.720
often it is repairable. A lot of people do not.

487
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:41.799
They come in pretty hopeless with that they're going to

488
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:45.720
be able to get to repair, but it is possible

489
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:50.480
for a lot of situations. The way that I go

490
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:54.359
through that through the way that I'm trained. It's a

491
00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:59.839
very structured process, and how we go through each individual's

492
00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:04.160
history like a family of origin history. Then we go

493
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:08.480
into each individual's relational history, so relationships before that one.

494
00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:13.359
Then that allows us to really see the traumas that

495
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:16.599
that person has experienced, the beliefs that they've developed in

496
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:21.240
their lives, there, the messages they've received about infidelity, all

497
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:24.559
of those things. Then we go into their own relations

498
00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:28.480
like the couple's relational history, and that through that we

499
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:32.279
can really get a deeper understanding of what like what

500
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:36.359
went wrong here, what was happening? How did we you know,

501
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:41.480
how did the relationship get to this point? And so

502
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:45.000
I think that's so important to go through all those

503
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:50.039
pieces so you can really understand. Otherwise it's really hard

504
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:54.000
to make sense of it. And once we get that,

505
00:30:54.440 --> 00:30:56.359
and then the whole we go through the whole story

506
00:30:56.359 --> 00:31:00.319
of the infidelity asked the question, and then the next

507
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:03.839
step is to really acknowledge the impact that the infidelity

508
00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:06.759
has had on your partner, and we go through and

509
00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:11.200
what was that like, how did that impact them as

510
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:14.200
an individual? How did that impact them in terms of

511
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:17.359
your relationship? How did that impact how they see the world,

512
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:20.000
how did that impact how they are as a parent,

513
00:31:20.119 --> 00:31:23.720
how they operate with their friends, how they how their

514
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:27.960
trust is with for everyone else in their life, and

515
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:33.319
really really recognizing rather than I see that I hurt you,

516
00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:38.039
I'm sorry, right, like going deep into that and acknowledging

517
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:44.640
how hurtful this was. Until somebody gets that that real

518
00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:49.480
validation and empathy, it's gonna be hard for them to

519
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:52.640
believe or develop any kind of trust or confidence that

520
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:57.519
it won't happen again, because without that, when they can

521
00:31:57.559 --> 00:32:00.000
demonstrate I understand that hurt this has caused, you have

522
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:04.480
every right to feel this way, that gives often more

523
00:32:04.599 --> 00:32:07.359
confident that, well, if you get now how bad this

524
00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:09.920
hurt me, then I can trust a little bit more

525
00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:12.440
that maybe you won't do this. The next step is

526
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:16.359
developing a plan how to keep this from happening again.

527
00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:19.720
But I have you, I'm sorry. Have you found that

528
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:24.519
there's a common theme as to the cause of infidelity

529
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:26.359
or is it all over the board?

530
00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:32.480
It's a lot of times resentments a huge piece there, right,

531
00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:37.799
and just kind of not having the tools to communicate

532
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:42.960
through however, many years of their relationship to really talk

533
00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:46.079
about how this is what's bothering me? How can we

534
00:32:46.119 --> 00:32:48.480
improve this? And so they're just kind of going on

535
00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:54.279
without resolving these these problems, these issues, and eventually that

536
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:57.319
just pulls them further and further and further apart. And

537
00:32:57.400 --> 00:32:59.200
so a lot of times that's a piece of it,

538
00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:02.920
not all the time. So again that goes back to

539
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:07.559
having the tools. So when we work with something like that,

540
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:11.000
part of that plan going forward is just developing the

541
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:16.880
tools on how to handle these conversations going forward. Sometimes

542
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:20.359
people want to plan for every potential scenario in the

543
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:23.880
future that could happen, but that's not really realistic, and

544
00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:25.920
so I try to tell them we don't have.

545
00:33:25.880 --> 00:33:26.319
To do that.

546
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:30.160
If you just once you have the tools and capability

547
00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:33.359
to talk about these things, anything can come up, and

548
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:35.640
you guys will have the ability to kind of bring

549
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:38.960
it up, have those conversations problem solve to all that

550
00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:39.720
kind of stuff.

551
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:42.039
Well, And you know, I want to go into an

552
00:33:42.200 --> 00:33:45.160
entirely different area now, because you talked about some of

553
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:48.480
the special specialized training you have, and when we get

554
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.839
into deep trauma ATSD and other really deep traumas that

555
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:56.200
people have experienced in your childhood or early life or

556
00:33:56.240 --> 00:34:00.279
even early adult life, you use something called EMDR is

557
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:06.359
eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, and you know, I've heard

558
00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:09.880
of that. I find it fascinating, but what is it

559
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:14.239
and how on earth does that actually help someone to

560
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:16.880
work through this trauma because it seems like it's such

561
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:19.760
a simple thing and yet it has to be very

562
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:20.760
well understood.

563
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:27.400
Yeah, So what MDR is really it's bilateral stimulation. So

564
00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:32.159
even though it's called eye movement desensitization reprocessing, sometimes you

565
00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:35.199
know that can be done with like tapping or any

566
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:38.159
kind of like right to left movement. That's what bilateral

567
00:34:38.199 --> 00:34:43.440
stimulation is. And so the way you it works is

568
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:46.960
we we have to go again to that deeper belief

569
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:50.920
that you have and go back to your earlier experiences

570
00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:54.960
where you've had that right. And so if somebody first,

571
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:58.360
you know, we'll talk about for instance, like a single

572
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:02.320
incident trauma, if somebody maybe had it and was assaulted

573
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:07.320
by something like that, and oftentimes an earlier belief that

574
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:11.239
they had will get reinforced by that trauma. Sometimes it

575
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:15.599
creates a new belief. But so if that created a

576
00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:20.719
belief that, uh, there's something wrong with me, right, I

577
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:23.239
would I'm gonna ask what was the first memory you

578
00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:26.800
have of having that same feeling that there's something wrong

579
00:35:26.840 --> 00:35:29.599
with me? And so we've kind of got to start

580
00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:32.800
there to clear it all the way out, because if

581
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:37.079
we only focus on this first, this single incident, they're

582
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:39.880
still going to have that belief, right, So trauma is

583
00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:44.480
not necessarily what happened, but it's the belief that created

584
00:35:44.599 --> 00:35:48.360
inside of you. So you need to target the belief,

585
00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:53.960
not necessarily the incident. And so we we there's a

586
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:59.079
whole process obviously, but we have people kind of focus

587
00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:03.159
on that memory while we do that bilateral stimulation and

588
00:36:03.400 --> 00:36:08.000
that eventually can desensitize it. So when you experience the trauma,

589
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:11.039
it gets stored in the wrong part of your brain,

590
00:36:11.559 --> 00:36:15.159
and with the bilateral stimulation, we can move it and

591
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:18.039
put it into the right place in your brain, so

592
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:21.880
that will desensitize it. So you're not being so you're

593
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:25.199
not having triggers that'll kind of that will tell me

594
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:29.719
if it's desensitized or not, right then not experiencing the trigger,

595
00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:34.320
and then the reprocessing is taking that belief and changing

596
00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:38.199
it into a more positive belief. So you know, it

597
00:36:38.199 --> 00:36:40.960
can be anything, but a lot of times it's opposite

598
00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:46.920
or close to opposite of that, but reasonable. So you know,

599
00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:49.599
if it's there's something wrong with me was the belief,

600
00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:55.440
then we might try to reprocess there's nothing I'm I

601
00:36:55.480 --> 00:36:58.840
don't I'm not damaged, or I'm worthy of love or

602
00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:03.599
something that will be different opposite of that and change

603
00:37:03.639 --> 00:37:06.039
that belief that they're living with. But we're not going

604
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:08.159
to be able to change that belief if we still

605
00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:12.280
have that earlier root memory of that. And so that's

606
00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:14.239
why we kind of have to start at the beginning

607
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:15.239
and move forward.

608
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:18.559
So as you do that, and I understand exactly what

609
00:37:18.599 --> 00:37:21.400
you're saying, and it's done through NLP has done through it, No,

610
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:23.840
this has done through all ways. You're doing it very

611
00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:27.400
specifical way. But how does the bilateral stimulation me moving

612
00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:29.480
my eyes from right to left to right to left,

613
00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:33.079
are you tapping or me tapping right shoulder, left shoulder,

614
00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:36.960
or listening to music that's bilateral music? How on earth

615
00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:42.840
does that change something subconsciously? Number one and number two

616
00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:45.480
And I think this is really important as I studied

617
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:49.039
this a bit before the interview. There are certain things

618
00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:51.159
we can do on our own. I can send listen

619
00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:54.920
to bilateral movement or music or that and so forth.

620
00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:57.480
But that's not necessarily going to help me. If I've

621
00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:00.840
had deep trauma, I need a therapist who's been trained

622
00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:03.880
to take me through that process. So but how does

623
00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:06.360
how does the bilateral thing even work? It just sounds

624
00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:06.960
so simple.

625
00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:13.360
Yeah, it is. Somehow, when you're moving it from right

626
00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:17.800
to left, it allows your it allows that memory to

627
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:22.039
move into the right place. I don't have all the

628
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:26.280
science down, but it has that ability. And then in

629
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:29.920
addition to that, though, so when you experience a trauma,

630
00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:35.480
and so if you experience an assault on the street

631
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:38.800
and a blue car drives by going forward, a blue

632
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:41.639
car might be a trigger. And when somebody sees a

633
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:44.880
blue card they might have some kind of trauma response.

634
00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:50.280
Well that's called confirming information. So every time that happens,

635
00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:53.960
it confirms to your brain, this is scary, this is dangerous,

636
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:58.199
this is a bad this is bad right, this is

637
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:01.440
our trigger, and so deep reinforcing that in your brain.

638
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:05.519
When you have an experience different from that, especially with

639
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:09.960
a compassionate therapist, you're in a safe scenario. You're like,

640
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:14.559
it's very different than the scenario you had during the trauma.

641
00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:21.880
This is disconfirming information, and so you are doing the

642
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:25.880
bilateral stimulation while you're focusing on that memory with all

643
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:31.360
of this disconfirming information, and so that's disconnecting the wires.

644
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:35.639
So anyone who's really experienced deep trauma, and what would

645
00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:40.519
you say that would be. You've got obviously your your assaults,

646
00:39:40.119 --> 00:39:45.159
you know, whether it's physical, mentally, emotional, physical, whatever that

647
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:48.920
happens to be. You've got PTSD. So you've got these

648
00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:54.559
wonderful people coming back from conflict that have developed major PTSD.

649
00:39:55.159 --> 00:39:58.599
What would you say are the common things that people,

650
00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:02.440
if they're experiencing the need to come see a licensed

651
00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:04.880
therapist such as you rather than trying to fix it

652
00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:05.400
on their own.

653
00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:10.000
I think definitely any kind of assault, like you said,

654
00:40:11.239 --> 00:40:16.679
complex trauma, which is repeated abuse, repeated childhood abuse, usually

655
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:19.800
at the hands of a primary caregiver, that's going to

656
00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:24.960
be really kind of deep into all different kinds of

657
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:29.599
it kind of seeps into all different places of your brain,

658
00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:34.159
of your life, your relationships, all of that. Witnessing any

659
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:41.039
kind of uh, maybe witnessing a car accident or witnessing

660
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:46.320
somebody get hurt or you know, a military somebody who

661
00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:52.480
is in combat maybe right seeing seeing anyone hurt, whether

662
00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:57.119
it's a partner or somebody else kind of that they're

663
00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:02.639
in a team with. But I think any kind of

664
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:07.400
witness to something like that, anything that really resulted in,

665
00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:11.440
like your brain at some point feeling like it couldn't

666
00:41:11.480 --> 00:41:17.920
tolerate what you were experiencing, or feeling any kind of

667
00:41:18.039 --> 00:41:21.159
situation that at that time felt life threatening, whether it

668
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:24.920
actually was or not, that should definitely be done with

669
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:28.199
a license professional. But go ahead.

670
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:30.400
Sorry, yeah, I was going to say, and I think

671
00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:33.199
that's so important for people to understand that. You know,

672
00:41:33.239 --> 00:41:35.000
there's a lot of help for a lot of reasons,

673
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:39.519
the subconscious challenges and so forth, and childhood difficulties, but

674
00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:42.159
when you get to that point, you really need that

675
00:41:42.280 --> 00:41:45.119
licensed therapist to help you. Even though other people say, oh, yeah,

676
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:47.599
I can help you, the reality is you need someone

677
00:41:48.039 --> 00:41:51.360
with your type of expertise to do that. Reason I

678
00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:53.559
interrupt you is because we reinsured on time here is

679
00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:57.039
so I apologize for that. But yeah, going back to

680
00:41:57.159 --> 00:42:01.320
relationships now as we're closing up, would be the message

681
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:04.920
that you'd like to share with the audience about relationships.

682
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:09.639
So often people get so discouraged with their or even

683
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:13.880
hopeless about their relationship, you know, thinking this can't be saved.

684
00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:16.119
This is kind of we're not going to make it.

685
00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:23.679
But so many times it's totally fixable, you know, whether

686
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:27.880
you get that help with therapy, with you know, reading books,

687
00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:33.239
doing online courses, doing you know, virtual trainings or lectures,

688
00:42:33.320 --> 00:42:36.000
anything like that. But kind of I want people to

689
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:39.840
have hope that it's a lot of things are fixable.

690
00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:44.000
It just you need the tools because really people sometimes

691
00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:48.679
get so discouraged and hopeless and so to really give it,

692
00:42:49.159 --> 00:42:51.360
try to use those tools, try to develop those tools

693
00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:52.320
and see what happens.

694
00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:57.679
Great, Yaleen, thanks so much. The thing that fascinates me

695
00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:00.960
is here we here, we are having the great conversation,

696
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:07.159
and time's gone by so quickly. How do people find you?

697
00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:09.519
How do people find you if they are looking for

698
00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:09.960
your help?

699
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:15.559
Yeah, my website is Southdeenvertherapy dot com and also the

700
00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:19.800
name of my practice. Also on Instagram, Facebook, you can

701
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:21.679
find me on South dever Therapy.

702
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:25.119
Okay, and for trauma, they have to be in the

703
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:26.199
state of California.

704
00:43:26.360 --> 00:43:28.960
They have to at Colorado. They need to be actually

705
00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:32.199
located in there so they don't have to live there.

706
00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:34.559
But in order to do the work, they need to

707
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:37.760
be at that time located in Colorado.

708
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:40.039
Now that's for trauma or is that for relationship?

709
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:45.119
That's for therapy, any kind of therapy, especially including any

710
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:48.119
kind of trauma. Right if they're looking for tools and

711
00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:51.559
general conflict resolution kind of stuff, that's where some coaching

712
00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:54.719
could come in kind of anywhere in the world. But

713
00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:58.559
to do some deep trauma work or deep therapy, they

714
00:43:58.559 --> 00:44:01.119
need to be at the time of treatment located in

715
00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:02.039
the state of Colorado.

716
00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:04.840
Great, hey, thank you so much. And I think what

717
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:07.880
impressons me most was the very first question I asked you,

718
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:10.559
Why on earth are you doing in a podcast when

719
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:14.480
you know it's you haven't written a book or maybe

720
00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:17.280
you have, but we're not trying to promote anything. You know,

721
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:20.000
you're just here to help people, And I just want

722
00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:22.320
to give you kudos for that that you were just

723
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:24.840
here to help people and anything that we can talk

724
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:28.559
about might lead them to either seek your help or

725
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:31.199
if they're not in the state of you know, Colorado,

726
00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:35.039
they can seek a license qualified therapist to get some help.

727
00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:36.400
Yeah, thank you.

728
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:39.440
So much, sir, Thank you, Thank you folks, Thanks for listening.

729
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:43.000
Hope you enjoyed it, and as usual, my goodbye is

730
00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:44.280
no mistake.