The Power of Conscious Conversation with Chuck Wisner

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0:44 Denzel Washington, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you to do the same. Suck Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Happy to be here. Well, it's good to have you and folks, Just so you know, we had a chat what was it about a month ago? And about a month ago, Yeah, and I had some issues on my end with the sound system, and it's like we couldn't do it, and so we have rescheduled, and I'm really excited about this because our conversation before was so enlightening, and I really appreciate this book that you've written and the concepts that you've come up with. So what I'd love for you to do is share with the audience who you are and what motivated you to write the book The art of conscious communication.

1:32 The art of conscious conversations, their conversation. I'm sorry, yeah, yeah, Well who am I? That's a big question. I know we all ask ourselves that, don't we? Yeah? Who am I? Anyway, well, I'd say writing the book was my fourth career. I was originally a musician. I was an architect in Boston for twenty years, and I changed careers when I started studying language and leadership, and so that's sort of how that all evolved and interesting just to underscore that is, I never was rejecting the previous profession. I was more fell in love with a new one and I couldn't help myself. So I ended up doing leadership coaching and advising for the last twenty five thirty years at large corporations with the executives and their teams. And then the book came about because some of my clients said, I love all the work we're doing, but I don't know how to connect the dots, and is there a book I can read? And I realized there was a lot of different books, but the work we were doing was a compilation of all those.

2:45 So I decided, maybe I can put all the pieces together. And that's what inspired me to write the book. All right, and you've actually put four pieces together? What are they? Yeah? Yeah, so the thing that connects all those different pieces? One client says, how do I connect the dots? Right? That stuck with me. And then I realized when I was studying the ontology of language that there's four types basic types of conversations that we're in all the time, but we're not aware of those those and those four conversations storytelling, collaboration, creativity, and commitment. Conversations are the structure that hold all the different tools and practices that help us be better in our communications.

3:31 Okay, and you know, as we look at what the problem is, and I want to go into that. First of all, what is the issue? What is the problem that you have experienced three or many years of working with companies and individuals that you found need this type of help. What are the issues that come up with people in general. So in general, I think we are in conversations all the time. It's the one human tool that we have across the world globe, you know, conversations. And yet we adopt our conversational patterns unconsciously through our culture, our family. So we learn to talk, we mimic our families, we mimic our our cultures, and then we learn through experience.

4:18 So we're in conversation often on autopilot without understanding them as deeply as we can. And so when we're on autopilot, we we are playing out our pattern but not always to our benefit or to to the creativity of a to the creative to the to the generation of a good, good conversation. So in some ways it's like being we are in conversations, but we don't really know how they work. And so my book is trying to say, let's take it apart a little bit, let's look deeply into it, how they how they work, and what we can learn from each kind of conversation. Well, and you know, it's interesting as we look at what's going on in the country in the US right now, those conversations are not working.

5:04 Real well, not at all if I if I could stick my book under the pillow of every politician, I would, Well. That would be nice. But even as we look at divorce rates, as we look at challenges that parents have with their children and vice versa, as we look at all of that, recognizing that conversation and I said communication, But it's conversation that creates that communication that. Becomes the major issue. And you know, and we'll get into this maybe a little bit later if we have time, But I was thinking today as I was re listening to a little bit of our conversation before, is that even the conversation we have with ourselves, yes, in our lives. And so as we go through this, you know, we'll talk about those on different levels. But at this point in time, let's go have you explain Number one, what are the individual areas you talked about, storytelling, collaborative, creative commitment.

6:06 Let's go through each one of those to begin with. Also, at the. Beginning of your book, you talked about ego and I'm trying to figure out how that fits in. So if you can fit that in and let me know where that fits in, I want to get into that conversation too. Okay, great, so I'll do a brief explanation of each conversation, okay, And if you want to do a dive into each one, just interrupt me. Or if you have a question about each one, just interrupt me. We'll do it after you've explained them all. Okay, I'll do it. I'll do a brief explanation. So storytelling is primary. I say that because that's how we live, lot that's how humans live. We live through stories. And Uval Harari's book Sapiens does a great history lesson in how this evolved, So that law is a story and money is a story, but they stick because we all agree on them. We read that the dollar is worth x.

7:02 But anyway, So in our personal lives, we also have stories. We have stories about ourselves and we have stories about other people. Some are helpful, some are harmful. The helpful ones we connect with people, we love people, we have good relationships. The harmful ones hold us back individually because we aren't living up to our potential or they do damage to a relationship. So exploring our stories and the storytelling conversation is primary because it helps us do all the other conversations better. Now ego comes in because the ego loves our stories, loves our beliefs and the package that we have about how we see the world, and convinces us that, yeah, you're right, you know you're right, and you should fight for your position. However, it sort of is a constricting element. Ego sort of gets us to be tight and hold on to our perspectives and beliefs, and so we aren't as open as we could be, open mind, open heart. But when we begin to look at them and we increase our awareness, stories are like put us in the ego is like putting as foggy and gets us in the fog. We identify with our positions and we can't see very much. When we become aware of our stories, that's like bringing that's like bringing light to the situation. So now we can say, oh, I have that a story I adopted from my dad, or I'm behaving that way because that's what I was

8:32 taught to do, and so then we have a chance to change. So storytelling is very personal and it's very profound. Now as we do that work, the next conversation, which is relational, the collaborative conversation, is the conversation between you and I, or meet and five people or meeting ten people in a meeting that's relational because everybody now is bringing their story to the table. And so we've all been in meetings where everyone has their perspective and there's a lot of disagreement around the room. But the real art of collaboration conversations is our ability to advocate with an open hand instead of a fist, and to listen in a way that we can really absorb other people, ask good questions and learn from one another. So the tools, the basic tools there are open advocacy and open inquiry versus closed advocacy and close inquiry. So when we do that collaborative thing, we learn from each other and we get smart together instead of getting domb together. And it's just another way of sort of opening our minds, and it takes humility and it takes vulnerability. We do that conversation well, we are in a creative conversation where we generate ideas, ideas that bubble up out of an open space conversation, a good collaborative conversation. We all had that experience in a meeting or with someone where we go

10:03 we're talking and all of a sudden, because we're sharing ideas, An idea bubbles up and says, oh, I never thought of it that way, we could do X. And that came out of the collaborative conversation because we were both open and ideas are available to us. So the creative conversation is about relational, but it's also personal in that do we exercise our right brain? Do we exercise our creative self? Do we allow ourselves to dream about possibilities or to wonder what ifs? So that's an interesting conversation because it's relational and personal. And then if we do all those conversations well, ideally we go into a commitmic conversation, which is really the action conversation is how we coordinate getting things done with other people. So it's very relevant to our everyday life from the kitchen sync to the boardroom.

10:56 Yet that is a complex conversation that we don't understand and we tend to do it in a sloppy manner. So we make promises we shouldn't make, We make promises we can't keep, We make promises that break, and then that that is a that is a precursor to to losing losing trust in people. So that action conversation we love it, but we don't do it well well. And I love how how you've got step by step, and I think it's fascinating that you know, if you haven't been able to accomplish step number one, which is a storytelling, you're not able to move into step number two. And do you have any specific examples that you could share with the audience. I know I have a couple, but let's see if you do where people were experiencing that challenge of storytelling and what the effect was on that relationship.

11:52 I have a personal story that I'm willing to share that's in the book, actually, and that is what I grew up with a step grandfather who was a bit of a redneck, which means super conservative and racist. But I had three sisters. I was a younger son. Later I had a brother. But so in my growing up, when I showed emotions or cried like my sisters, or I didn't want to shoot the deer, or I didn't want to do something that was in his eyes, manly, he constantly told me I wasn't a big enough man. So, as a young boy with an authority figure telling me that, I unconsciously adopted that story. That story became a really internal dialogue I had with myself that was very harmful because no matter what I was doing, and I had some great successes, but no matter what I was doing, that was always nagging in the back of my mind.

12:48 I was not good enough. You're not big enough, you're not man enough, you're not strong enough. And it wasn't until I busted that story by investigating facts and saying, wait a minute, that's his idea what man is, But I don't need to I don't know. I no longer need to adopt his idea. Well, and that was that was life changing. How did that affect your communication and your conversations with other people that very astue that I'm not good enough? Yeah, well, it lifts a it lifts sort of an internal filter that that always has you feeling a little less confident or a lot less confident, or it lifts some some some barrier that allows you to be totally who you are and be comfortable in your own skin.

13:36 And then you can be open in dialogue and open in conversation and more vulnerable because you're confident in your skin. So it's sort of like a lifting a veil of suppression. Well, that makes sense. It does. And you know, as you were talking about ego, one of the things that came to my mind is because I think we've all experienced wonder where or another I'm not good enough, We've all kind of developed that subconscious concept for whatever reason and oftentimes, and this is just the thought that I had. How often is it that that ego then is saying, I'm going to prove that I am right. I'm going to prove that I am good enough. And therefore that ego gets in our way because we're not willing to be able to move that ego to the side and listen.

14:24 That's right, yes, right exactly. So when we have we had we grow up learning to advocate and have strong positions and have answers and be smart and all that jazz. So we have these we have these ideas about the world and beliefs and perspectives, but we tend to get identified with them. And that's what our ego does. It keeps us identified with that and until we can sort of step out like with Like I said, awareness is like the separation. Now I can be out here, I think, be a witness to my thinking, and then from there I can say I can change that. But if we're identified with it, we're going to defend it to death. And our ego is there to us help us do that.

15:05 So they are wearing this sort of brings the light and brings the opportunity to go, wait a minute, I don't have to do that. I can do this well. In one of the stories I want to share, and I shared this with you before, but you know, I have a neighbor that dropped out where I was back in the US for a week or so, and I had a neighbor drop by and say, hey, how are you doing? And we started talking and just you know, really a friendly guy, good. Friend, and so forth. And we were chatting a little bit and you know, and I said, hey, I didn't see you at church last Sunday. He goes, yeah, I'm going okay. I said, so what's up? He says, well, you know, the people there just I'm not comfortable with the way they think a lot of them.

15:48 And I'm going really, and I started to get an idea of what was all about, but it. Was like, so tell me about it. And so he started to share with me that his particular political thinking and beliefs were such that was very opposite of the majority of the people that we both knew at church. And as I was asking him, and you know, I was trying to, you know, at least get into the collaborative part. But as I was asking him about that, you know, it's like, well, this is what's happening, and this is what's happening, and I'm. Going, wha, wha, wait a minute, what about this? And what about that? Oh, that's just fake news. And then he just went on and on and on they mean a little bit more towards the left.

16:32 And I thought to myself, how sad is. It that we can allow this ego, we can allow this situation to occur to where it literally affects our life in a negative way. It starts to eliminate friendships potentially that could be so valuable, and in some ways it literally changes how we live our lives. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely it. Yeah, that identity, that that clenching, you know, to our perspective or clenching to our identity. Then we can't be open, we can't listen, we can't absorb. And and that's that's that's part of the work, and that's why, that's why it takes a. It takes courage to look like, do I really? You know, there's only three things in stories. There's facts, which is debatable these days according to some people. There's there's there's our emotions, and then there's our opinions. And so our emotions are a sign that we should be investigating our investigating our thinking.

17:39 Because it was proof that said our emotions are a physical upheaval of our thinking. Yes, right, so we have we have an emotion, and then there's when we look at it, take the courage to look at it. We go underneath and go why am I angry? Why am I disappointed? Why am I frustrated? Well, there's a story there. They shouldn't treat me that way. We shouldn't do that. Women shouldn't behave that way. Men shouldn't treat women that way. We have these stories and I'm not saying they're good or bad, and I'm not saying get rid of them, but investigate them because as soon as we have a look at them, then we are free and we can change them or we can adopt right, So those are signs to look at our thinking. And then facts are facts, no matter what we've experienced. The last ten years or so.

18:26 But opinions is where things get messy because our opinions are our beliefs and everything we've accumulated over time, and that we get cling to, that we get attached to well. And you know, as you talked about that, and you talked about awareness to use the word awareness and courage, and what comes to my mind is, and this has been a question in my mind for a long time, how do we help people or how do we as individuals help ourselves to really become aware? How do we get to the point where we. Can say to ourselves, you know what, I'm allowing the story to affect my relationship with others, I'm allowing a story to affect my conversation with others. How do we become aware?

19:08 And how do we you know, and how do we develop the courage to go, Okay, I'm aware now I know I need to do something about it. Yeah. Yeah, So there's a couple of steps. One step is to the courage is to acknowledge that our story is not the truth, that our opinion is not the truth, because you know, the truth, the truth is a big, big, big subject, a whole podcast we could have on but you know, we can start saying, wait, man, my opinion isn't the truth. So what do I have? So I have my emotional feelings, I have my thinking, what are the facts? Let's ground ourselves in facts that you and I wouldn't couldn't disagree on, you know, And then we have the we have the willingness to say, okay, my opinion is made up with certain things. And in my book, I have these four quintessential questions, and that weave through each conversation. That's a great shortcut for investigating our own stories and for helping other people share theirs. And that the way I like to think of it is that we come into a conversation, we're attached to our position like a fift and with these four questions, we can slowly open our hand by the four questions, and we're in a conversation sharing the thinking under our opinion or under our judgment, rather than just clinging to the to the to the judgment and the opinion. So by that opening our hand, we are being humble. We're saying, my

20:40 story is a story, but it's not the story. And so then we can invite other people to do the same. So I'm happy to show those four questions, and we're. Going to ask you what are those four questions we need to ask ourselves? And that's really at the basis of storytelling, isn't it at that level. That's right at that level if we if we look at our emotions and say, okay, there's a story under our emotions, and then we check the facts. The next thing to do is let's take apart our opinions and our judgments that have us sort of stock or have us feeling rigid. So the four questions to open our hand is first of every judgment we have, is there's a desire underneath something's happening that we didn't want to have happened, or we want something to happen that we have no control over in the future. Desires can be a good thing because they can create goals and they can inspire us to do things. But there are also traps when we have a desire that doesn't align with reality, and so there's always it's always there in the background, but we forget often to surface it and share it.

21:45 So it's a powerful piece. I'll go through them quickly because they each could have more depth. The second is concerns, so every opinion we have, we have a concern that's based in time. What's going to happen next week? I don't want tomorrow to feel like today. And concerns are you know, we all have concerns, but often in difficult conversations attached to our position, we forget to share our concern. I'm concerned that X might happen if we don't do why and that that's a very different conversation because no one can sort of argue with your concern. They might have a different concern, but they can't argue with it. The third third question is questions of authority. Every relationship we're in with kids, with partners, with our colleagues, with our bosses, with our community, we give different people's voices, different levels of authority. These are power issues. It's very obvious in hierarchies, because there's there's a man made hierarchy that says you have more power than you more stripes than I do, so I got to listen to what you say. That's very obvious. It creates its own set of problems inside corporations and inside leadership. Right, but every conversation we have has power issues involved. Even with friends, Some friends we give their if they think we aren't doing something well, one person we might say, well, I'm interested to know why do you think that? Another friend

23:16 might say that, and we just brush them off because we don't give their opinion much authority. So this always playing out in every conversation. It's good to check and in with ourselves and say are there power issues at play? And the last one is lovely because it's everywhere. Every judgment we have, every opinion we have, is based on our standards. And standards is an umbrella word for our values, our morals, what's right, wrong, good, bad, ugly, pretty, all those things. It's a packaged deal. That's that every judgment you have, ask yourself, what standard am I holding that's allowing me to say he's being an idiot or I'm not good enough, or she shouldn't behave that way? What is a standard underneath? We did not adopt most of our standards. I I'm sorry. We did not consciously adopt our standards. We adopted them through our families and our cultures, and so then we live them. But often they get us in trouble because we aren't willing to investigate them.

24:18 So those four things are a really good way to get what I'm doing is I'm saying, Okay, what are my desires, what are my concerns? Are their powers? Use? What are my standards? I'm opening my hand and I'm sharing my thinking, which is why I say it can feel vulnerable. Well, and as you get to standards, you know, the thing that comes to my mind is AI And what happens now is that you know, if we're on Facebook, if we're on anything, or if we're listening to news, we will tend to have reinforced to our mind the very thing that we tend to listen to, and so we keep getting reinforced that Yeah, I'm right, I'm right, I'm right, this is the standard. This is a correct standard, when in fact it may or may not be. As you said, truth at this point in time had really a tough thing to define.

25:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we should remember that. You know, it's very easy because of our ears and how we've learned to listen that we do not make a distinction between facts and opinions or in your in the case you brought up facts and standards. Our standards are just what's right or wrong. It doesn't mean that we necessarily have the truth of the matter right, so investigate the facts and they go, what is my standard? I often do, not often, but I used to do some courses with women around communication and conversations. With with with men, and when we would get to standards, I was if I was teaching about standards, I would ask the room, so, how many of you if you leave home and the beds aren't made you feel like you're not a good enough wife, not a good enough husband, not a good enough wife, not a good mother, And most hands would go up.

26:02 Yeah, and I'm saying, now, no judgment, however, all my only question is where did where, from whom? How did you adopt that standard? And then when they look, they go, oh, yeah, well, as we just that's what my mother taught me. That's what my grandmother insisted on. That's whatever. So it's fine you can hold that standard, but if you hold it as a standard and not the truth, you might have to rush off to work one day and not may have the beds made or not. The kids don't make their beds, But you don't have to carry the burden of believing that you're a bad mom because you did that well. And that's true. And you know what's what's interesting to me is, you know, we've spent a huge amount of time just on that basic storytelling because without overcoming that foundational issue, we cannot.

26:48 Move into the collaborative. And then as we move into the collaborative again, that's where the ego, at least in my mind, the ego comes in. Because if you're if you're on. Opposite side of me, let's say, politically, and you want to start sharing your issues, first thing my ego. Is going to do is, oh, no, no, you're wrong, you're wrong, this is what's right. You know that's right. Whereas if we're both in that mentality of you know what, I really want to have a conversation because I really want to maintain a friendship here, and it's like, so I'm going to listen and I'm going to be open, and I may ask some questions, but they're not antagonistic questions, just helping me to understand.

27:31 And is that where the collaboration comes in. Yeah. The two basic tools of a good collaborative conversation is open advocacy and open open inquiry. And but to understand that the opposite is we're trained to be clothed advocates or or or or non productive at we're trained to sort of defend our position whole and have a have a have you know defense that in fact, we're trained that way from school on to have the answer. We're not trained to ask questions, right, So the difference between closed advocacy and open advocacy is really that willingness to share our thinking underneath our position, to reveal our thinking.

28:16 That's the that's the humble vulnerability part. On the other side of the equation, the inquiry is rather than asking questions to prove them wrong, to prove my point right, we ask questions to truly understand the other person's position and guess what. The four questions are a great shortcut recipe for asking good questions. So if we were in a disagreement around politics, I say, what do you? What do you what's your desire here? What are you trying to accomplish? What's the goal in your position, or what are you concerned about? What's your deepest concern about this issue? Or what are your standards whether we're talking about abortion or gun control, or what are your standards for making this judgment? What we're doing when we ask good questions that we're opening other we're helping other people open their hand and reveal their thinking. Now, that doesn't always work because some people just won't can't open their fist. It's too scary, it's too you know, vulnerable. But many people it's if you do it, they'll do it. There's an open heart to open heart, but you don't always get that, but you do your best by asking the good questions.

29:31 Well, and I appreciate what you said because when you first were saying asking questions, I'm thinking, okay, so let me ask you a question. What do you think about this? The fact that these facts have come out and so forth? And that's doing exactly the opposite of what you said. That's trying to do right. Rather than that, it's like. Okay, tell me a little bit about your standards, tell me a little bit about that, and really seeming to understand them. And yeah, I would. Assume that if that happens, and you're right, some people that are so closed off that it's not going to make any difference, and right, that's something we can't control. But for those that are willing to be opened a little bit to that all of a sudden they will share that. And as they share that, then how do we respond to the answer to the questions that we ask them as they tell us, all right, here's my standard or here's you know, here's this or that.

30:24 Well, so that could play out different different ways, but one mediate response would be, wow, that's interesting, I have a different standard. Uh, and here this is my standard. Interesting that we we have different standards that somehow we adopt it, you know, through life. And so let's let's talk about that a little bit, because there there we can connect and we can see, you know, we're not talking about a universal yet it's right or wrong. We're talking about oh wow, we're thinking about this differently. That's a very different conversation than pointing fingers and saying you know, I'm right, you're wrong, and we're in a fistfight. Right, So one is to just acknowledge their point of view, their standard, their concerns, their desires, and we can acknowledge, we can disagree, we can take each one apart a little bit if they're willing, so we can find even if we find one common idea that we share, that's a thread to keep our friendship alive. That's a thread to keep our connection alive.

31:30 Well, and I think sometimes we may stop at collaborative h In other words, look, you know what, you and I are friends, and let's disagree to disagree, and that's it, and let's avoid that conversation because we've got so many other things that are so good. All right, yes, but if you can then move into the next step, the creativity, how. Does that happen? And what happens there? So if two people are willing to open their hands and have an open minded, open hearted conversation, what we're creating in the conversation is space. We're creating an open space in our minds and in the conversation. So think of it as a dialogue that's rather too fist fighting.

32:17 It's this life of exploration, like, oh wow, we're really learning from each other. And from that space we go what's possible? And that's the heart of the creative conversation, what's possible? Can we wonder what else might be? And that's a really lovely conversation because it forces us to get out of our single minded, linear, rational left brain into our right brain, which is a bigger thinker connects the dots, you know, has has ideas, but that's a different process because it takes courage on our part to go, I have a position, but then maybe there's four mores that we haven't thought of. Let's just do it. Let's brainstorm.

33:03 Now we all know the word brainstorm, but without understanding conversations, we get into brainstorms. And as soon as somebody says an idea, the next person says that will never work. We tried it a year ago, and that shuts down the creative conversation. Well, and I know what comes to my mind, and it's just very recent, you know, the immigration policy. I mean, you've got those on one side that says absolutely, we've got to close those borders, and we've got other people saying, yeah, but you know what, there's some good people that need to come in that so on and so forth. And what I've observed just recently, and I don't know where it's going, but I've observed people on both sides coming together and saying, you know what, we need to look at the immigration policy and make changes so that we can do the good that we need to do, but at the same time prevent the bad that we need to prevent.

34:01 And I saw that happening and to me, that's. Such a great example of how that creativity is coming into place. Whether they're able to do it or not. We'll see, yeah, yeah, no, that's a whole other subject, but yeah, no, that's a perfect example. It's it's such an opportunity to wonder, I wonder what else we could create? I wonder what else is possible? And that's you know, you have to give up your hold on the truth and you're and you have to give up in your attachment to your identity to be in that wonder space, to be in that space of wow, there's we could redo this whole damn thing. So it really really works for everybody exactly exactly.

34:44 And so as we move from that creative aspect now to the commitment, what what's the difference between creative conversation and commitment conversation? So, you know, from from from exploring our store worries to being in a good collaborative conversation and then being in a creative conversation is sort of an opening in our in our mind, we're getting we're thinking bigger, we're more open, we're more humble, and we're getting smart. Together, the commitment conversation is actually a collapse back into a position because it says, Okay, we've done all the exploration, but now we have to get to work. Who's going to do what by when? So it is how we get things done with other people, and it generates what's interesting about the commitment conversation that we don't pay much attend to. Every promise you make will change your tomorrow.

35:41 Every promise you make will affect your relationships with your kids, with your spouse, with your colleague, with your boss. So this conversation is about someone asks us to do something. We can say yes, we can say no, we can make a counter offer, and that there's a dance there that we don't consciously understand that will help us make better promises rather than what I call sloppy promises, because we do them day in and day out without much awareness of a how important they are if they generate our future, and b how much we can just say yes without even thinking about the consequences of what we're saying yes to.

36:26 Okay, and so as we talk about awareness of this whole thing, I know in you're moving to talk a little bit about meditation, and I think you even have some stuff on your website tell me a little bit about meditation and what your thoughts are on meditation and how important is that or something similar to that to helping people to start to be able to follow these four areas of conversation. So the reason I put it in the book is it's a sister to awareness, or it's a tool for awareness, because with all the all the different techniques and all the different methodologies around meditation and all the sometimes like deep Tibetan Buddhist stuff is lovely, but it's incredibly complex.

37:17 But with all those complexities, when we nail it down, it's like us sitting quietly observing our own thinking, observing what's going on inside this this chamber up here, and and that that exercise of observation is like being the witness to our thinking. And there from being a witness rather than being attached to is similar to what I was talking about earlier. It's a methodology. It's a tool to understand ourselves in a way that without without it, we're an autopilot. Well that makes sense. Oh yeah, And you know, as I meditate, and I try to do it every day, you know, as I meditate, and one thing I've learned as I've rune to different courses and so forth. Is that as we truly meditate, things come up, things come up. And if we look at those things that come up, and particularly if it's emotions of some sort, and then we start to ask the questions you just were sharing with us that, okay, what's the standard here?

38:21 You know why that emotion? And all of a sudden, through that meditation, if we're able to, as you say, step outside of ourselves and be an observer, all of a sudden, we start to discover. And that was going to be kind of my final question here with you is let's take this communication and conversation that we have with other people and let's talk about the conversation and just a short amount of time that we have with themselves and with their own life. It applies to It. Definitely applies. So, you know, meditation give us that observation perspective. We've become a witness of our own thinking, and as a witness we can we can make transform things instead of being an autopilot. And another process that we can do is we all have what in the lang language flophy language world, there's there's our public conversation and then there's our private conversation, and our private conversation is the monkeys in our mind or or or or the committee, you know that's always telling us, you know what's going on.

39:29 And I have an exercise in the book that was actually created by Chris Argis many many years ago, I think at the Harvard Business School. He was way out of his time, and I don't think it was well received then, but now it's pretty pretty pretty cool. You literally document a conversation and you divide a piece of paper in half with the line, and on one side you write a conversation as you were spoken, and on the left side you write what you were thinking and feeling while both parties were talking. And I've done this with hundreds of people and the left side. When people actually do this and they write down their private conversation, there's a fair amount of surprise because we just don't pay attention. That chatter is just there running. It's routine for twenty thirty, forty fifty years, whatever. But when we write it down, we go, oh, my gosh, I had no idea. I was so judgmental because there's curse words, there's like a lot of negative negativity. So when we look at it, we don't. I'm not criticizing the act, and I'm saying the only option we have. If we bury those things, those thoughts, it's not good for our health.

40:38 If we speak them out loud, it's not good for a relationship. So we can process our private conversations and find goodness in them because we have concerns that are legitimate. We have standards that we can share and learn from other people's standards. So it's the processing of our private conversations that frees us from the grip they have that keeps us from being present because the chatter is there. I love that. I love that. Well, guess what we have gone through time again. It's just amazing to me how fast time goes by. So as we close, how do people find your book? Okay, so they can, there's Amazon and other online places.

41:21 Better yet, order it your favorite bookstore. Good for the bookstore, good for me. But it's it's out there and it's alive and well, which is really good, ring to my heart. And then on my website, I think you scroll down a little bit and there's a free PDF of the introduction. So all you have to do is put your email and then you get a PDF of the introduction, and what's your website is? Chuck Wisner dot com, c h U, c k W S and air dot com. Yeah, and I'm a little bit on social media, a little bit on Instagram, a little bit on link in. Not a heavy user, but I'm there.

42:03 Okay, And as we close, what would be a final message you want to share with the audience. These conversational tools take practice. So if you start looking and start observing and start paying attention, look at it non judgmentally. Try to just look at it as like, well, I have a pattern, it's not serving me. Well maybe I didn't adopt that consciously, but I can look at it now non judgmentally and just be kind to yourself. So you have the courage to look deeper, which will change every conversation in every relationship you have. So wonderful, wonderful, Yeah, Jock, thanks so much.

42:43 This has been great, good conversation here. Thank you. I'm glad this. I hope this one works out. Yeah it does, it did, believe me. So anyway, thanks so much, And folks, I hope you got something good out of this, because I sure did. And hopefully hopefully you'll get the book, read the book. I've already read a part of it. It's fantastic. And read the book and hopefully allow it to change your life for the positive. So anyway, this is Doctor Doug thanking you for joining us, hoping you'll join us again soon, saying no mista