March 24, 2026

Every Day Is a New Beginning: Healing, Grace, and Men’s Mental Health

Every Day Is a New Beginning: Healing, Grace, and Men’s Mental Health
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Dr. Doug talks with coach and former counselor Mark Wigginton about addiction, relapse, perfectionism, and giving ourselves grace. Mark shares his journey through rehab, midlife transition, grief, and reconciling with his father—and why every day is a chance to start again, no matter your age.

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WEBVTT

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,

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legal counseling, professional service, or any advice.

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You should seek the services.

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Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.

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At the end of the day, it's not about what

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you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what

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you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,

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who you've made better. It's about what you've given back.

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Denzel Washington, welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is

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to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you

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to do the same.

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Mark welcome to the show.

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Thank you for having me. Dr Doug. I sure appreciate

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it well, and I'm excited.

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You know, you reached out to me, and as we

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had a chance to, you know, text back and forth,

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I found an email back and forth.

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I found that yours, your approach.

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And what you're doing is just really effective and can

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really make a difference in people's lives. What I'd love

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for you to do is we get started, is kind

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of share with the audience who you are and what

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brought you to the point of doing what you're doing

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here and working with people awesome.

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I love to do that.

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So so we said, my name is Mark Wigginton, I'm

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based in Austin, Texas, and so we're we're having an

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interesting time zone challenge together this morning, this morning, this evening.

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I you know, I'm I've had.

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Multiple phases in my life, and all those phases have

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kind of built on each other, and I think kind

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of the theme that has run through all those phases

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has been about self discovery. So whether that was you know,

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when I was, you know, a young person, I lived

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in a kind of a lot of chaos and I

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built that and brought that forward into my career.

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In my mid thirties, I went to rehab and then I.

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Went I changed my career and became a licensed professional

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counselor and got a master's degree and I worked in

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community and mental health. I did that for about seven years,

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and then I moved back into business. In that period

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of time of transition that was like a fifteen year window,

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and I had about twenty different jobs in that fifteen

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year window of the time I worked in community mental

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health and then came back into business. And then that

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led to kind of the last phase of my career

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where back to back I kind of had some self discovery,

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some real deep transformation, and I wound up in one

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job doing the same thing that used all my skills

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for the next fifteen years. So back to back, twenty

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jobs in fifteen years than one job in fifteen year.

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Left full time work a couple of years ago so

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I could be a greater support to my parents. And

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then in twenty twenty three, I went through a period

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where my mother died, followed by my stepmother, followed by

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my father in ninety nine days in really quick succession.

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Wow, that led me to.

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Where I am today, this place of really kind of

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deep into introspection and kind to figure out, you know,

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what everything was about in the past so that I

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can use it as I move forward into my next chapter.

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Well, and you know, it's interesting because you know, we

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talk about new phases in our lives, new chapters in

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our life.

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I like to talk about new beginnings.

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And you've been through it through chatter, You've been through

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a few chapters, and I'd be curious and if if,

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if you don't want to be too transparent.

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I appreciate that.

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But so you talk about you had your one job

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in business and then you went into rehab. Yeah, what

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what was causing you to get into that situation where

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I would assume you were a very successful businessman at

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the time.

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What happened? Yeah?

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Outwardly I was really successful, you know, I had kind

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of started my career. I was in a sales role

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and was very successful at that on the outside, but

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inside I was still pretty empty. I was still pretty hollow,

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you know, not to turn it into a drunklog, but

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I had you know, again, I grew up in a

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really chaotic environment.

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You know, my parents married really young.

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My mother had me at eighteen, she was single, she

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was married at eighteen, she had me at nineteen, and

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she was single by the time she was twenty. So

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there was lots of movement, lots of juggling. So I

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kind of grew up in this real kreatic environment. And

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as a teen, like a lot of people, I experimented

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with alcohol and I found that was something that helped

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calm me. That was something that helped me manage the

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chaos internally, and that just carried through and it was

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a great coping tool until it wasn't. And when I

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was about thirty, that was the place where I said,

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you know what, this isn't working anymore.

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It's just it's not me.

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You know.

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When I went to rehab, I had no intention of

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changing my career.

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You know, I had no intention.

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And I came back out and I was like, you know,

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this isn't what I really want to do, how I

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really want to spend my life.

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So I went back to school and got my degree

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and made the shift.

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Okay, So it's really interesting how deeply our childhood can

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affect us. And you know, as you say, for you,

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it was alcohol to try to just kind of wipe

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away all of those situations and you were doing something

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that you were being successful at, but as you said,

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you were not happy and when you went to rehab

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and as you went through that whole process, and I

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would assume that that was part of the inspiration for

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you going to psychology for a while. What were some

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of your innate self discoveries that you feel would be

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applicable to people who maybe at the point right now

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where they're working hard, but they find that they're relying

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on alcohol or drugs or whatever to compensate for something

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that occurred to them years previously that they've just not

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been able to deal with.

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Yeah, guys, that's such an important question. And you know,

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we can talk about this a couple of different ways.

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And I do a lot of work right now with

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with men and dealing with men's mental health issues. So

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I'm going to talk about it from the perspective of

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men's mental health, even though it's probably probably applicable.

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In both sides.

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The bottom line is that, you know, at least so

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I'm in the US and in this culture. You know,

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people of my generation, the Boomers, we grew up a

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certain way with a certain image of what masculinity was.

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Right, it was you know, it was.

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John Wayne, and you know Ethan Edwards and the Searchers,

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right or you know his character in the Shoots where

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you're strong and and you don't need anybody, and you

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know you don't have to, you don't rely on anybody,

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and you don't talk about what's going on today for

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today's generation. For our generation, it was John Wayne. For

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today's generation, it's John Wick. The same kind of behavior, right,

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But I think that's really true for a lot of us.

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You know, we outwardly perform maybe without really taking care

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of ourselves, and that leads to this kind of double

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life where you know, we are all appearances, we are

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out there and really you know, making it happen in

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the world, but inside we still have you know, we

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still have feelings that are unresolved from childhood. You know,

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I've I work with a lot of people who follow

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kind of under the category of highly sensitive persons. And

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I don't know if you've talked about HSPs on your podcast,

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but it's this this trait of characters that are really

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about how you process deeply, and a lot of that

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stuff comes from childhood, so you know, it's how deeply

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you process. How do you respond to overstimulation, you know,

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and for me, responding to over stimulation was the alcohol

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to tone everything down, right. How do you deal with

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reacting emotionally, How do you deal with empathy and how

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do you manage empathy? Those are some of the key skills.

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And how are you sensitive to kind of the subtleties. Well,

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those things all are powerful in helping people in business

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be aware, be present, know what's happening in the room,

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know what other people are feeling. But at the same time,

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if you're not manage it inside, it can.

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Become a real issue.

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And I think that's what happened to me in my journey,

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is that, you know, I had to manage my overstimulation.

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To that chaos that I grew up in, and then

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that just carried forward into work.

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And you know I talked about having twenty jobs in

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fifteen years. That was me continuing to recreate the chaos

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until I found a better way to cope, right until

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that second phase when I found a more effective coping skill.

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You know, that allowed me to be grounded and use

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all the lessons of my past.

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Well, and it's interesting you talk about those childhood or

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even teenager whenever it happens, but those imprints that just

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continually come up, the reactivity, the emotions that come up

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that are in most cases initially totally.

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Out of our control.

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Right.

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You know, I love this concept of free agency, of agency,

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and yet I should sometimes think, you know what, for

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many people that doesn't exist because they are so controlled

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by those childhood experiences that have printed in their subconscious.

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Minds that anytime anything happens, their.

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Response emotionally to whatever event comes up goes right back

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to that subconscious imprint or plural.

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The five year old drives the bus, right, you know,

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the adult is out there in front, but it's like

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the Wizard of Oz, who's the man behind the curtain?

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Right, the five year old? You know, the unresolved stuff that's.

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Happened, it impacts how we interact with the world as adults.

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Well, Andrew, when you went into rehab, I mean, you know,

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you talked about rehab and I think, okay, I get that,

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but not having ever been there, do they really delve

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into those childhood things? Do they really delve into how

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to overcome that chaos? Is controlling your lives as part

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of that or is that a separate thing that one

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works with in addition to working with overcoming whatever addiction

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there happens to.

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Be see all of the above.

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So and and I went I had an opportunity, kind

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of a unique opportunity when I went to rehab. I

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went to a rehab in Canada that was had a

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little bit of a different focus, right, so it focused

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more on the behaviors that drove what they talked about

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as the X factor, right, So they talked about the

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behaviors that drove.

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Why you made the decisions you did to use whatever

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it was you were using, and they I was dealing with.

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You know, in my group, it was just people with alcohol,

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with alcohol, drug, sex, you know, work everything. There were

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there were spouses of people who had been before, you know,

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who were trying to learn how to understand the dynamics

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of the relationship being a relationship with a person who

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had a dependence. So, you know, there was a lot

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of deep introspective work and a lot of humbling work.

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And group work.

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It's like if you've been to therapy and you go

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and you have a session with somebody and it's forty

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five minutes or fifty minutes and you kind of chat

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and you work your way through it, and then the

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last five minutes you drop your little door. You know,

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as you're about to leave, you drop the little bomb

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five minutes before you go. You don't get away with that.

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When you're locked away for twenty eight days, you know

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you're doing you know, sixteen hours of group work a day,

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you know, or working in your journal or whatever your

231
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tools are. So it really is a chance for introspection

232
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and it really it really jumps arguing me.

233
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Now, you know, we can continue on to my story

234
00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:57.120
and we can.

235
00:11:57.039 --> 00:12:01.559
Talk about how you know, the the process of recovery

236
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is not a straight line. And you know I worked

237
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after I finished that. I worked with people who were

238
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you know, in mental health settings, who were in substance

239
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abuse treatment settings. And there came a period of time

240
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when when I relapsed and wasn't able to reach out

241
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and went back into the business world. I chose to

242
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just say, listen, you know, I can't I'm not being

243
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honest with myself or with my clients. I need to

244
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turn and leave because I couldn't ask for help at

245
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that point, and I went back into the business world.

246
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Then well, and then what finally got you back? If

247
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you are there now, what got you back? Because you know,

248
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you talk about something I think that's so important that

249
00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:46.320
we think that we can change overnight, and you know,

250
00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:49.360
we go to therapy, we go to rehab, whatever that

251
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happens to be. I know that I worked when I

252
00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:55.720
was working with as a consultant for some businesses, I

253
00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:59.440
worked with the rehab center, and as we talked about,

254
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I was very close to the owners and as we

255
00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:05.519
talked about it, it was an interesting story that they

256
00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:08.480
would help someone, they would leave, and then they would

257
00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:13.159
come back, and so there's just that repeat that continues

258
00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.759
to go on. And I think to some degree this

259
00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:20.000
gets into this whole concept of mindset, that at what

260
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point in time are you aware enough and in control enough,

261
00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:28.440
and that your mind is conscious enough to recognize that

262
00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.919
when that trigger comes up to get you to go

263
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:35.320
have a drink or whatever, that you're able to recognize

264
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that and just kind of push it away.

265
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But as you say, you know, these are habits.

266
00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:43.840
That who we develop all over our lives, and breaking

267
00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:48.679
a habit is really tough. So how did you ultimately

268
00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:52.200
so you went from working with people as a psychologists

269
00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:55.080
back to regular work, and as you say, even then

270
00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:59.080
you went back and fell back on the off the wagon.

271
00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:04.360
How did you if you have, how have you ultimately

272
00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:07.720
gotten to the point recognizing that I'm sure it always

273
00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:10.679
comes up for you, but how have you gotten to

274
00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:14.440
the point where you've been really able to truly overcome

275
00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:19.440
that and recognize that, Yeah, you know, always an alcoholic,

276
00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:21.960
but no longer for taking.

277
00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:27.240
Yeah, So a long question, I'm sorry, A long answer,

278
00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:30.720
A long answer. It's going to be a long answer

279
00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:34.679
to that question because it encompasses so many different things. So,

280
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.960
you know, first off, going back to to the phase

281
00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:42.320
of you know, working with people who struggled. You know,

282
00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:45.480
I I one of the jobs that I had during

283
00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:48.080
that phase is I worked in the county jail and

284
00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:51.559
a rehab center that was in the jail. So these

285
00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:54.320
are people who have you know, had risks and you know,

286
00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:57.679
a substance abuse issue was a core to why they

287
00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:01.240
committed their crime, and so part of their their journey

288
00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:04.679
through the criminal justice system included them having the opportunity

289
00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:07.120
to do this. So, you know, I was deeply involved

290
00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:09.600
in people who are struggling, and I would be there

291
00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:12.600
to help them understand the process of relapse right. And

292
00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:15.960
the key was that when I relapsed, I wasn't able

293
00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:17.399
to offer myself that same grace.

294
00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:18.799
And that's something that happens a lot.

295
00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:23.360
You know, people perform care right for other people without

296
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:26.000
really feeling worthy of observing that themselves.

297
00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:28.480
That's something that happens a lot in the mental health community.

298
00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:30.960
So I went back out and then I created this

299
00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:34.080
crazy world where you know, I lived on the road.

300
00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:36.840
You know, I was a consultant on the road, A trainer,

301
00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:41.240
sales consultant, management consultant. You know, you just talk about consulting,

302
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:43.440
you know that gig right. And I was there all

303
00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:45.919
the time, and I created.

304
00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:47.279
An environment where I didn't have.

305
00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:49.440
Boundaries, and so I had the freedom to go out

306
00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:51.000
and to drink and do whatever it was that I

307
00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:54.000
wanted to. But still I had those the lessons in

308
00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:56.240
the back of my mind which set up this really

309
00:15:56.279 --> 00:16:00.120
powerful conflict. Right this really I lived this double life.

310
00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:00.639
Is on the road.

311
00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:02.440
I was this kind of wild and crazy life of

312
00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:05.279
the party lamp shed, lampshad on the head guy, and

313
00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:07.240
then I come home and I try to be balanced.

314
00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:09.840
And I lived that way for a really, really long

315
00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:11.840
time until I had a hard consequence.

316
00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:14.399
I mean, I found myself being the guy on the side.

317
00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:17.159
Of the road, you know, doing the hoky poke like

318
00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:19.039
the people that I had dealt with, you know, eight

319
00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:19.679
years earlier.

320
00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:23.360
There was an eight year journey of that transition for me.

321
00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:27.159
And you know, even after that, and I found new

322
00:16:27.159 --> 00:16:30.200
ways to manage my anxiety, new ways to manage the

323
00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:30.919
over stimulation.

324
00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:32.919
I still struggled with alcohol, and.

325
00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:35.200
Every time I would drink, I would have that challenge.

326
00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:37.879
So I'm going to fast forward now through that story

327
00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:41.720
to the death of my parents, and you know that's

328
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:43.080
that was in two.

329
00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:45.240
That was in twenty twenty.

330
00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:47.919
Three, and that led me to this really deep introspection.

331
00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:50.399
I went back into therapy for the first time in

332
00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:53.360
a really long time, and one of the first things

333
00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:56.600
I learned as I as I worked with this therapist

334
00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.240
was about something that had evolved over time. It was

335
00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:03.879
a model called harm reduction. And so the harm reduction

336
00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:11.480
model allows allows provides for a person who is struggling

337
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:16.359
with abstinence to determine what their own goals are, to say,

338
00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:19.599
you know what my life is working in these five

339
00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:24.160
areas I can I can manage whatever my drug of

340
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:25.319
choice is, whatever.

341
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:28.599
I'm differing from And just because I'm.

342
00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:31.680
Not able to stay one hundred percent abstinent doesn't mean

343
00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:34.759
that I failed. It's not all black and white. It

344
00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:37.000
moves away from black and white, which if you really

345
00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:39.279
look at the original message of the twelve step programs

346
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:40.640
of you know, if you go all the way back

347
00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:42.720
to the very beginning, who was do your best today

348
00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:45.319
and if you screw up, start again tomorrow. Right, That

349
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.240
was the original message of the twelve step programs. Well,

350
00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:51.359
that's what what harm reduction does. And dog that gave

351
00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:53.640
me a new freedom, right, it gave me the freedom

352
00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:58.279
to make a decision without being bad if I'm not perfect,

353
00:17:58.039 --> 00:17:59.000
and that's what it.

354
00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:00.200
Yeah, that's it.

355
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:02.720
An interesting you know, you mentioned the word grace, and

356
00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:07.720
I don't know where your theological ways are, but you know,

357
00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:10.920
regardless of that, when we think of grace and giving

358
00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:15.160
ourselves grace or receiving grace, what's interesting is that we

359
00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:20.319
don't understand so often that, as you said, you know,

360
00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:23.839
you change your mindset about the fact that, hey, if

361
00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:26.839
you decided to have a drink, rather than that feeling

362
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:31.359
that guilt of okay, I've relapsed, that you look at

363
00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:35.119
it from okay I did that really shouldn't have, but

364
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:40.039
I did, and then giving yourself the grace to forgive yourself.

365
00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:41.720
And to move forward the next day.

366
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:44.119
Yeah, And so let's tile us all the way back

367
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:47.440
to the earlier question about perfectionism, right, and to the

368
00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:51.400
earlier question about you know, the you know, how were

369
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.319
you performing so well in work and struggling inside? It's

370
00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:56.720
because I couldn't give myself that grace and it took

371
00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:59.240
me until I was sixty three years old to give

372
00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:01.960
myself that great race, and it's led to a whole

373
00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:04.799
new thing because you know, I can choose or not choose,

374
00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:08.319
and so I choose to not. I choose to be abstinate.

375
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:11.720
You know, today I'm abstinate, right, and if i'm tomorrow,

376
00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:12.839
if something.

377
00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:14.799
Happens, okay, then I start again. Rights.

378
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:18.319
It's about being more present with myself and giving myself

379
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.599
that freedom. And I think that's so important for men,

380
00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:23.519
you know, I think in general, back to this, we've

381
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:25.960
got to be strong, we have to be perfect, you know.

382
00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:28.440
Guess what, give yourself a little bit of grace and

383
00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:30.680
give yourself the ability to be a human and to

384
00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:32.920
make mistakes and recover.

385
00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:33.359
From your stakes.

386
00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:35.960
Every single day you have the opportunity to choose again

387
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:38.240
in every element of your life.

388
00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:38.799
Well.

389
00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:41.759
And I think what that does, too, which I find fascinating,

390
00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.240
is we give ourselves some grace and recognize that, you

391
00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:47.680
know what, I can have a new beginning, and I

392
00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:50.119
can have as many new beginnings as I need.

393
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:50.920
Right.

394
00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:54.759
Do you find from your background in psychology, do you

395
00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:58.960
find that as someone moves away from that guilt and

396
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:04.240
that perfection them to recognizing that, hey, give myself a

397
00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:06.960
little grace and start a new beginning again. Do you

398
00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:13.119
find that mentality helps them to be strengthened in overcoming

399
00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:14.119
some of those issues.

400
00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:15.240
Absolutely.

401
00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.440
I mean giving yourself the freedom getting off your back,

402
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:22.480
giving yourself the freedom to move forward, and to accept

403
00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:25.920
that none of us are perfect, right they except that

404
00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:29.279
it's okay that you're not perfect, I think is a

405
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.880
really important key for anybody, you know, to be able

406
00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:35.039
to move forward. I mean, I deal with my work

407
00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:37.720
right now. You know here in the States, there's so

408
00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:40.680
much going on with the government and all the people

409
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:43.000
who are being let go and laid off, and because

410
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:45.319
of something of something that happened in that later phase

411
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:47.680
of my career, I wind up working with a lot

412
00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:49.960
of people who were caught up in that, and even

413
00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:53.720
they need to give grace on themselves that something that's

414
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:56.640
not their fault. You know, they were laid off, they

415
00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:58.920
were fired, they got the doge notice or they got

416
00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:01.079
the fork notice or what ever, the you know, the

417
00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:02.920
things that are involved in that for the people in

418
00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:06.119
the government sector, and they feel terrible guilt, you know,

419
00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:09.000
or they may have been top performers all along and

420
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:11.279
got promoted and promoted, and then they got a letter

421
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.599
that said you're being let go because your performance a substandard,

422
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.200
which wasn't true. So even then, you know, half the

423
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:21.799
time it's helping people get through that and I realize

424
00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:23.960
that it's not about them and uncover what the strengths

425
00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:26.000
are that they have that they've learned from that that

426
00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:27.839
they can take forward into the next phase.

427
00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:31.480
Well, and you talk about the word perfection, and I

428
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:35.119
have looked at that word for so many years, and

429
00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:37.960
you know, I look at it from the standpoint of

430
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:42.160
imprints that have occurred early in childhood, particularly for people

431
00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:45.119
who are religious, and you know, be.

432
00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:46.279
There for perfect.

433
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:49.960
And yet as I've really studied it, I've recognized that

434
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:54.079
number one, that's not what it meant. We have an

435
00:21:54.119 --> 00:21:58.240
incorrect definition of what is used as the word perfect

436
00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.240
when in fact you go to the digital meaning used

437
00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:05.720
in the Hebrew was be complete, just be complete, And

438
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:10.519
that changes the whole sense of guilt to one of oh, okay,

439
00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:13.279
I just need to work on certain things. But what

440
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:16.759
I find fascinating here in Thailand, I've asked some people,

441
00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:19.759
so tell me a little bit about the word perfection,

442
00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:22.079
and they say, we don't even have that word in

443
00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:25.240
our language. We don't even have it, and so it's

444
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:28.799
interesting where you have the English speaking people that have that,

445
00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:31.279
and I'm sure in other countries where they still have

446
00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:35.480
that concept of perfection and how that can so deeply

447
00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:40.640
affect a person's mentality and their whole emotional stability.

448
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:42.880
You know, you talked in that interview that you did

449
00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:46.359
a few months ago with Marcos about your experience with

450
00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:50.440
that you're learning about Buddhism while you're there. Is that

451
00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:55.160
tied to this sense of self acceptance and complete lists

452
00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:58.200
completeness and lack of perfection. Is that what you're finding

453
00:22:58.240 --> 00:22:58.759
in Thailand?

454
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:01.000
I think so.

455
00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:05.079
And I look at it from the perspective of doing,

456
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:09.160
and again I focus on this to some degree that

457
00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:12.160
you know, there's always this constant comment that you need

458
00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:13.799
to do, you need to do, you need to do

459
00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:17.720
so that you can become. And I've always looked at

460
00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:21.480
it from a little different perspective, and it's like, you know, what,

461
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:26.319
as you become, you will naturally do, and so it's

462
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.839
just it's that reverse of recognizing that, Hey, quit worrying

463
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:33.079
about what you're doing or what you can't do and

464
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:37.559
so forth, just work on as you have that transformation

465
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:43.079
of becoming, and as you do that, then naturally you

466
00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:46.240
will do And so I think that yes, in here

467
00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:49.880
in Thailand with Buddhism, of course, his whole focus was

468
00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:53.759
that inner piece, that inner sense of you know, getting

469
00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:58.759
away from the struggling and so forth. And I find

470
00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:03.000
that that's true in in many religions, in many faiths,

471
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:05.759
that that really is the case if you look at

472
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:08.160
it and if you get honest with what's going on.

473
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:11.799
So yeah, I think from that perspective, Now do they

474
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:15.200
do they have issues here? Absolutely, because as they see

475
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:19.640
sometimes what they're doing, there's that whole issue that I

476
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:22.640
don't even want to talk about because in some ways

477
00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:26.200
they're so kind, they're so friendly, even though you know

478
00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:29.599
their lives can be very difficult. But then again, many

479
00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:33.319
of them spend the day drinking, and so you have

480
00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:38.079
that concept of kindness and love, which I think is

481
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.480
universal here. But at the same time, they're still dealing

482
00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:44.319
with those issues of boredom or whatever it happens to

483
00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:47.920
be struggling that cause them to go into that direction.

484
00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:50.680
And I'm not talking about everyone, but just where I

485
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:53.559
happen to live is very rural and so I observe

486
00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:57.079
that a lot among the HI workers.

487
00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:01.960
It's still about humanity, yes, you know, I mean the

488
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.599
human condition is striving to be striving to be perfect

489
00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:08.720
and not being successful, and so you know, we all

490
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:10.920
have to find our way to cope and deal with it,

491
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:13.319
I think, regardless of our culture, regardless of our gender.

492
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:17.240
Well, and that's true in allowing the ego.

493
00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:21.160
In fact, we talked about that this morning in another podcast,

494
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:25.519
the fact that we can have a very positive ego

495
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:29.880
or we can have an ego that's affecting us negatively.

496
00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:33.240
And I know that you know that's talked about in

497
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:34.279
a number of books.

498
00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:37.920
But you know, as you look at that, do you

499
00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:41.000
find that part of the challenge that many of the

500
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.240
men are experiencing where they're working hard, they're being successful,

501
00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:47.960
but they're not really finding that sense of peace within

502
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.480
themselves that part of the issue is that ego of

503
00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:54.799
I need to do this in order to be that,

504
00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:58.079
and I need to have this in order to be that.

505
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:00.000
Do you find that that's the case?

506
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.640
So how do you help them to not eliminate an

507
00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:06.920
ego because that's what I don't believe, but recognize it, right,

508
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:11.119
a positive ego has us move forward into very positive direction,

509
00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.039
and negative ego is the one that keeps controlling us

510
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:15.759
and tells us if we do this or if we

511
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:17.720
have this, we will be accepted.

512
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:21.559
Yeah, So that takes us back to rehab, and it

513
00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:23.920
takes back to one of the lessons that I learned

514
00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:28.839
that stuck with me and I've used consistently through my

515
00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:31.599
own life and I share with other people. And what

516
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:34.640
I learned there was kind of three parts of the ego.

517
00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:37.279
So I learned that there's a bully that we use

518
00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:40.799
to present ourselves and again maybe that's the person that's

519
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:44.480
out there and outperforming. And then there's a scared child

520
00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:47.480
that's behind them, right, that's the five year old that's

521
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:48.640
kind of pulling the strings.

522
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:49.880
And then there's a third.

523
00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:52.480
Part that's the identity, and that's the peacemaker between the

524
00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:56.240
bully and the scared child. And the deal is finding

525
00:26:56.279 --> 00:26:58.400
a way to integrate the bully and the scared child

526
00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.519
to allow your identity to shine through who allow you

527
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:05.759
to become who you really are and who you're meant

528
00:27:05.799 --> 00:27:08.160
to be. You know, kind of as this I mean,

529
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:09.960
if you want to say, as a spiritual person having

530
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:13.920
a human experience, and again that takes us back to acceptance.

531
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.839
Well, and that's so true. And you know you talk

532
00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:22.160
about rehab, you talk about therapy, and you are a psychologist.

533
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:24.920
I mean, you have that background and training. And what

534
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:29.079
I found is I've interviewed a number of psychologists that

535
00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:33.319
one of the things that comes up is the approach. Now,

536
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:36.359
you talked about the fact that when you went to Canada,

537
00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:40.000
their approach was not just you know, the twelve step program,

538
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:43.440
but it was also getting into the real causation of

539
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:46.359
what was going on and what was motivating that I

540
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:50.480
would assume in general they probably have a greater success

541
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:53.920
rate from that approach. And I know that as people

542
00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:56.799
are going to therapists, one of the things that we've

543
00:27:56.839 --> 00:27:59.240
talked about is they need to be aware if they

544
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:01.559
find that all of there is this talk talk talk

545
00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:05.240
talk talk, that they need to find a different therapist

546
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:08.519
because there are those good therapists out there, such as yourself,

547
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:11.119
because I know you approached it that way where they

548
00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:14.160
get into let's look at the real causation, what's going

549
00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:18.559
on here, and let's figure out those childhood imprints, those

550
00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:22.559
emotional imprints that are causing this behavior, and how you

551
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:28.160
can literally understand and move those to the side so

552
00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:31.319
that now you can truly become who you want to become.

553
00:28:31.880 --> 00:28:32.920
Yeah, so.

554
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:36.640
Most of the work that I do right now is

555
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:41.440
as a coach and integrating this the counseling background that

556
00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:45.240
I have, but being forward focused. And so it's exactly

557
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:47.759
what you talked about. One of the key differences I

558
00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:51.960
think in my experience have been having been a therapist,

559
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:55.799
a counselor and then moving forward to be a coach

560
00:28:56.039 --> 00:28:58.200
is that, you know, a counselor helps you kind of

561
00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:01.559
process the stuff in the back, and a coach helps

562
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:04.079
you helps you focus on moving forward. It's much more

563
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:08.000
action oriented, like you just said, So, you know, finding

564
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:10.400
somebody I think that has the kind of that unique

565
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:18.640
experience of having, you know, a strong foundation in counseling, psychology,

566
00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:22.920
a key business you know, thirty years at almost twenty

567
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:26.200
five years in business, following that and then moving combining

568
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:28.759
those things together to the being an executive coach.

569
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:30.240
Those are the things.

570
00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:32.759
That enabled me to work with clients and help them

571
00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:35.839
move into action, you know, And I sneak things in, right,

572
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:38.240
you know, I sneak things in like I'm not going

573
00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:40.279
to say, tell me about when you were five. But

574
00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:43.240
one of the first exercises that anybody ever does when

575
00:29:43.240 --> 00:29:45.799
they work with me is, Okay, sit down and look

576
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:48.640
at every job you've ever had. That goes all the

577
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:50.599
way to when you threw newspapers when you were twelve

578
00:29:50.680 --> 00:29:53.359
years old, right and look and tell me in every

579
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:56.920
single job right down, what was good, what sucked.

580
00:29:56.680 --> 00:29:59.160
And what I learned. And when you do that kind

581
00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:00.480
of an inventory, you.

582
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:03.000
Start to uncover patterns, so I don't have to go

583
00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:06.559
what were your patterns? You know, I helped them uncovering

584
00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:08.960
the business world what their patterns are and guess what

585
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:11.480
those patterns are going to be reflected in your life.

586
00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:13.640
And it helps uncover what you need to do to

587
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:16.400
move forward to break that pattern. You know, that's on

588
00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:18.880
the challenge side. It also uncovers what the strengths are

589
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:22.240
that you're bringing forward into the next phase of your career.

590
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:23.599
Well, and that's great.

591
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:25.279
You know. One of the things that you and I

592
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:29.680
talked about is the experience you had with your dad

593
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:34.039
and your relationship with your father and how that was

594
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:37.359
such a journey for you and the impact that that had.

595
00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:40.640
Would you mind sharing with the audience that story?

596
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.759
Sure, and there are multiphases to that story.

597
00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:48.759
I already mentioned that their marriage, my parents' marriage didn't

598
00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:51.559
last very long that you know. Again, they were married

599
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:53.559
when she was eighteen, She had me when she was nineteen.

600
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:55.599
She was single by the time she was twenty. So

601
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:58.559
I met him when I was ten for the first time,

602
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:00.519
you know, we saw each other. There were a few

603
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:03.839
times back and forth after I wanted to rehab. It

604
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:05.680
was brought up to me as something that I really

605
00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:09.079
needed to resolve in fact or rehab storry. So it

606
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:11.400
was brought to something that I really needed to resolve,

607
00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:14.240
and so I reached out to him.

608
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:17.759
Let me, let me struggle, what did you need to resolve.

609
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:21.880
The impact of the impact of his absence in my life, okay,

610
00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:24.640
and the impact that it it had on me.

611
00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:27.519
You know that I never it was one, Doug.

612
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:29.480
It was one of the biggest challenges of the whole

613
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:31.839
time because they said, oh, you know, like they would

614
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:34.640
do psychodrama and you'd have to like role play this thing, Like, dude,

615
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:36.759
I don't have anything to role play, you know, and

616
00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:39.400
they're like, oh no, And you know, we had to

617
00:31:39.400 --> 00:31:41.599
work through it. And I found an incident, you know,

618
00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:45.400
and where I had seen him and we worked through that,

619
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:48.880
and so that that lack of relationship, and I think

620
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:50.720
that's true again for a lot of men, right the

621
00:31:50.839 --> 00:31:53.680
lack of relationship, whether your father was physically absence or

622
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:56.759
emotionally absent, is one of those key things that influences

623
00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:57.680
how we move forward.

624
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:01.640
So, you know, after or I got out of rehab.

625
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:03.799
I reached out to him, and he came down and

626
00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:07.759
visited and and you know, he was actively drinking, and

627
00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:10.160
at this point I wasn't. Right at this point, I

628
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:13.200
was freshot rehab, and so I was we weren't able

629
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:16.839
to connect, and we met and then we really kind

630
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:18.480
of didn't see each other for a while.

631
00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:20.960
And then I went to school, I got my degree.

632
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:23.000
I worked at the jail, and that's when I started to.

633
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:26.279
Have this really transformative experience because, like I said, I

634
00:32:26.359 --> 00:32:29.640
was working in you know, an inpatient basically an inpatient

635
00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:30.799
rehab inside the jail.

636
00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:33.119
So we'd have groups where all men.

637
00:32:33.720 --> 00:32:35.960
Really the first time I had ever been in a

638
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.519
group of men that way. I've been in the military,

639
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:40.519
but it's you know, it's mixed gender. It's a very

640
00:32:40.519 --> 00:32:43.200
different thing. Every once in a while, these tough guys,

641
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:46.079
you know, covered with tattoos, and you know, histories or

642
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:49.599
problems and challenges would get real, and they might talk

643
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:53.160
about their father and their relationship. But most importantly, I

644
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:56.400
found that they talked about the last lack of relationships

645
00:32:56.480 --> 00:33:00.200
they had with their sons and their nephews. And know

646
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.920
it was I could relate to that, you know, I

647
00:33:02.920 --> 00:33:05.680
could relate to the loss. So then I would work

648
00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:08.160
outie as they say, inside defense and outside defense. So

649
00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:11.920
then I work outside the fence in the adolescent boot camp,

650
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:15.359
and I'd go and have groups with young men who

651
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.079
were the sons and nephews of the men inside the fence,

652
00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:22.920
who then would talk to me about their anger about

653
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:26.440
the loss of relationships with their fathers and uncles. So

654
00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:29.960
the dads were talking about their grief over the loss

655
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:33.000
of relationships with their sons and nephews, and the sons

656
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:36.079
and nephews were talking about their anger about their relationships

657
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:40.039
with their father. This impact, this really impacted me tremendously

658
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:41.880
as I kind of worked through my own things. So

659
00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:43.880
this is in the snail mail days, and I wrote

660
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:45.880
a letter in my father and I said what I

661
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:48.160
just said to you, and I wrote at the bottom,

662
00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:49.640
I'm one if you or the other let me know.

663
00:33:50.200 --> 00:33:53.720
And within a matter of a couple of weeks, you know,

664
00:33:53.799 --> 00:33:55.759
snail mail. So then the matter of a couple of

665
00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:58.400
weeks he knocked on my door and said, I got

666
00:33:58.440 --> 00:33:58.839
your letter.

667
00:33:58.920 --> 00:33:59.480
Let's talk.

668
00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:03.599
So you know, I'm thirty five, and that kind of

669
00:34:03.640 --> 00:34:07.079
took us to the next level of our relationship. At

670
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:08.960
that point, I was still in recovery, I was still

671
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:12.159
working in the community. He wasn't, So we still kind

672
00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:14.880
of bounced back and forth off each other. And then

673
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:19.000
as I went through my relapse journey and went back,

674
00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:21.679
you know, went back to drinking, we were able to

675
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:24.920
find that as a common bond and whether it was

676
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.880
healthy or not, it was something that allowed us to

677
00:34:26.920 --> 00:34:30.320
move our relationship forward in that phase. So now fast

678
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:33.199
forward through that period of time, you know, we still

679
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:35.360
kind of bounced off each other. I was still struggling

680
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:37.360
with my double life as I went through this and

681
00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:40.079
trying to get healthy, but would be uncomfortable with who

682
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:42.840
I became often when I was with him, because I

683
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:45.840
would try to please him with you know, or to

684
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:49.239
match him with the use. But so now it's fast

685
00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:54.159
forward to twenty twenty three and going through this traumatic time,

686
00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:56.880
So I said, the first thing that happened was that

687
00:34:57.079 --> 00:35:01.320
my mother died, and then following that his wife, his

688
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:04.800
second wife, my stepmother, died and then he died in

689
00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:09.639
this ninety nine day window. And I have two have siblings,

690
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:13.280
two half siblings, and then a nephew that all live

691
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:14.960
up there, and we're with him, and you.

692
00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:16.880
Know, they we had all kind of touched each other

693
00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:17.400
a little bit.

694
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:20.400
It was like he was the hub and we were spokes,

695
00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:21.920
so we kind of touched each other, but it was

696
00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:25.559
really about Jack. And they called and asked me to

697
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:27.920
go there because he was really ill and it looked

698
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:28.880
like it might be the end.

699
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:31.199
And Doug what happened.

700
00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:33.760
I went up there and you know, Trudy was gone,

701
00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:35.480
his wife was gone, she had already passed.

702
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:38.519
He was in the hospital. So they let you know,

703
00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:40.480
they said, go stay at his house. Just go go

704
00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:40.920
stay there.

705
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:43.000
There's no TV, there's no nothing in there, but just

706
00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:45.519
go stay there instead of staying at a hotel. And

707
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:48.760
I walked in and because they had already started with

708
00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:51.039
the loss of their mother, they'd gone through so many

709
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:54.840
things at the house. And Jeff, my brother, answered me

710
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:56.239
this box and he says, hey, this is the only

711
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:58.760
thing we haven't gone through. This is the private the

712
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:02.320
you know, the private photo. This is Jack's private photos,

713
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:04.000
and it's the only thing we haven't gone through. Take

714
00:36:04.039 --> 00:36:05.880
some time and look through these things. And so I

715
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:07.639
pick up and I open this box.

716
00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:09.840
And it's really kind of the story of his life

717
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:12.320
in these photos. And in the middle of.

718
00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:15.119
This there's a bag, plastic bag, and I pick up

719
00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:18.000
the plastic bag and all it's.

720
00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:20.039
All photos and letters for me.

721
00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:24.639
And it's not just photos and letters for me from

722
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:29.000
when we re established our relationship. It's somehow photos of

723
00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:33.079
me from a time from the time, you know, before

724
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.119
we established our relationship, from.

725
00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:36.199
The zero to thirty phase.

726
00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:41.239
And it was just so impactful to uncover this and

727
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:45.480
see that, you know, at some level, he really he

728
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:47.639
really kind of did pay attention and care and it

729
00:36:47.719 --> 00:36:51.960
refrained so much of how I looked at my life

730
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:53.960
and how I looked at our relationship. And again, this

731
00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:58.079
is literally days weeks before he passed and I was

732
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:00.000
up there and we actually had a chance to talk

733
00:37:00.199 --> 00:37:02.480
about that and get to kind of a different level

734
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:06.199
of reconciliation. And it's a big part of this journey,

735
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:10.480
this transformational journey that I'm on since that season of

736
00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:13.840
grief of losing those three very important people, and it

737
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:15.559
just showed me something really different.

738
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.599
I mean, it just showed me, you know.

739
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:20.840
It helped me understand that he was doing the best

740
00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:24.280
he could with the resources that he had, just like

741
00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:26.039
I had been in my life doing the best I

742
00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:28.199
could with the resources I had. Sorry, that was a

743
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:29.920
long answer, Yeah.

744
00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:33.639
But that was a wonderful answer, and I appreciate your transparency.

745
00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:35.840
You know, what comes to my mind as you talk

746
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:39.119
about that is, particularly in the United States, you hear

747
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:43.679
all of these statistics about children that.

748
00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:44.880
Grow up without a father.

749
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:49.480
Yeah, and you know, recognizing the damage that can occur.

750
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:52.639
But one of the points I think you make for

751
00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:56.000
many who have gone through divorces, because you know, it's

752
00:37:56.079 --> 00:38:00.280
upwards of fifty percent, and there's obvious reasons for that,

753
00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:03.800
some ballads and not but the importance, I guess what

754
00:38:03.880 --> 00:38:05.960
I'm getting from you, and I want you to just

755
00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:10.239
briefly talk about this is the importance of the dad,

756
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:14.320
because usually it goes to the mom. Usually they get custody.

757
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:17.519
The importance of the dad, even though they've moved into

758
00:38:17.559 --> 00:38:21.400
a different direction of their life. The importance of staying

759
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:24.639
in touch and close with their kids as much as

760
00:38:24.679 --> 00:38:30.320
they can. Right, sometimes if the exife will allow, Right, Yeah.

761
00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:33.280
Sometimes. Before I answer that, I just have to give.

762
00:38:33.159 --> 00:38:35.239
You a little, a little anecdote that I think reflects

763
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:38.360
what you're saying so much. And again, I'm a boomer,

764
00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:41.679
so I'm a child of the sixties. And the first

765
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:44.480
time I realized that I wasn't the only person in

766
00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:47.000
the world that didn't have a dad, I was about ten,

767
00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:50.199
and you know, during that and part of that was

768
00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:51.840
easing and bullying.

769
00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:53.039
About the fact that I didn't have a dad.

770
00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:56.400
Okay, So fast forward now to I'm working in my

771
00:38:56.679 --> 00:39:00.280
practicums to get my master's degree, and I work in

772
00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:02.960
all the different schools. I worked in elementary schools and

773
00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:05.719
all the different levels of schools, and I was doing

774
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:08.920
this group for ten year olds and there was one

775
00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:12.239
kid that was getting really picked on or teased by

776
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:14.519
the group, and it was because he was the only

777
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:15.599
person in the group.

778
00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:17.760
That had two parents living at home. Wow.

779
00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:23.360
So the juxtaposition again, you know, as you just said,

780
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:26.559
you know the prevalence of divorce, you know, the changes,

781
00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:29.000
the absence of the fathers, all of that is so

782
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:33.000
tied together, you know, even dealing again with the kids.

783
00:39:33.320 --> 00:39:35.840
You know, the kids in the boot camp were trying

784
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:40.119
to many of them were seventeen eighteen and already had children,

785
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:43.000
you know, and we're trying to do what they could

786
00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:45.679
to be able to support the baby mama and to

787
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:48.440
support the baby. And sometimes that's what got him in

788
00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:50.639
trouble because they could go work in McDonald's for seven

789
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:52.800
dollars an hour, where they could sling crack for you know,

790
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:56.079
two hundred dollars a day, right, Yeah, and that was

791
00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:59.599
part of the conflict. So you know this the absence,

792
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:05.559
the absence of a male role model, you know, is

793
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:08.440
so prevalent in our culture and it creates so many

794
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:12.000
challenges because men don't know how to perform well. They

795
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:14.320
they don't learn or they learn by watching John Wayne

796
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:15.320
or John Wick. Yeah.

797
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:19.360
And so dads, if you're divorced and your children are

798
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:22.760
with your ex, for heaven's sakes, stay close to them.

799
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:26.960
Do whatever it takes, if possible, to get that communication open,

800
00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:28.400
because it makes a difference.

801
00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:31.519
As you say, yeah, they're going to recognize whether you're

802
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:34.199
there or not. They're going to know that and it's

803
00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:38.280
going to impact them and this isn't about guilty dads,

804
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:40.960
because dads are doing the best they can with the

805
00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:43.639
resources that they have, right exactly.

806
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:46.800
So, as we close, and again it just amazes me

807
00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:49.079
how fast time goes by. And this has been just

808
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:51.719
an incredible conversation. I appreciate it.

809
00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:54.800
But how do people find you? Yeah?

810
00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:57.960
So, like I said, I had a pretty long business career,

811
00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:00.639
So I hang out on LinkedIn, So you can find

812
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:03.079
me on LinkedIn at Mark Wigan ten.

813
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:04.920
I also have a website.

814
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:09.119
It's focusing on results, focusing on results dot com. And

815
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:11.880
from there, you know, you can subscribe to my newsletter.

816
00:41:12.039 --> 00:41:14.760
I read a newsletter that comes out every other Tuesday

817
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:16.960
focusing on it's called.

818
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:17.519
Your Next Chapter.

819
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:20.400
So it's focusing on midlife transition, the kind of things

820
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:23.280
that we talked about, and other issues that are related

821
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:25.599
to midlife change. Those are the best ways to find me,

822
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:28.280
and I'd love to have your audience subscribe.

823
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:29.360
Oh wonderful.

824
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:33.719
And so as we close, what would be that final thought,

825
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:36.480
that final message you'd want to share with the audience.

826
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:39.559
Well, I think I think there are really two pieces

827
00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:41.119
to it. One is talking.

828
00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:44.440
Back about my relationship with my father and that evolution

829
00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:47.119
and you know, it might not have been the relationship

830
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:49.400
that either one of us really wanted, but it was

831
00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:52.800
the relationship that we had, and it was the relationship

832
00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:55.880
that we made work. And back to your point about

833
00:41:55.880 --> 00:41:59.119
the importance of connecting, and I think that that tied

834
00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:03.159
to the message of you know, understanding that you don't

835
00:42:03.159 --> 00:42:05.519
have to fix everything, you know, you just have to

836
00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:09.559
open a door. And really kind of the bottom line

837
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:14.320
being every day you have the chance to start again. Okay,

838
00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:16.719
no matter how old you are, every day you have

839
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:17.800
a chance to start again.

840
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:22.199
Oh that's wonderful, Mark, thanks so much. Number one.

841
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:24.360
I appreciate you reaching out to me like you did

842
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:28.360
on LinkedIn, and it's rare that someone does that on LinkedIn,

843
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:32.440
so I appreciate that. And you know, quite frankly, your

844
00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:35.639
story and what you're doing now I think is making

845
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:37.880
such a difference for the people you work with.

846
00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:40.400
So I want to just applaud you for that.

847
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:42.079
Well, thank you.

848
00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:44.000
And I will say Doug that there are so few

849
00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:49.039
mental health focused or transformation focused podcasts. You're making a

850
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:52.000
really impact by your message as well. I mean, it's

851
00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:54.440
important to let people know that it's okay to talk

852
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:55.159
about this stuff.

853
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:56.519
And you do that well.

854
00:42:56.599 --> 00:42:59.079
Thank you and folks, thanks for listening, and I hope

855
00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:02.360
you've enjoyed this. Be sure to reach out to Mark.

856
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:04.960
I think that you're going to find some really interesting stuff,

857
00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:07.079
particularly the newsletter I think is great.

858
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:09.800
So thanks for listening. I hope you'll join us again soon.

859
00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:13.840
This is doctor Doug as usual, saying no mistake