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Oct. 6, 2026

Beyond Self Improvement: The Quiet Work of Human Becoming

Beyond Self Improvement: The Quiet Work of Human Becoming
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Self improvement is where most of us begin. But what comes after, once we have studied ourselves and named our patterns? Richard, a university professor, coach, and author of A Phenomenal Life, joins Dr. Doug to talk about human becoming: letting go in small pieces, listening to what our triggers are trying to tell us, and why judgment quietly closes the door on curiosity.A slow conversation for anyone who senses there is something waiting on the other side of self work.www.aphenomenallife.co.uk

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We'll be right back. I have spent years in conversation

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with people who are successful by every measure and still

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quietly restless, not broken, not lost, just aware somewhere underneath

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the noise that there is a version of their life

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that feels more honest, more grounded, more genuinely theirs. This

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podcast exists for those people, for the ones who are

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done performing and ready to go deeper. My name is Dr.

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Doug.

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Welcome to Inspire Vision. I'm glad you were here. Richard,

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welcome to the show.

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Thank you very much, Dr. Doug.

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I'm very happy to be here. I'm pleased to have

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you here. So, with the accent, and you're probably thinking

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about my accent too, but where are you from?

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Yeah, I'm operating just outside London in the UK this morning.

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Oh, wonderful. Okay. So, What I'd love for you to

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do is kind of share the audience a little bit

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of your background, just kind of briefly what your background is.

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Thank you. Yes, I currently work at a university as

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an associate professor, but I've been a coach and worked

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in science for 35 years. And yeah, I just had

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this unending curiosity with mankind, with humanity. with the way

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that people behave, the way that all of us behave,

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that in my own behavior, everybody else's. And that curiosity

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has just driven me in so many different directions. And yeah,

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it's come about and it's got me thinking a lot

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and it's got me working towards, yeah, some certain philosophies

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that we can explore a little bit today.

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Yes, and you work with, you're still involved with the university?

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Yes, still involved with the university, yes.

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And what area is your area of expertise with the university?

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Oh, well, yeah, it's actually in the sciences. It's actually

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in microbiology and things like this. But the coaching I've

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been doing has been alongside that and coaching colleagues and

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coaching people outside. So I've had this wonderful opportunity to

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be immersed in science at the same time as, yeah,

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following my own passion, which is exploring people.

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You know, and it is so interesting that I've developed

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something that comes from a very well-known business behavioral analysis,

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and I've converted it into something called what I call

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a personal portrait. And the reason I've done that is

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that so often, and you may identify with this, not personally,

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but with the people you've worked with, is so often

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we find ourselves in a profession that is not necessarily

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fulfilling those inner needs and motivations, and we find ourselves

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doing either something entirely different, not being happy, or doing

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something in addition to, such as what you're doing. And

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I find that so fascinating. For me, I'm not sure

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that I would have been doing this except I was

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no longer able to practice dentistry, and suddenly, All of

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a sudden, I'm trying to do something else. I did

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some business consulting and so forth. But ultimately, you know,

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something really came to me that said, you know what,

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you need to be doing something different. So that's what

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I'm doing now. But it sounds like you've gone through

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a similar thing. You're loving what you do at the university,

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but you also have this passion for helping people to

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understand themselves more.

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Yeah and dr d you're absolutely right and it's always

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been there and i think that a lot of people

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operate with these multiple identities um that that can express

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themselves in different ways and yeah i love certain aspects

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of science i love um i love the way it's

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structured i love the inquiries it generates but i know

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it has its limits and i've you know it's there's

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So I've always felt, do you know what? Having a

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foot in different worlds means you belong to either, but

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you can occupy all of them. And that's the way

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I think it's been a really useful way to live

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because it gives you so many different perspectives as well

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with which you can approach your experiences and the things

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that you learn.

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Well, and you know, one of the things that really

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caught my eye about you as I was looking at

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your biography and so forth and some of the things

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that you are doing and talking about is this concept

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of self-improvement to human becoming. And, you know, I've looked

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at that. I've done so many podcasts and, you know,

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so often it's focused obviously on self-improvement. But over the years,

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I have kind of come to a similar understanding the

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way that you just, you know, have you made that

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comment that, if we keep focusing on self-improvement, that's not

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really the goal. The goal is to become. And there's

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a big difference between self-improvement, trying to reach a certain whatever,

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and truly just beginning to understand, and what I call

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it is just acquire return to who you genuinely are.

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And you're talking about a human becoming. So talk a

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little bit about where that motivation and that thought process

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and that concept came up for you?

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Yeah, that's a great question, and I'm really glad to

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jump in on this one. So, yeah, the self-improvement, it's

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where everybody starts, and I'm judging from what I've listened

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to from this pod, Dr. Doug, I know that your listeners,

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most of those, will be enlightened, they'll be curious, they

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will be you know, informed in many ways. They've also

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looked and probably studied themselves. They probably understand themselves quite well.

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So that's all great. I mean, you know, the know thyself,

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the Greeks gave us, the self-inquiry, which psychology encourages, and

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the disattachment to ego, which they do in Buddhist countries,

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like the one you're living in. So all these things

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are great, but then when we get to there, when

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we get to this place of awakening, I could call it,

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if you like, What then? So what do we go

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from there? And I think that's where a second journey begins.

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And that's what we're talking about. You call it coming home.

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I absolutely love that. I call it human becoming as well.

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So what are we becoming? And I think this comes

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from the concept that life is still going to change us.

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We're still going to have experiences, seeing beauty, feeling awe,

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being rejected, grief, all these things that will happen. to

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us in this human existence and they're all going to

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change us slightly and then what are we going to

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do with that learning we get from that change and

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that's that's where i see us if we can find

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a way to integrate that um and become wiser then

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it we when we're growing um and what we're growing

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into i don't know but it's certainly it it's it's

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i think it yeah coming home possibly coming home to

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a unity which we we sense is out.

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There yeah and you know it's interesting um When I

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moved to Thailand and obviously started really being fascinated by Buddhism,

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and I come from an entirely different theology than that,

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but what I found fascinating was this concept of reincarnation.

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My curiosity and my approach goes to, okay, I understand

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what he's talking about based on his understanding of things,

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but what could it really be meaning? And I just

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wrote an article for Substack talking about the fact that

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we live many lives before we die. And we can

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be reborn so many times. And that's not a Christian thing.

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It's just the fact that we're reborn so many times

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in our lives. And I think that as you're talking

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about that, how often we find that as we're experiencing

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change in our lives, we're literally... starting a new life,

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starting a new process and a new experience. And sometimes

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it's for the good and sometimes it's not for the good.

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And I think the real question that comes to my

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mind and I want to ask you about and talk

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to you about is how do people start to choose

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to move their lives in a direction that is positive,

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that starts to bring about that sense of joy and

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peace rather than what we are seeing so much now

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is anger and frustration.

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Yes the the death and rebirth cycle i love that

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um stan groff talks a lot about that our life

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is full of those cycles and in fact even birth

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itself is a is like the death of the birth

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stage and the birth of the life you know it's

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we go through those um and it's interesting you mentioned

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about reincarnation i read something which really resonated me recently

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which was uh Why is being born twice any more

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remarkable than being born once?

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It makes no sense.

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But yeah, going back to your question, how do we grow?

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Because you can change without growing. but you can't grow

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without changing. So yeah, it does mean we have to

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let things go. It does mean little parts of us

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will die and we will be reborn. And there's obviously

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resistance and there's always fear with letting things go when

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it's part of ourselves. But we can do it a

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little bit at a time and we can grow and

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we can change. yeah, we can become more human and more, more,

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more of that coming home sense of unity. But we do,

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and we, it's very difficult to let go of everything

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at once. We can't do that. It's, it's not, it's

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too dangerous. It's too psychologically difficult. Um, but we can

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do it in stages. We can let go a little

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bit to ourself, which are not serving us. And I

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think that comes about through that self inquiry we've already

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mentioned and the, and the self improvement. Um, and there's

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loads of different ways of doing that. I appreciate every

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single one. Um, you know, whatever works for people, absolutely,

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but yeah, the knowledge of, even so simple as like,

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as you mentioned there, anger, okay, if we find ourselves

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getting angry a lot, then what is triggering us? Because

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it's no longer the world, it's now something in us,

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it's not out there in the world, because we participate

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in what we experience, and that's, that's very much at

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the heart of my interest in phenomenology, you know, the

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fact that nothing happens, we are not passive observers on

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a world, like we create the world which we experience,

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so yeah, it's down to us, so what do we

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want to let go of, what do we know about

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ourselves which passively we don't need anymore?

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Well, and you know, as you were talking, what comes

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to my mind is, I just did a podcast a

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few weeks ago, and one of the things that that

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he said that I thought was so resonating to me

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is that so often we say, I am angry. I'm this,

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I'm that. And the reality is that, no, that's not

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who I am. I am feeling anger. I am feeling frustration.

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And I think that as people begin to separate that out,

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it starts to separate that whole concept of who do

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I become? Because my emotions are responding, you know, You

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and I can see a similar event and you might

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just look at it and go, oh, wow, that's such

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interesting that that happened or it's a shame that that happened.

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And I can look at it and go, oh, get

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so angry about it and so forth. And it has

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nothing to do with who we are, well, to some degree,

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but it does have to do with how we have

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allowed our emotions to begin to control our response To events. Yeah.

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Yes, yes, absolutely we do. There's a wonderful book, I

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don't know if you're familiar with it, it's called The

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Presence Process by, I think it's Peter Smith, I think

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it's him. He talks about the triggers and he says

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you shouldn't see them as these triggers, you should see

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them as messages. Messages that there's something about you you

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still need to learn about yourself when you find yourself

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feeling the anger or feeling irritation or feeling jealousy or

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feeling you know any of these like emotions which we

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all recognize and as you say we identify with them

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very easily i'm jealous today or i'm angry or i'm

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irritated or i'm frustrated but if we look inside and

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look at the message what's the message behind that that

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that sensation and we can learn a lot about things

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of that maybe has happened to us in the past

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that maybe we can work through maybe we need help

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to work through and and eventually we can get to

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the place where well we're a I think that's a

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direction of human becoming.

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As well and you know I think that curiosity is

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so important I've had the opportunity to use NLP a

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bit with some people that I've worked with and what

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I find interesting is their responses to events or what's

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going on in their lives as we start to go

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back and identify where did that originate I had one

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client that called me, he just kept making decisions that

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he was not happy with, but he kept making them.

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He says, Doug, I really need to talk to you.

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And he's a good friend of mine, so I said, yeah,

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come on over. I said, let's try some NLP. And

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as we did that, we got back to his early

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childhood where he had experienced something in elementary school that

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was so unfortunate, but I think so many students experience this,

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that they've got a teacher that decides that they're going

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to decide the value of a child. And in his case,

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he was sent to the back of the room, told

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he was stupid, and on and on. And as we

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went through that, and as we started to reframe it

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and talk about it and say, you know what, was

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this about you or was this about that teacher? And

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the emotions that they were going through, whatever they're dealing with.

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And as we got through that, it made all the

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difference in the world to him. He made some incredible

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decisions about his work and so on and so forth.

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And It just made such a difference. And I think

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for people to understand that, you know, those emotions that

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we're experiencing are not necessarily ours. They were created in

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our childhood or otherwise in experiences that we perceived and

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decided this is what it means. When if we really

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go back now more as an adult and look at that,

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we may decide that as we reframe that, we realize

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that it had nothing to do with us. It had

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everything to do with whomever.

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Yeah, that's a wonderful story. Thanks for sharing that, Dr. Doug.

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I think that we all have those, not necessarily, obviously,

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exactly the same as that, but we've all had incidents

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in our past. You've got to remember when we, you know,

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in our formative years there, the things that adults do

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have great importance and meaning. They have authority and we

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may store them away and Carl Jung said, until you

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make the unconscious conscious, it will guide you and you

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will call it fate. And that's a great example of that.

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He had this belief about himself installed, planted like this

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seed in a very young age. And I think you've

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done a wonderful service there through that NLP session, yeah,

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to identify that. That's wonderful. Setting him free.

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Well, and you talk about removing, and I go back

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and forth on this, you know, initially as I was

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talking to people and as I do, and it's like, okay,

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you bring it up and you remove it from your life.

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And more and more, and I do a lot of meditation,

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so a lot of things do come up for me.

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And more and more, I'm beginning to think that rather

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than removing, let's understand it, accept it, understand that it's

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part of our life, and then set it aside. And

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I think from the standpoint of neurological pathways there's there's

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an interesting fact that we can take this pathway that's

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been so strong in our lives and literally move it

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to the side and develop a new neurological pathway that

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is an entirely different experience in our lives what are

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your thoughts.

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On that yeah yes yes yes completely because the the

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you're absolutely right the neurological pathway was fixed it was

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it was a motorway it was a it was a

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rigid only path through this i have to repeat this

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pattern in order to because that's the solution that i

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know and i understand and i'm used to so yeah

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you look at it you approach it from a different

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angle you understand it as you say you don't have

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to dismantle it you can leave it there and it

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become your friend almost you can You can wave to

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it every time it appears in a certain experience. And

294
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you can go, oh, hello, my friend. We're not going

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to go there today because I have other options now.

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I know myself better now. So, yeah, you take away

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the power from the things you know by examining these things.

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You don't have to remove them. They don't have to,

299
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you know, just to work through them. It's to remove

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the power that they have. And they are part of us.

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I mean, we can't grow. in this human existence without

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bumping into problems and difficult situations and things that hurt

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us physically, mentally. But that's, the Buddha said himself, he said,

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life is suffering. This is what we signed up for.

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So it's going to come. And we have to accept that.

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And I love the fact that you bring up the Buddha.

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He does talk about life is suffering, but then he's

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got those four steps that, well, at least that we

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can experience, where, you know, we're suffering, we're beginning to

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understand we're suffering, we learn not to suffer, even though

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we're having the same experiences, like I was saying before

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when I was using the example of you and me.

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You know, you're not suffering, I'm suffering, I'm getting angry,

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I'm doing this, I'm doing that. And yet, and I

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think this goes universal It doesn't matter whether you're Buddhist

316
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or Christian or whatever that happens to be. The reality

317
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is that we can achieve a level of non-suffering if

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we choose to.

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Yes, if we choose to. In my book, A Phenomenal Life,

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I produced a framework called the Orbits of Consciousness, which

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is it was really it's just a map it designed

322
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really for a coach as a coaching tool but a

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map of how people have experienced the world and we

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can occupy any number of probably an infinite number of

325
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orbits but i broke them down into five and and

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yeah the other orbits are only a fraction of an

327
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inch away how we want to experience the world we

328
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have a great deal more control than we actually think

329
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that we do and i think that once we do

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know ourselves quite well and we we can bring in

331
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these patterns which will lift our consciousness which gives us

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better options um you know more access to knowledge, to relationship,

333
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to understanding, to nuance, to making connections. And we're not

334
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just passive in this universe. We're part of it, and

335
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we can create what we want it to be.

336
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Well, and I'd love for you to talk about the

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book a bit. Talk about those five different areas of

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the orbits of consciousness. I think that would be really

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fascinating for the audience to understand what you have developed

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and your perception and understanding of that. So feel free

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to just go through each one of those, uh, and

342
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let's talk about it.

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Yeah, sure. I mean, actually it's, uh, um, almost on

344
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those same Buddhist principles of closest to the ego. And

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I could, I saw it more like an atom, um,

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where the ego at the very center or a planet,

347
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you know, planetary system or a galaxy, whatever you want

348
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to call it. So you've got the, at the very center,

349
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you have the ego. And if we're very close to

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the ego, That's the lowest orbit I call the darkest places,

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the orbit of dark places. And that's when we feel grief, self-loathing, anger,

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you know, terrible things, which when we get stuck in

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rumination patterns and we can't get out of those and

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we can with help or we might be able to

355
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wriggle out ourselves or it may need medical intervention, you know,

356
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heavy depression, that type of thing. You know, it's a

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normal human place. We all know those experiences. We've all

358
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felt those at times. And hopefully we've found our way

359
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out of those.

360
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How does that, what does that have to do with

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the ego? I mean, and when I think of the ego,

362
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I think of it as something entirely different, you know.

363
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On a negative side, I need, I want a better house,

364
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I want a better car, I want this, I want

365
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that to make me feel better about myself and so forth.

366
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You're talking about ego relative to grief and sadness and

367
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loss and Help me to understand that a little bit.

368
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Yeah, the distance from the ego will become a little

369
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bit of self as we go on. I think it's

370
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with the self-loathing and the other heavy things we feel.

371
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We don't feel that we can make decisions. We don't

372
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feel as if there's any room. We feel very, very tight, restricted,

373
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no connection to ourselves, to our own senses, to other people,

374
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and very isolated. And I put that down to it

375
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can be because we are stuck in a very dense place,

376
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very close to the ego. Now, if, for example, we

377
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can give ourselves a little bit more space to move out,

378
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a little bit of room, I go to the next

379
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orbit up is the orbit of the oppressed. So it's

380
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still not great. We've still got access to things which

381
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are holding us back. But there's a little bit more

382
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room and we can start to connect more with our

383
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own sensations, with our own body. And we can start

384
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to see more options because when we're stuck in dark places,

385
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we have no options. We can't see them. We're really trapped.

386
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And we can keep going further out to the outer

387
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orbits of the orbit of sustaining. It's a very normal

388
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place for people to be. There's still lots of ways

389
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we can get sucked in. There's other ways that we

390
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can lift ourselves out as well. And then there's the

391
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orbit of wholesome existence, when we suddenly feel a lot

392
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more calm, comfortable, in a state of flow. You know,

393
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lots of compassion for the people around us and happiness

394
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and kindness. And it all comes easily. And then finally,

395
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the spiritual orbit at the top, which is probably unattainable

396
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for most people most of the time. I think everyone

397
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can get in there. And when you're in a state

398
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of awe, you think you feel that. When you're in

399
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a heavy state of flow through dance or work or sport,

400
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whatever that is, or prayer, we can find ourselves up

401
00:24:00.339 --> 00:24:01.819
there for short times. And I think we like to

402
00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:04.400
come back to those places because that's where we are

403
00:24:04.460 --> 00:24:07.769
no longer associated, attached to our ego at all. It

404
00:24:07.809 --> 00:24:12.589
becomes timelessness. It's not about us. We suddenly feel connected

405
00:24:12.690 --> 00:24:15.019
much more to the world around us. So that's where

406
00:24:15.059 --> 00:24:17.259
I think that the whole scale of the ego comes

407
00:24:17.299 --> 00:24:20.460
into it. The more we move away from ourselves, get

408
00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:22.680
out of our own way, the more that we can

409
00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:26.599
open up potentials and possibilities for the world around us. Now,

410
00:24:26.619 --> 00:24:29.759
this was a tool, and I brought it together just

411
00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:32.720
because I could see how people change through a coaching conversation.

412
00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:37.630
You could lift them from one orbit to another and

413
00:24:37.670 --> 00:24:39.750
completely change their outlook on how they saw the world.

414
00:24:39.829 --> 00:24:41.970
It's almost like the pair of glasses that people walk.

415
00:24:42.369 --> 00:24:45.910
that when you're wearing red glasses, everything looks red. But

416
00:24:45.930 --> 00:24:47.849
if you can get them to try on some yellow glasses,

417
00:24:47.890 --> 00:24:50.230
then everything looks yellow, which may be better. It may

418
00:24:50.250 --> 00:24:52.309
be a better world for them to look through, a

419
00:24:52.329 --> 00:24:54.170
better world for them to experience.

420
00:24:54.430 --> 00:24:57.970
Well, you know, you talk about grief, you talk about loss,

421
00:24:59.150 --> 00:25:04.190
and we all experience that. So it's not anything that

422
00:25:05.109 --> 00:25:09.289
anyone is going to experience. They just do. But what

423
00:25:09.329 --> 00:25:13.720
I find interesting is for some people, They experience it,

424
00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:17.660
they live with it for a bit, and then, as

425
00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:19.519
you say, they let it go or they move it

426
00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:23.519
to the side. There are others that experience it, and

427
00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:27.220
suddenly they have become at the effect of that. And

428
00:25:27.259 --> 00:25:31.640
that grief, that loss, whatever it does, seems to control

429
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:35.400
their lives. And they can't seem to move it to

430
00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:39.420
the side. Why is that? And how do you help

431
00:25:39.460 --> 00:25:42.309
people that are experiencing that as you're working with them

432
00:25:42.980 --> 00:25:46.950
to to move from being at the effect of that

433
00:25:47.690 --> 00:25:51.109
and literally then learn to be able to say okay

434
00:25:51.390 --> 00:25:54.950
it's okay to experience this but it's also okay to

435
00:25:55.019 --> 00:25:58.440
move it to the side so it's no longer controlling me.

436
00:26:00.339 --> 00:26:02.759
It's it's yeah it's something as you say dr doug

437
00:26:02.779 --> 00:26:06.579
that everyone experiences and everything everybody will experience and there

438
00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:09.190
are of course there's no quick fixes it's grief it's

439
00:26:09.289 --> 00:26:12.240
the uh It's one of the most difficult things we

440
00:26:12.259 --> 00:26:15.539
can work through. And I use the word work through

441
00:26:15.579 --> 00:26:17.579
because it is a process and it's not a process

442
00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:19.640
we can come out the other side and be unchanged.

443
00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:22.440
This is one of the fundamental things which will change

444
00:26:22.539 --> 00:26:25.339
us because we have to let go of a part

445
00:26:25.380 --> 00:26:28.920
of ourselves. We have to let go of a world

446
00:26:29.380 --> 00:26:32.700
with the other person and that world is now gone. Now,

447
00:26:33.380 --> 00:26:35.410
how is it going to change us? What sort of

448
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:39.349
person do we have to become to carry on without

449
00:26:39.390 --> 00:26:42.490
that person in our life and it's a process to

450
00:26:42.529 --> 00:26:44.190
get to that and let's know there are no quick

451
00:26:44.210 --> 00:26:47.539
fixes dr doug all we can do is um just

452
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:52.579
talk about well what we've lost um that how did

453
00:26:54.099 --> 00:26:56.160
you know what did it tell us about how much

454
00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:58.400
that person meant to us you know if something is

455
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:01.119
worth if something is worth grieving it must have been

456
00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:03.420
worth loving so let's talk about what that was about

457
00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:06.480
um and what that meant to us and and how

458
00:27:06.539 --> 00:27:08.880
can we learn to live with the world when that

459
00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:13.660
is not with us. And I don't know, it's very hard.

460
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:15.559
I think people do find a way, and it's not

461
00:27:15.619 --> 00:27:19.400
they find a way to stop thinking about what they've lost,

462
00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:21.900
but what they do is find a way to live

463
00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:26.910
with that grief and almost befriend it and just to

464
00:27:26.950 --> 00:27:27.829
see a way forward.

465
00:27:29.470 --> 00:27:33.450
Well, and as I see it, and you're specifically talking

466
00:27:33.490 --> 00:27:38.190
about the loss of a loved one, and obviously... You know,

467
00:27:38.309 --> 00:27:42.390
as we experience that, the other part of that, I think,

468
00:27:42.450 --> 00:27:47.730
becomes this concept of gratitude and recognizing that if we

469
00:27:47.769 --> 00:27:51.079
focus on, you know, what can I be grateful for

470
00:27:51.490 --> 00:27:54.539
while they were in my life? What did they do?

471
00:27:54.599 --> 00:27:56.920
You know, what can I be grateful for? And I

472
00:27:56.980 --> 00:28:02.700
think just that mind shift becomes so vastly different in

473
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:07.390
our ability then to move forward with life. We also

474
00:28:07.450 --> 00:28:12.390
have a lot of people that are experiencing grief, trauma,

475
00:28:13.299 --> 00:28:20.519
loss that is really deep. And I'm not sure it's

476
00:28:20.599 --> 00:28:25.880
necessarily something particularly with trauma that we can say, okay,

477
00:28:25.940 --> 00:28:27.980
what can I be grateful for in this? What have

478
00:28:28.069 --> 00:28:32.210
I learned? And so how do you help those people

479
00:28:32.309 --> 00:28:37.700
who have experienced that type of deep trauma whether it's emotional, physical,

480
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:42.009
whatever it happens to be that, how do you help

481
00:28:42.049 --> 00:28:43.480
them to move forward?

482
00:28:45.970 --> 00:28:48.210
Yeah, I think it depends where they are in their

483
00:28:48.250 --> 00:28:52.049
lives with that. I think it's absolutely medical help. Um,

484
00:28:52.269 --> 00:28:54.109
it has to be paramount. It has to be number one.

485
00:28:54.750 --> 00:28:57.349
I think that as, as it depends, you know, the

486
00:28:57.390 --> 00:28:59.930
relationships I have with that person, all I can do,

487
00:28:59.950 --> 00:29:03.369
or all any of us can do really is understand that,

488
00:29:03.670 --> 00:29:08.329
you know, they're going through that. Um, they they if

489
00:29:08.349 --> 00:29:10.910
they're carrying that trauma they may have found a way

490
00:29:10.950 --> 00:29:13.369
to live with it maybe they've found a way to

491
00:29:13.630 --> 00:29:16.839
accept it maybe they're still working through it um we

492
00:29:16.950 --> 00:29:19.259
just have to understand what other people everybody's going through

493
00:29:19.299 --> 00:29:21.619
something that you can't see and all we can do

494
00:29:21.660 --> 00:29:24.420
is love them and just try and um yeah give

495
00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:27.680
them the space where they can they can either you

496
00:29:27.700 --> 00:29:29.660
know find a way to work through it or find

497
00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:32.029
medical ways to work through it or just live with

498
00:29:32.049 --> 00:29:36.230
it it's very difficult and everybody carries some degree of

499
00:29:36.269 --> 00:29:36.970
trauma with.

500
00:29:36.869 --> 00:29:42.730
Them and often times often times particularly with physical trauma

501
00:29:42.829 --> 00:29:47.690
and emotional trauma they end up attracting the same people

502
00:29:48.430 --> 00:29:51.630
over and over again they get out of one relationship

503
00:29:51.690 --> 00:29:56.140
they move into another one and it's similar different but

504
00:29:56.200 --> 00:30:01.289
similar because they're still experiencing it and how do you,

505
00:30:01.829 --> 00:30:04.250
you know, what is your step number four? Remind me

506
00:30:04.289 --> 00:30:07.089
the word that you use for explaining step number four.

507
00:30:08.509 --> 00:30:10.450
Um, it was step number four. It was, uh, the

508
00:30:10.470 --> 00:30:13.319
wholesome existence. It's the orbit, uh, that I was talking about.

509
00:30:13.339 --> 00:30:14.099
Is that what you mean?

510
00:30:14.359 --> 00:30:14.619
Yes.

511
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:17.079
The one I was talking about, the orbits. Yeah.

512
00:30:17.380 --> 00:30:17.599
Okay.

513
00:30:17.619 --> 00:30:19.420
So these orbits that, I mean, we can cycle in

514
00:30:19.460 --> 00:30:23.200
them out, out of them every day, um, multiple times

515
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:26.329
per day, but yeah, now the, um, it's not, it's

516
00:30:26.369 --> 00:30:28.869
not a journey from the center to the outside. It's

517
00:30:28.890 --> 00:30:31.900
certainly not. It's, um, It's a way that we can

518
00:30:31.940 --> 00:30:36.029
see the world, I should say. It's just a framework.

519
00:30:36.109 --> 00:30:38.809
I'm not proposing that this is the way it will operate,

520
00:30:38.829 --> 00:30:40.369
but it's a framework that seems to work.

521
00:30:40.390 --> 00:30:42.930
But the word that you were using, I'm trying to

522
00:30:42.970 --> 00:30:49.150
remember the word you were using to describe that fourth orbit.

523
00:30:49.490 --> 00:30:51.349
Wholesome existence, I called it.

524
00:30:51.569 --> 00:30:57.930
Okay, existence. And you're saying wholesome existence, but how often

525
00:30:57.970 --> 00:31:01.789
do we find that Our existence is one of just

526
00:31:01.849 --> 00:31:07.319
continually living the same life and not changing it and

527
00:31:07.380 --> 00:31:09.569
yet not enjoying it.

528
00:31:11.660 --> 00:31:14.759
Yeah, that's usually when we're stuck in the oppressed, somewhere

529
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:17.500
like that where we can't, it's very difficult to get out.

530
00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:20.039
And it may be unconscious processes which are holding us in.

531
00:31:20.619 --> 00:31:25.369
It may be that the trauma is restricting us and

532
00:31:25.410 --> 00:31:30.910
preventing us from experiencing genuine happiness, genuine freedom. genuine um

533
00:31:32.430 --> 00:31:39.829
expansiveness that you know we can feel and uh there's

534
00:31:39.930 --> 00:31:43.690
there's there's ways you know i thought tremendous compassion for

535
00:31:43.730 --> 00:31:46.039
anyone who's going through those things and i'd urge them

536
00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:47.670
to see what do what they can to try and

537
00:31:47.710 --> 00:31:49.500
work through that it's not always easy it's not always

538
00:31:49.539 --> 00:31:51.900
possible um but i always think there is a way

539
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:54.819
um i have to believe that because i'm a i'm

540
00:31:54.859 --> 00:31:57.539
an optimist and i'm a humanist and i believe that

541
00:31:57.740 --> 00:32:00.190
um You know, there's always a way.

542
00:32:00.950 --> 00:32:03.930
Well, and, you know, you get into ego, and obviously

543
00:32:03.970 --> 00:32:08.750
there's different definitions of ego. But one of the things

544
00:32:08.789 --> 00:32:11.150
that I've seen you talk about a little bit is

545
00:32:11.269 --> 00:32:16.640
this concept of judging others. And I think that, you know,

546
00:32:18.180 --> 00:32:20.259
I see that a lot. In fact, I was just

547
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:24.420
asking a minister the other day, what is the biggest

548
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:28.390
challenge you have with your people in the congregation? And

549
00:32:29.029 --> 00:32:32.549
he says, you know, it's the gossip, it's the judging,

550
00:32:33.210 --> 00:32:38.269
it's that type of thing. And when we experience that

551
00:32:38.349 --> 00:32:40.789
in our lives, what are we missing? What are we

552
00:32:40.890 --> 00:32:43.529
losing because we're judging?

553
00:32:45.269 --> 00:32:50.000
We're losing opportunity. We're losing possibility. judging is certainty and

554
00:32:50.019 --> 00:32:52.220
we're just letting go of curiosity we're dropping it on

555
00:32:52.259 --> 00:32:54.220
the floor at that stage dr doug we are going

556
00:32:54.289 --> 00:32:56.049
okay i know this i've seen it before this is

557
00:32:56.069 --> 00:32:59.890
what this is all about but actually judgment what it's

558
00:32:59.910 --> 00:33:02.390
doing really is it's setting a barrier down between us

559
00:33:02.630 --> 00:33:05.369
and it may not even be another person it may

560
00:33:05.450 --> 00:33:09.289
be a situation it may be you know an item

561
00:33:09.309 --> 00:33:11.759
of clothing whatever it is you shouldn't judge anything you're

562
00:33:12.039 --> 00:33:15.660
separating it the curiosity is gone um and i think

563
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:20.400
certainty is an illusion and curiosity is the way forward

564
00:33:20.420 --> 00:33:23.789
with things so yeah and actually within that I'm just

565
00:33:23.809 --> 00:33:26.049
going to very briefly back to the orbits of consciousness

566
00:33:26.730 --> 00:33:28.809
I called it a ceiling of judgment around the level

567
00:33:28.829 --> 00:33:31.690
of sustaining that you can't actually break into higher orbits

568
00:33:31.950 --> 00:33:33.809
unless you let go of the judgment because you don't

569
00:33:33.849 --> 00:33:36.650
find judgment you won't find the Dalai Lama passing judgment

570
00:33:36.710 --> 00:33:39.930
over things he'll be very happily accepting everything and I'm

571
00:33:39.970 --> 00:33:42.690
sure the Buddha and I'm sure all the saints you

572
00:33:42.730 --> 00:33:44.150
won't find them judging a great.

573
00:33:43.990 --> 00:33:48.509
Deal either no and And as they're judging, and here's

574
00:33:48.549 --> 00:33:54.509
the interesting thing, if you go back into becoming, when

575
00:33:54.549 --> 00:33:58.019
you look at, if I'm judging you for some reason,

576
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:02.799
what am I really saying to myself? I'm saying that

577
00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:07.859
I am better than you, which means I have some

578
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:13.179
level of discomfort Of who I am. And therefore, I'm

579
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:16.760
going to mentally judge you so I can make myself

580
00:34:16.820 --> 00:34:19.920
feel better because I have a belief system that I'm

581
00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:24.610
really not better. And I think that becomes so interesting.

582
00:34:24.809 --> 00:34:29.590
And how on earth does someone overcome that?

583
00:34:32.889 --> 00:34:35.050
There's something that I really should mention at this point,

584
00:34:35.110 --> 00:34:38.030
that sometimes the judgment is about us and the self-judgment.

585
00:34:38.090 --> 00:34:40.550
So it could be that, not that I'm better than you,

586
00:34:41.010 --> 00:34:44.150
but you're better than me. Or I'm not good enough,

587
00:34:44.389 --> 00:34:47.969
or I don't belong, or I'm a bad person. So

588
00:34:48.050 --> 00:34:52.469
the self-judgment can actually be one of the most destructive judgments.

589
00:34:53.329 --> 00:34:57.679
So every form of judgment creates this separation. It breaks

590
00:34:57.739 --> 00:35:01.510
any unity, it divides. dichotomizes, and I'd love to, if

591
00:35:01.550 --> 00:35:03.369
you'll allow me to bring one of my favorite quotes,

592
00:35:03.829 --> 00:35:08.829
Abraham Maslow, he said, dichotomies pathologize and pathologies dichotomize. In

593
00:35:08.869 --> 00:35:12.429
other words, when we get sick, we split things, and

594
00:35:12.449 --> 00:35:15.449
the things that we split make us sick. And by

595
00:35:15.670 --> 00:35:20.440
creating separation, we're doing that. We're pathologizing things. We're creating

596
00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:22.519
a dichotomy when there was no need to be one.

597
00:35:23.500 --> 00:35:26.019
Well, that's true. And, you know, as you talk about

598
00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:31.280
those levels of consciousness, as we talk about experiencing new lives,

599
00:35:31.300 --> 00:35:35.710
being reborn time and time again. You make a comment

600
00:35:35.769 --> 00:35:37.849
that I think is so important for the audience to

601
00:35:37.889 --> 00:35:41.690
understand that these changes that can occur in our lives

602
00:35:41.849 --> 00:35:44.889
do not happen in a straight line. I think so

603
00:35:45.070 --> 00:35:48.940
often we try to say, all right, here's the path.

604
00:35:49.179 --> 00:35:54.860
In fact, I think of a particular religious aspect of

605
00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:58.820
holding on to an iron rod and following that path.

606
00:35:59.570 --> 00:36:02.110
And in my mind, I look at that and I'm going,

607
00:36:02.710 --> 00:36:07.130
there's no way because we, we have different cycles in

608
00:36:07.190 --> 00:36:10.989
our lives and it's not always straightforward because if it

609
00:36:11.030 --> 00:36:14.469
were straightforward, at least if we want to believe it's straightforward,

610
00:36:14.510 --> 00:36:17.949
that puts incredible pressure on us. And in fact, I

611
00:36:17.989 --> 00:36:21.869
think does damage. Yeah. Yeah.

612
00:36:21.909 --> 00:36:25.269
We're all unfinished all the time. Um, Every day we

613
00:36:25.309 --> 00:36:27.349
wake up, we're still unfinished. And we will do tomorrow

614
00:36:27.369 --> 00:36:29.960
when we wake up. We'll still be unfinished then too.

615
00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:35.000
But the human becoming is, I mean, as a metaphor,

616
00:36:35.420 --> 00:36:38.920
I put it a bit like sailing, that we're going

617
00:36:38.940 --> 00:36:44.130
to encounter storms and we don't grow through avoiding those storms.

618
00:36:44.309 --> 00:36:47.590
We grow by developing the seamanship to survive those storms,

619
00:36:47.909 --> 00:36:50.969
to work through them and to be a bit more

620
00:36:51.010 --> 00:36:54.949
conscious about the, conditions that we're facing. And then we

621
00:36:54.989 --> 00:36:57.190
can learn to integrate some of those, if we can,

622
00:36:58.150 --> 00:37:01.369
integrate some of that and incorporate some wisdom into how

623
00:37:01.409 --> 00:37:02.730
we approach the world from there.

624
00:37:03.289 --> 00:37:07.130
So when someone is experiencing a particular cycle in their life,

625
00:37:08.489 --> 00:37:11.500
what is the process for them to go through that cycle?

626
00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:16.889
How do they How do they sit back and look

627
00:37:17.010 --> 00:37:20.369
at the positive aspects and be grateful for that? How

628
00:37:20.429 --> 00:37:23.750
do they look at the negative aspects, perhaps, and seek

629
00:37:23.789 --> 00:37:26.909
to understand what lessons perhaps is teaching them? So as

630
00:37:26.949 --> 00:37:31.860
they begin a new cycle, it begins at perhaps a

631
00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:36.619
higher level of awareness, of understanding, of experience.

632
00:37:38.099 --> 00:37:41.039
Yeah, that's the key word there, isn't it, Dr. Doug?

633
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:44.190
It's the awareness. If we are aware that we're on

634
00:37:44.230 --> 00:37:47.449
the cycle, That in itself separates us from the cycle.

635
00:37:47.489 --> 00:37:51.110
So we take a step away from it and we go, OK,

636
00:37:51.349 --> 00:37:53.010
I can see where it starts. I can see where

637
00:37:53.050 --> 00:37:54.750
I am now and I can see where it's going.

638
00:37:55.670 --> 00:37:59.670
And much like avoiding the emotions that come up, if

639
00:37:59.710 --> 00:38:03.010
we see them, they're not going to control us quite

640
00:38:03.050 --> 00:38:05.590
as much. But yeah, what can we learn from a cycle?

641
00:38:06.269 --> 00:38:07.849
And are we prepared to let go of what it's

642
00:38:07.889 --> 00:38:09.670
telling us to let go? Or do we need to

643
00:38:09.710 --> 00:38:13.090
let go of something else? What's not serving us here?

644
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:15.699
It's a great inquiry.

645
00:38:16.860 --> 00:38:21.469
Well, you know, I interviewed a lady just yesterday, sweet

646
00:38:21.510 --> 00:38:26.949
lady from Jakarta. She's Islam. And as we talked about things,

647
00:38:27.469 --> 00:38:31.909
and she shared with me that there are many facets

648
00:38:32.510 --> 00:38:35.559
of Islam beliefs. And, of course, I look at that

649
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:42.199
from a standpoint of Christianity, many facets of Christianity, oftentimes

650
00:38:42.260 --> 00:38:47.289
believing opposite things, Same thing with Judaism, same thing with Buddhism,

651
00:38:47.349 --> 00:38:53.050
same thing with Hinduism. Everything has all these multiplicities of

652
00:38:53.110 --> 00:38:56.590
beliefs and ways in which they should interpret what the

653
00:38:56.699 --> 00:39:01.039
original teachings had to be. And what it made me

654
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:03.380
think about, and I've done a lot of study on this,

655
00:39:03.619 --> 00:39:06.659
is how often if we go back to original teachings,

656
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:12.989
that there's a basic level of goodness that is being taught.

657
00:39:13.940 --> 00:39:18.159
Love your neighbor. Love others. Be kind. Be generous. All

658
00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:22.210
of those things. And that is universal amongst all religions,

659
00:39:24.469 --> 00:39:27.739
particularly when you get into that aspect of those religions.

660
00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:29.559
There are some that aren't, but, you know, they are.

661
00:39:29.570 --> 00:39:32.969
and and I thought to myself here we are in

662
00:39:33.030 --> 00:39:36.500
a world now and and I think you're experiencing it

663
00:39:36.579 --> 00:39:40.599
over there in the UK we certainly experienced it in

664
00:39:40.619 --> 00:39:46.340
the US where there's such division there's such anger there's

665
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:52.219
such political division and even religious division and this and that,

666
00:39:53.019 --> 00:39:55.719
how on earth are we ever going to reach a

667
00:39:55.800 --> 00:40:01.760
point where we start to minimize that division and start

668
00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:04.989
to bring people together again where they can start to

669
00:40:05.750 --> 00:40:10.750
really be kind, to start developing the attitude and the

670
00:40:10.809 --> 00:40:15.550
ability to be kind, to love, to support, all of

671
00:40:15.610 --> 00:40:17.719
those type of things. What are your thoughts on that?

672
00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:26.619
It's a really, really important question of our times. Certainly,

673
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:29.300
Albert Einstein said you can't solve a problem with the

674
00:40:29.320 --> 00:40:33.000
level of consciousness that created it. I think that humanity,

675
00:40:33.460 --> 00:40:37.739
much like the individual orbits of consciousness, I think humanity, societies,

676
00:40:37.820 --> 00:40:40.679
countries can be in certain orbits as well, and I

677
00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:42.119
can think of some that are in a pretty bad

678
00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:47.840
place right now. But are humans at the level of evolution,

679
00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:48.739
at the optimal?

680
00:40:48.920 --> 00:40:49.099
No.

681
00:40:49.699 --> 00:40:52.480
I believe we are on the verge of something more.

682
00:40:52.539 --> 00:40:57.320
I think that we can become, both individually and as

683
00:40:57.500 --> 00:41:01.909
a species, we can move into a higher level of

684
00:41:01.949 --> 00:41:07.010
consciousness where we can start to attend to the living

685
00:41:07.050 --> 00:41:09.070
world a little bit better. We can be kinder to

686
00:41:09.110 --> 00:41:11.489
each other. We can stop dropping bombs on each other.

687
00:41:11.530 --> 00:41:15.400
We can certainly do better than that. And reach a

688
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:20.619
degree of consciousness equality and compassion uh over the whole

689
00:41:20.659 --> 00:41:23.260
globe and i think that's the world that we're supposed

690
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:24.900
to be living in and you're right we're a long

691
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:27.780
way from that now we are um how do we

692
00:41:27.860 --> 00:41:30.480
make a difference just through ourselves by our own actions

693
00:41:30.539 --> 00:41:32.800
and by the the actions on the people around us

694
00:41:32.840 --> 00:41:35.320
that's the only power we have um which i think

695
00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:36.440
is great power by.

696
00:41:36.380 --> 00:41:39.460
The way and what are your thoughts about the goodness

697
00:41:39.579 --> 00:41:41.400
of humanity.

698
00:41:42.579 --> 00:41:46.860
Yeah it is it's a good it is fundamentally good

699
00:41:47.380 --> 00:41:49.719
I think that it gets distracted. I think that people

700
00:41:50.059 --> 00:41:53.500
can lose their way. I think that, um, things can

701
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:56.239
happen to people and, you know, you can get bad leaders.

702
00:41:56.599 --> 00:41:59.500
I think people who can be easily manipulated if they

703
00:41:59.559 --> 00:42:03.500
are not entirely, you know, haven't done this work on themselves, um,

704
00:42:03.719 --> 00:42:07.099
know thyself, you know, that, that would, that is where

705
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:10.159
it begins and ends. Um, because if we know ourselves,

706
00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:14.980
then we can't be manipulated by others. Um, I do

707
00:42:15.019 --> 00:42:18.119
believe in humanity. I do believe that we are destined

708
00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:22.039
for a beautiful planet with a beautiful, beautiful species of

709
00:42:22.099 --> 00:42:27.469
humans living on it together in happiness, harmony, kindness, compassion. Yeah,

710
00:42:27.889 --> 00:42:30.550
we're still going to suffer. We will, of course we will.

711
00:42:30.750 --> 00:42:33.210
But then we will be learning how to suffer together

712
00:42:33.429 --> 00:42:33.869
within that.

713
00:42:34.550 --> 00:42:38.110
Well, and, you know, it used to strike me, I

714
00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:40.920
found myself, oh, how am I going to reach thousands

715
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:42.559
of people? How am I going to reach all of

716
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:46.760
these people? And What finally hit me was this concept

717
00:42:46.940 --> 00:42:50.719
of the one. You know, all you have to do

718
00:42:50.800 --> 00:42:54.590
is make the difference in one person's life. One person

719
00:42:54.630 --> 00:42:57.150
be kind to. One person put your arm around them

720
00:42:57.210 --> 00:43:01.590
when they're sad. Because as you do that, it starts

721
00:43:01.650 --> 00:43:04.360
to build. And then they might do the same for

722
00:43:04.420 --> 00:43:07.800
someone else. And over time, it doesn't happen overnight, but

723
00:43:07.900 --> 00:43:11.460
over time, we might see the change that you're talking about.

724
00:43:13.309 --> 00:43:15.869
Yeah, and it should not be our intention to change

725
00:43:15.909 --> 00:43:19.989
the world. We can change ourselves, and the world will

726
00:43:20.010 --> 00:43:22.840
change around us. Even if our little bit is only

727
00:43:22.860 --> 00:43:25.480
a fragment of that, we've helped the world, right? We've

728
00:43:25.500 --> 00:43:30.739
helped it be a better place. And possibly it's never

729
00:43:30.780 --> 00:43:34.010
going to be. The world will never possibly get to

730
00:43:34.070 --> 00:43:37.230
that place which I imagined. But the closer we get

731
00:43:37.250 --> 00:43:38.949
to it, the better it's going to be for everybody.

732
00:43:39.349 --> 00:43:41.329
So how do people find you online?

733
00:43:43.769 --> 00:43:47.469
Um, they can find me through a phenomenal life.co.uk. Um,

734
00:43:47.630 --> 00:43:49.389
and there's some of my writings on there, some of

735
00:43:49.429 --> 00:43:52.429
my thoughts, um, some other information. There's a, even a

736
00:43:52.449 --> 00:43:56.570
map of the orbits of consciousness on there. Um, and yeah, uh,

737
00:43:56.590 --> 00:43:59.039
links to, to getting out of the book of phenomenal life.

738
00:43:59.940 --> 00:44:03.380
Right. And what would be kind of a final message

739
00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:05.760
that you'd want to share with the audience that can

740
00:44:05.820 --> 00:44:08.079
cause them to start to think and maybe make a

741
00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:10.900
difference for them? Yeah.

742
00:44:10.980 --> 00:44:15.840
Thank you. Um, we've been exploring or touching on this

743
00:44:15.929 --> 00:44:18.400
idea of the unity. And I think that's something where

744
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:22.739
actually it's very, very important. I think that we live

745
00:44:22.780 --> 00:44:26.340
in patterns that we can only partially perceive. And I

746
00:44:26.380 --> 00:44:29.139
think that the earth is alive with the relationship around us.

747
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:33.469
And such things as mind and matter, they're not as

748
00:44:33.510 --> 00:44:38.309
separate as we possibly think that they are. Ancient traditions,

749
00:44:39.010 --> 00:44:41.710
what we've spoken about, they've hung on to fragments of that.

750
00:44:41.750 --> 00:44:44.920
But it seems like... modern world certainly science which i've

751
00:44:45.219 --> 00:44:47.539
spent a lot of my time in um are starting

752
00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:52.780
to get distracted by fundamentalism by um you know physicalism

753
00:44:52.980 --> 00:44:56.960
or breaking things down and you know an analysis but

754
00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:59.780
analysis and understanding so i think we need to attend

755
00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:02.139
to the living world i think we need to recover

756
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:04.760
some wonder and some reverence for the world that we

757
00:45:04.820 --> 00:45:09.000
live in and i think yeah um participate in our

758
00:45:09.019 --> 00:45:13.599
experience consciously and yeah love people and have fun Wonderful.

759
00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:17.670
Richard, thanks so much. This has been a great conversation.

760
00:45:17.690 --> 00:45:21.210
I really appreciate your thoughts and what you're contributing.

761
00:45:22.929 --> 00:45:24.989
Thank you so much, Dr. Doug. I really enjoyed it too.

762
00:45:25.130 --> 00:45:29.210
Well, folks, thanks for listening. Hope you've enjoyed it. Hopefully

763
00:45:29.269 --> 00:45:31.659
you'll join us again soon. So this is Dr. Doug

764
00:45:31.909 --> 00:45:39.039
saying namaste. Every conversation on this podcast eventually comes back

765
00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:42.340
to that same question, not how do I get more?

766
00:45:43.250 --> 00:45:46.849
but is this actually who I am? If something you

767
00:45:46.889 --> 00:45:49.750
heard today moved you just a little closer to an

768
00:45:49.789 --> 00:45:55.469
honest answer, that is enough. I'm Dr. Doug. This is

769
00:45:55.530 --> 00:45:57.869
Inspire Vision. Until next time.