The Power of Art Journaling: Navigating Life Transitions with Creativity

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0:44 Thanzel Washington, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you to do the same. Susan, Welcome to the show. Oh thank you for having me. Doug, I'm thrilled to be here. I'm really pleased. This is going to be an interesting topic and I'm excited to really learn about what you're doing and while you're doing it. So forth, I'd love for you to share with the on Age your journey, what brought you to this point and go ahead and take the time to kind of share with your life and how it all came to this point. Sure, well, given my age termed sixty the past year, it's a bit of a winding path. But I professionally, I started off as a broadcast journalist and did that for a number of years. And then, as happens, life takes a veer and our first professions no longer fit us.

1:43 And what happened is, you know, children are having a child and I was anchoring. You know, it's eleven thirty five at night, and you work weekends and news, and that just wasn't compatible with you know, my view. It was one thing to work, but it was another thing not to be around at nights and holidays and to be called out urgently. So really switched careers, took up a sharp turn, moved across the country and started a career in corporate America, where I did a number of things. I initially started in training in human resources, then worked in strategy, did some time overseas as an expad and a business unit in Asia. Came back sort of really to work in HR and fell in love with with coaching, executive coaching, career coaching, business coaching within that and really really enjoyed that. During that time, I took up a hobby quite by accident of art journaling. Now that isn't I have to always pause because that's going to be I'm going.

2:57 To ask you. Well, I'm going to ask you that definition later on. Okay, perfect, I'll just say now, it's not about making art. You know, to get your head initially wrapping around it, think of what most people understand what a written journal is, or you know, keeping a diary. This is using art, crayons, paints, collage in that same way. So I yeah, so it's never about the end product. It's a what I call colorful, visual, right brained way to journal so deeply private. I started that during the last I don't know five plus years of my corporate career, and that also hit during the pandemic, and it really I realized art journaling was such a great way to tap into my inner wisdom to process emotions.

3:55 You know, all that coaching experience I had and all the tools that I was fortunate enough to gain doing that professionally and certifications sort of really taught me to pay attention when you both love something and it's giving you insights into yourself and really guiding you. So the Art Journal helped me to recognize it was time to leave that career. Now, the Art Journal didn't say write a book about me because that's what happened. Let's be clear, it's not like the oracle. Life is not that easy, but it definitely started to show me that it was time for a change. And that was now three years ago, and in that half I ended up as I've continued doing both business coaching meaning executive coaching and career coaching, but I got more into life transition coaching. The Art Journal continued to be such a powerful tool. I started with client to do it and then ended up doing a book about it, which is Art for Your Sanity and online training and now I do workshops because it's so simple and for the right people right where all individual can really be a major unlock in a fun way.

5:13 So when you talk about transitions, okay, what are you talking about there? Yeah, So we all go as humans in this world through a number of life transitions almost every twelve to eighteen months. It can be anything from a career transition. That's one of the easiest for us to get our head around to moving right, a physical change, a relationship change. If you think of my story about when my husband I realized after having my son that that career no longer fit right, becoming a parent or becoming an empty nester, those are what I mean by life transitions. It can also be losing a loved one or becoming a caregiver, empty nest. Right, There's any number of them. But easiest way to think about it is you have ones in your professional life. You have various ones around your relationships, You have them around where you live, You have them around your body and the sort of stages of our body.

6:22 In many cases, what we can or can't do anymore. If we've ever had a diagnosis we need to work through, that's certainly a transition. Okay, how many times as you've done coaching, executive coaching, or individual coaching, have you found that a transition has occurred because they've gone ahead and changed their mindset to the point that they're actually moving in an entirely different direction than what they have before, or at least they want to. Yeah, so in almost every case, in some of it, right, So it's in there are transitions that can happen to us, right, an empty nest, or a diagnosis or caregiving, or you lose a job. Those are ones that in essence happened us.

7:11 But in all the ones that we create, right, the ones that are sort of intrinsic, It is a mindset change. Right. You can get into a little bit of chicken out, but anything that we're really initiating is a recognition that something isn't fitting now. Sometimes fortunately you recognize an old way of thinking is no longer working, and as part of your new way, you start to see these behaviors in this life. The shell you're wearing, you know, you sort of it no longer fits. So anyone, any transition that we really choose, has a mindset component, either at the very beginning or in order to make it, you have to switch your mindset.

7:56 And you know, I'm fascinated by the art journal ad because you're saying and it's really art. Now, I'm someone that cannot draw, as they say, the broadside of a barn. I've never been artistic in that way. I love photography, but never been artistic where I can sit and draw or any of that type of thing. So how do you start? People? And I guess kind of explain what is art journaling exactly, and how do you help people to start that if it's something that they really don't have a tendency to have ever done. So those are the best people for it, I and that was me. So I will go back to how it started and I'll explain why people who don't think they have any artistic ability it's best for And so my story with our journaling starts because I would have described myself and still do the way you are because it's really not about making art that I'm going to show you. It's about play. And so they said it's working full time. And one of my coworkers had and still has a wholeside business as an artist, legitimately talented individual who sells her work. Her goal is to create work people commission or buy. And some of us were saying, what you just said, I can't paint a side of a barn, and she goes, oh, everyone, you know, come over on a Saturday. We'll spend a couple hours. I'll teach you a little you know, teach you some shape.

9:28 So I'm one of about five people go over. Right, it's a little maybe wine and cheese thing. It's a rainy Saturday, and it's two hours and she's explaining the colors, and there's some paints and I'm sort of in the corner, and I make a huge mess. I mean, I'm not patient enough. My paints run together. I create brown, which is very easy. I have found out talking to artists that's just an impatient person, and that fits me. I'm an invasion in general person. But I have a great time and I love this brown splot which I've created. I actually take my little soggy piece of paper home, I hang it on my refrigerator, let it dry. And with all the coaching, what I tell everyone right this is that you got to take your own advice. Is when you do something that you really love, that sparks that like little glimmer of joy or excitement, pay attention because as adults we can go on autopilot with routines or dismiss things. So I started paying attention. And at the time, we still had things in our house like crayons and watercolors, very inexpensive things. So I took out the crans and just started playing with them. I circles, doodles, the sort of things I drew when I was five smiley faces, flowers hearts right, and then fast forward why I love art journaling as a tool for art for

11:01 self discovery and why the people I work with have loved it. As adults, Many times we don't do a lot of things for pure play and pure creative outlet. We may have a hobby, but in that hobby many cases we're trying to get better for trying to improve, and there can be a lot of self judgment there. I advise people, if they're at all curious, to start with the least expensive art supplies they can find, right, try a crown, because it's very hard as an adult to have two crayons in your hand and take yourself seriously to think that you are about to create a masterpiece.

11:43 You come to the page to play is where this whole thing starts. And from that place of play their curiosity right, and you build that practice from there. So it is never about end product. It's all about the process, and in this case with art journaling, staying with really inexpensive fun materials that remind you of what you loved to play with between probably five and eight. Research has shown that by about age eight or nine, a lot of people who don't define themselves as artists or creative have gotten messages that they're not right. They've either looked at someone else's page and felt discouraged. But this is about when you did it for the pure fun and joy, when you weren't judging whatever you loved to doodle.

12:39 So when we talk about art, I mean there's all sorts of different types of art. As I mentioned, I love photography, and yeah, I'm probably guilty of what you were talking about of always wanting to be better at that that I love doing that, and to me that was my and that is my expression of art, although I haven't been able to do it recently. So when you're talking, are you talking specifically about the crowns and the paints and all of that type of thing, or are there other aspects to art that could be involved in that based on your. Experience, So based on my experience, you can use any aspect of art. But the key here is to use it as a written as you would think of a written journal. There are a lot of people who read about the benefits of journaling.

13:31 Yes, rather it's. Gratitude journaling or that, but many times either get hung up. I'll share that I still keep a written journal as well as an art journal. I have found both to be very helpful. So when I talk about art journaling, it's as much the right brain creative place for processing emotions for a little outlet. It's like ten minutes a day for tapping into inner wisdom. It's not it can be anything you want it to be. I want to be very very clear. The way I've been using it with people and the book is as a visual means to help them better understand themselves. Now, you could certainly say through your photography and the way you see the world, it also helps you to understand yourself. So people can art journal if you will, with photography, with images. Part of it is just being really aware of what's going on yourself. But I've used it and that the book is really a tool. It's a creative tool to help you during one of those life transitions. So something's happening in your life. You either want to start a new career or you're moving, or something has changed, and we can overthink during the change and we can get impatient.

14:53 Right. Change has three really big, well studied parts. There's the ending, the great big law messy middle which we all hate. We want to go straight through that messy middle and the new beginning. Art journaling is a really great outlet to help us with the ending, rather we chose the ending or not. There's a lot of processing and letting go of who we were, where we lived, what we did, whatever that looks like. It then really helps in the messy middle where we can feel like will never sort of feel settled again or have that same mastery. So that's how I like, and I've seen the most power for people to use it.

15:38 So how do you work with someone like me who like I say, I'm just I'm you know I And you say you meet a lot of us. You know, I'm not an artist and to sit down. I can barely dry anything, even stick figures. So what is art journaling? Am I just sitting down for five minutes a day and trying to draw out stick figures? Or what is it? Because I know that as you talk about it, you're talking about how it actually helps individuals with self discovery, with mindfulness, mindset, all of those type of things. Yeah, so I think where we would start, if you're curious, right, is I would say, okay, think back to when you were a kid five to eight, and what your art supplies.

16:22 If you had art supplies like glue stick, magazine pictures or collage, crayons, watercolors, which of those three would you choose? Probably watercolors, but I didn't have those as a kid. Okay, that's okay. We can still find you some inexpensive water colors. They're in all the kids stores. So we'll find you some couple couple dollars and we'll start you there. If that's a pealing, So the very first exercise, if you're curious, is get you a blank piece of paper or in a little book, and I'd say, choose two colors. Just three minutes, and I want you just to fill this page with colors three minutes is all, and you're just putting color on the page, and see what happens.

17:11 So you start super simpling. You're just getting some color on the page. And then we stop, and then the question of how'd you feel? What was that experience? Now you may say it was messy, it was wet, or it was freeing. It was fun to see it, right, And that's where we start to get into how did it make you feel? If it wasn't all fun. If you think of my story about sort of I've created this brown blob that was actually fun because there was some surprise, there was play. I didn't have any expectation, so depending and then you could let it draw on or dry and ask the questions like how did it make you feel? Would your body feel like during that?

17:59 So that's where some of the initial exploration. So you don't need to actually draw anything. A lot of people like Kollagh, we do in the workshops because water paint water colors take a little bit of time to dry a lot with just two crayons, so it really can just be scribbling or making a mess. But you're processing. You're thinking about why did I choose those two colors? They're just my favorite they remind me of a happy memory. Or I felt frustrated and so I wanted that dark purple. Right, I feel that this is silly, So your your sort of pain, attention to why you're making those choices. That's where it becomes. If you will a little bit on the therapeutic, all right.

18:48 And if I were doing it with crawons, let's say, and I'm going to I don't really like crowns, and I don't I would rather use water colors. What does that? What does that tell you about me? What does that tell me about me? As far as starting to get that self discovery going. On, Well, I think i'd ask you a question. So I love water colors too, And that's one of my go tos is just filling journal sized pages with colors. I can tell you what I love, and you tell me if it's why you think you might love water colors. I have found for me, what looks a certain way on the page at the moment is totally different when.

19:31 It dries, and there's a bit of surprise to me and delight, and it reminds me it's an interesting psychological reminder that what we experience in the moment is really not any. More reality a day later or ten minutes later, right, because the colors have softened and dried. That's actually why I'm a pretty big fan of water colors. But what about you, because you've a few times gone to them. Well, you know what I I mean. As I was visualizing in my mind while we were chatting and you were saying water colors, I was just visualizing taking a couple of really great bright colors and drawing kind of wide open lines coming up and kind of curving and bringing the next one into it. So I'm just kind of blending them together. Whereas if I look at crayons, just a little line with the crown, I can't stand that.

20:24 So that's what I was doing, is I was just looking at more of an expansive type of drawing from the standpoint of just drawing some lines and so forth, and curves, not lines, but more curves and wide curves. Yeah. So I love that. And when you talk about the lines and curves, because I'm watching you, we've got the magic of zoom. You're smiling, you seem light and I can see a picture right above your head with like a line and a curve. So there's there's it's an interesting symbol for you. So I might ask one you lightened up and it was appeeling. You started smiling immediately, So that's a little bit where I think you dig into it. It's like, what is it about that? The motion, the shape? Is it the expansiveness? Is it the blend?

21:19 I'm curious and you don't have to answer, but I would ask that the question is in your life. As I repeat that back to you. Where does that resonate how how do you view your life as expansive, as blended or is that something you're aspiring to versus currently have. Yeah, and I think for me, I mean I don't mind sharing. I think for me it would be the expansiveness. I like that word. It would be just the expansiveness of things. Yeah. Well, I love that you shared. Thank you. I was you know, I hate to surprise put you on the spot, but that's a little bit where you where your person starts to go. So, say your working through a transition and a lot of your images and as you describe them to mean you draw them and what you're wanting to create are about expansion or blending. You start to say, but I don't know what that looks many cases, I don't know what that looks like. I know my current career or where I'm living feels constricted. Right, So this is during a lot of transition. So then we start to play with images, right, this is where people could collause or what's the next shape or symbol or color.

22:30 So that's a little bit how we play with it is and that's why it's all process, not perfection or not end creation because we all go different places. Plus, I thought it was so interesting. And tell me if you don't want to go there that you didn't like how restricting a crayon felt to you, because other people will will love what you could do. Right, there was something about the I don't know density the line, and that's very interesting. Yeah, and and and again you know, and as we're talking about expansive, I'm a big fan and I talk a lot about new adventures, that life is an adventure and we always need to find new adventures in our lives.

23:14 And so I think that's where the expansive idea comes in. Uh And yeah, I mean you haven't thought about the restriction of the of the crayon, but yeah, I don't like restrictions. Yeah, well so and just it's interesting just in those few moments because one of the thing on the online training and one on one coach, this is a little harder to do in a group as you start to get some values work. So think of your your life at this point, your your podcast, what you're doing, it is about expansion possibility. So you see how that visual aspect is just mirroring a value, I mean, a really base core foundational piece of who you are right now.

23:58 Well, and you know, you bring up something interesting that comes to my mind. And I've talked about this a lot with other folks on the podcast, is that you know, we all have the ability to some degree for that self development. You know, we can be reading, we can be doing the meditating, we can go to different workshops and so forth, and that type of thing. But a lot of times, ultimately it boils down to having a coach, having someone there to help you. And you know, for me, I've done that periodically throughout my life. And as you talk about this, I'm thinking, Okay, I could read your book, but is the book going to really be the coach or is that going to just be the instigation for me to find you online so that you can help me and coach me through this because not many people do it.

24:51 Yeah. You know what I have found since the book has come out is it probably depends on how a person already views certain creative things. There are some people can read the book and start immediately. I have a free pdf on the website. They can download it and if they're all ready sort of playing in that space, just run with it. Others, to your point, really benefit from a workshop or online training or the coaching. So I think one of the things that's really nice, and it can be with even a trusted friend, is reflection and someone mirroring back what you're looking for. So in a time of deep transition, I always think a coach is a really helpful thing, right, whoever that is, I've used them, You've used them, just because we can get going in our head. What I have seen the art journal do for people, and things hit differently right for different people, is over time really help people better understand their emotions. They may take to an art turtle page feeling very frustrated or angry. They may realize after scribbling all over the page or using dark colored water colors, whatever it is, slashing away, it's a good safe place to process that emotion at the time, and it holds it very quickly and helps us get rid of it

26:24 or process it then you can go back. So I think there's some value just in that, and I think people can read the book or play with it and get that for themselves. So it really depends on what a person's working through. Rather they want more coaching or doing online. Course well, And it's interesting because you talk about colors and colors reflecting emotion, and do you find that that's a reasonably accurate thing as you've worked with people, so you know all these I'm more in a dark blue shirt right now, But if I'm putting out black, brown and so forth versus the yellows and the reds and the oranges and that, do you find that that really is reflective of our emotions at that point in time?

27:11 It is? But with the question, so I say, if a person's at all curious, you need to bring sense of play and real curiosity, Like if you want to give this a try to it. Because we all have different color codes, like even culturally, so red, let's just chuse red. Red can be love, Red can be you know, holidays. Red can also be anger, passion. Blue, blue can be tranquill, blue can be depressed. So you are and I try and work with people on this and the course your own best color decoder of what it symbolizes to you. For some people, browns may feel very earthy and grounded.

27:52 For other it's muddy and depressing and without light. Right, So there's a real individual aspect. And I would say, if you ever take to water coloring or doing an art journal, crayons, collaging in a moment, pay attention to how you're feeling. If you're angry, I know I tend to choose blacks, grays, purples, sometimes some red for me, those colors if I'm feeling really angry or frustrated, symbolize it. It's so interesting because when they dry in many cases or you look at them afterwards, they can be quite mellow.

28:36 They don't have that same power, which is why I sort of laugh when we use ourselves like we know and I've drawn little screaming faces what we're feeling at the moment. You look back even a few hours, but certainly a few days or a few weeks, and it does give you a sense of real self compassion, and it helps us remember that our emotions, we're not our emotions. Our emotions are just like momentary visitors that we can process and move on from. So I also really like it for that, and people can absolutely do that without a coach. You can do that right now after listening. Well, so here's what comes to my mind. Have you, as you've worked with different clients, have you actually observed some major changes take place in their lives from a standpoint of mindfulness and habits and all of those types of things. I mean, can you see someone go from A to B and go Wow, that is amazing what they've been able to accomplish through the art journaling.

29:39 Yeah, I think I have one of the biggest changes I have seen, and I've seen it now in a handful of clients is a much better understanding of strong emotion when they're coming through them right, irritation. Three of the five people I'm thinking of or processing some work frustrations with this, like you know something that triggers them every time, and it's the same thing. And they would scribble, use images, do that to process and what each one recognized it in a different way. It was less about the other person and more about their fear of themselves looking bad, their need for perfection, their need for control.

30:35 Right. And it was really interesting because you could, as a coach say to them, you know, what's this about? You could ask them that question. It was only through some of the images that I think some of the if you will fear the current people, I'm thinking of our three women, I'll tell you about the other two. You get a lot of that imposter syndrome. And so what starts as like frustration is they played with the images, started to uncover a little bit of am I good enough? Is this about me? And when it happened more visually and we worked through it, it was a much bigger release because then when the whoever it is right, we all have the perpetrator the challenger out there when it would occur again, instead of trying all these ways to parry the person, what would work is some affirmations and recognizing I'm successful, this is not about my competency my job.

31:42 And it really lessened that emotion in that case, so you asked there. The other it was interesting is like five different people popped up that they sort of split and I won't worry with that. The other two examples are really about the need for a change to come right. It was I talked earlier I used the analogy of a shell, but one of the people was using a shell that was too small, right if you think of like sea creatures when you've outgrow and you just needed a new shell. And the images that kept choosing they were doing a lot of collage and shells are just circular.

32:23 It was like wanting to expand you know, if you think of almost where you started, it's like, I need to get out of this confine. So those are a couple of examples where imagery and this weren't These weren't long sessions. These are not years, not even I mean within the case of a month or two of doing it, but they were all working through sort of a repeated sense of Rather it was frustration or stuckness. Well, and you know you talk about imposture syndrome, and I appreciate that. You know, the definition you gave is the well known one. I've come up with another definition a couple of times, and that's when you're living someone else's life. Oh, absolutely, living the life of your family, your parents, you know what all these expectations are. What have you found when we look at that, and also when we look at the fact that in that case, most of them are not really recognizing or living their true values. And subconsciously they don't even they don't know why they're unhappy or frustrated or angry. But yet if you get to it, you know the values that are genuine values for them, they're not living them, they're not really being who they are. Have you found with your experience with working with people through the art journaling, that you've been able to help people to discover their true values and to actually discover that, you know what, this is not the life that is truly me.

33:53 Yeah, So thank you for that definition, because you're absolutely right. I worked with so many people, even back when I was in a corporation and I was doing it was so sad. Sometimes I would be doing executive coaching with an up and coming female in finance. This was a number of years ago, and she was trying to get to the next level and we're talking about how to unbreak and we're talking about values, and what comes out is, you know, her dad always wanted her go into something safe. She would have loved to have been an animator for Disney and the only reason she'd built an amazing career, but was struggling to get to that next level. And all answer outcomes with art churling. But what you said is so common that we end up living the life.

34:42 We turn around and we are living a life that through society, our family, how we grew up, we thought we were supposed to live and we don't even know because until later in life that it doesn't fit us, and so art journaling can be hugely powerful, as can any form of counseling, meditation. Right when we end up living a life that is not true to our values, and so many people end up there and at different points, I think we all experience aspects of that and it's part of growth. And so it's okay, yes, using art journaling coaching to really get clear on what are your values and then to work through the fear, because it can be so paralyzing. In the navigating transitions work I do we talk about this triple threat of like community expectations, family sort of expectations, and then like what you've sought and how you break free of that and really challenge you know, what you want versus how everyone sees you.

35:51 So are in the images of breaking out of shells, of building a foundation, if you will, based on your values, right, what do you value expression? And part of it is how does that value show up for you? Like I could say authenticity and you could say authenticity, but it could look different to each of us, right, or integrity, And so it's important to put either words or images with that. You know, I'll keep going back to your first answer, about what you would watercolor, right, blended arches, things that go to exxpansion. That's mean that sounds like a person who wants to look at a lot of possibilities, not shut things down, be open minded, right, right, But that could show up differently for different people.

36:48 Well, and you know, what I find is really interesting is that you know, here's a methodology that you have developed that's worked so well for you, and that you've been able to reach people who have somehow connected with that perspective and that approach and you've been able to help them. And what I find interesting in why I'm doing what I'm doing with all the different people that I talk to is because everybody has a slightly different approach. And what I find is for you know, I'm starting to play golf again, and I'm not a good golfer, right, and so I'm watching YouTube and all these things and all these different people talking about do it this way, do it that way, And so I've been trying and practicing and so forth, and finally I watched the video that was like, you got to be kidding me. That is so not how people would tell me to do it.

37:39 And I went to the range the other day, and sure enough, the way I was holding the club and how I was doing the whole thing, it all of a sudden started working for me, and I thought to myself, you know, it's so true that as individuals, we need to find that methodology, that approach that resonates with us, connext with us. And I love the fact that different people have come up with different approaches and been able to find people who that resonates with so that you can help them. And that's exactly what you're doing. Yeah, I love the way you describe that. Gosh, that golf makes me want to take up golf. So I could come up with that analogy because it's such a good example in that sometimes it's just a tweak, a different way of explaining it, a different process that fits us. Right.

38:34 We are each so unique, but we're you know, we're tied with a common desire to be happy, right, quite honestly. But the way we hear things, the way we interpret things, what speaks to us is so deeply individual. And you know, that's one of things I love to tell people. It's like, if you're all intrigued, try it. If it's not for you, you know, no real money loss, no real time time loss. This is not what I love about art journaling. Is it low barrier to entry, and so if it's doesn't spark any joy or curiosity in you don't worry about right.

39:15 This is not a shot. This is a for the people that works for it is freeing and liberating and terrific. For someone that doesn't speak to it just doesn't speak to and you can move on with no guilt. It's not like, oh, I bought all this expensive exercise equipment and that found out was me. No, it's like you bought, you know, a couple dollars thing of watercolors or a few crayons. It's very low barrier, and I think that's really important because you want to start with a lot of playing curiosity. Oh amen to that. Well, if if you were to share with the audience just a very short message of what you would want to gain, have them gained from this podcast today? What would that be?

40:02 Okay? Well, I think from today's podcast it was a great conversation. I love your questions. It really is. If it has sparked any curiosity, just give it a try, don't overcomplicate it, just play with it. Start playful, ask yourself a few questions, think about how it feels, have some fun ten minutes, and I think allowing yourself that little bit of play and curiosity is really important. And I don't think we have we take enough time in our day to do a little bit of play.

40:43 And that's specifically with the art. Yeah, very yeah, very specifically with that. But I mean I would even challenge you if the whole time you're listening to this, you're thinking, yeah, I want to go bang on some drums, and you should go bang on some drums, because that would be a a glimmer. So not that I want to take people away of it, but I don't think we should ignore our voices when we get a little excited about doing something, because to me, that's the true definition of expansion is to follow that voice when you get a little bit of that joy glimmer. Yeah, I love it. So, so how do people find you? And how do they find your book? And reiterate again the name of your book so the audience knows is.

41:25 It's art for your sanity And you can find any where you buy books. My website's the easiest way to find me. And it's just Susan dash Hensley dot com and on it there's like a starter. There's the free guide how to get started. You could pdf, you know it's pdf. You download books there, video online course, that's all there. Fantastic. Well Susan, thanks, oh, thank you. It's been a fun conversation. Yeah, I've baoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you. And yeah, you do have my curiosity up a little bit as I start thinking of out watercolor. Perfect. Give it a try when you have a few minutes, maybe one day after golf.

42:07 Well I have to try that. And if I don't like it, I'll just send it off to my grandkids exactly. They would love it. All right. Hey, well, folks, thanks for listening. And again, Susan, thanks so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. Thank you, it's been great you betting folks, hope you join us again soon. This is a doctor Doug saying no mistay