Bravery is Built, Not Born

0:01 This program is designed to provide general information with regards to the subject matters covered. This information is given with the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas. At the end of the day, it's not about what you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up, who you've made better. It's about what you've given back Thanzel Washington, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you to do the same.

0:54 Jill, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. Hey, this is real, rare, great topic. It's for me. It just really struck me hard when I saw that this is what you talked about, because I've been considering this particular topic and relationship to helping people to understand how to really become their better selves. And we'll get into that. But what I'd love for you to do is to kind of share with the audience your journey. Who are you, what is your past, and how did you come to this point in time where you're talking about bravery. Yeah. Sure, So I started my life journey in the Midwest in Minnesota, and then my first career was blowing things up in the Marine Corps. I was a United States Marine.

1:46 I was a combat Engineer officer, and then I moved from being someone who was responsible for marines that would blow things up to then I started selling drugs, the legal kind right pharmaceutical industry. I went into Corporate America. Fell in love with science and the industry of helping people, so I went into that industry. So I worked in Corporate America for thirteen years, and then I realized how much I valued so much of the personal development and the leadership development. I realized that just because I was a United States Marine Corps officer doesn't mean I was a great leader yet, and I learned so much about how to look at myself and become a better person, how to be a better leader. And so I ended up moving into that space doing leadership development inside of a Fortune one hundred company and then that was my jumping off point and I started my own company. It had such an impact on me as a leader as a person. I really loved just helping others become their best self. So I've had my company for now ten years, and a few years ago, just because I love learning and growing, I decided to go back to school and study and I decided to study the science of happiness and well being or positive psychology, which I feel like a lot of people are talking about the science of happiness, And what I ended up researching and really honing in

3:19 on as I did my research for my capstone project was really what we're talking about today, which is how do people how do you help people really become their best selves, accomplish the meaningful things they want in life, and what really holds them back? And that led me to realizing that sometimes fear like people really want to do things, they want to accomplish things, but they don't do it, and what's the reason they let fear hold them back? So I was become obsessed and said, how do I help people overcome that fear? Because if you don't overcome that fear and you stay, you stay in this comfort zone. Right, then you live a life of regret, and then you don't see how great like life can be.

4:04 So that's what landed me where I am today now, I write, I speak, I research the science of bravery. Oh I love that, and you know it's so true. I'm glad you brought up fear because I was hoping you would talk about that, because what I have found is that fear, as you say, it stops so many people in so many ways. You know, I've interviewed a lot of people who talk about how they're continually getting into these bad relationships and they don't get out of them, and they keep getting attracted to the same time and so forth. And as I've looked at that, and as we've talked about that, I think one of the key elements is the fear of change, the fear of something, the fear of the unknown versus being able to accept I mean, comfortable with the known, creates such a such a dichotomy because then they're not able to get out, as you say, and I actually do what they want to do. And I'm loving the pictures. It's just behind you is that Buddha.

5:09 There is Buddha. And then if you look around my office I have everything's very intentional. There let me see way down, I'm trying to get my fingers right here. But right up. There that is Epictetus, right stoke philosopher. That's Marcus Aurelius right there. So yeah, I have a lot of a lot of different inspiring figures that really influence my work and create the environment to call forth my best work. So yeah, and then. Isn't it interesting those philosophies? And I found as I've studied many of them that I really look at what are the similarities, and there's so many similarities between that and the whole goal is to help people not to suffer.

5:52 And that's one of Buddha's mad because this is not to suffer. And yet here you have and here we're talking about how people areeing that suffering in their lives because of fear, because of the inability to move forward. So let's talk about that a bit. When you talk about the science of bravery, what would you say that. Is, well, it's looking at what are the things that we know with the scientific evidence to back it up on how we can build bravery so that people can step forward in the presence of fear, because look at what is bravery? I get that question. Then what is bravery and what is it not? So bravery is defined as not eliminating fear. It's not becoming fearless, it's not it's not waiting until you're perfectly ready in confidence. So bravery is taking steps forward in the presence of fear.

6:54 So that's the first thing that people need to understand. I think that's why people don't take steps forward, keep waiting until they're not scared anymore. Well, it's not gonna happen if you're gonna wait until you're ready, if you're gonna wait until there's no fear, then you're probably never gonna take a step forward, and that's why they get stuck. Right. So, so that's what bravery is. And then you add the science of bravery. You know, let's look at the scientific rigor behind. What are things that people can do to build bravery? And what I'm excited to share with the world is there's things that anyone can do to build their bravery. And I use an analogy of it's like a muscle. You know, if you want to build a bicep and you have you don't have very strong muscles.

7:39 You're gonna go to the gym and you're going to keep working out that muscle until it gets stronger. Well, what we know about bravery, there's things that you can do, think of exercises for your bravery muscle, for your brain that can help you build that capacity for bravery so you can take those courageous, courageous actions. So so I call it the science of bravery because I think there's a lot of people that are just kind of motivational and be like, just go out there and be brave and rah rah, right, you know, which I appreciate their passion and they're trying to help people. But I feel like I have a responsibility because like I'm a nerd, Like I'm not going to just tell you what I think you should do to be brave. I got to tell you the things that I know with scientific certainty that if you do these things, it will lead to you being braver and then stepping forward toward what you want and that's going to lead to your greatest life.

8:32 So yeah, and you know, the question that I have had oftentimes is, in fact, I was talking to someone that I interviewed just last week, and I asked, you know, she's doing a lot of astrology and that kind of stuff, and I said, so are you doing life coaching? And her comment was I was, but I quit because people never were able to get aware of what the issues were. And so as you talk about bravery, and you're talking about you know, as you were in the Marines and you were with you know, obviously observing fighting going on and that type of thing, and also now in the corporate world where what you're doing, how many times do you find that they're not even aware of the issues that they need to be brave about.

9:22 Yeah, I mean first is awareness. Yeah, I think that I think what people are unaware of. I think people mistakenly think that the path to happiness and well being is staying comfortable. As you use the word suffering earlier. Right, I don't want to suffer, so I should just stay comfortable and I shouldn't take any risks because isn't that what will bring me happiness? But I need to tell everyone the truth, right, and the truth is choosing the easy path. Staying comfortable all the time is the to suffering. Right, So that awareness comes about when you when you help people understand that when you step into challenges, when you step toward things that you're scared of, those are the things that are going to bring you the greatest levels of happiness and well being and fulfillment. But it seems kind of counterintuitive, and and Doug, especially right now, I think that our world has gotten a little too soft.

10:29 We're getting a little too soft trying to take away all like, let's take away stress, let's take away discomfort, if there's any adversity, let's take it away. It's just not it's not realistic. I mean, I think the younger generation. I can say this because I've got two teenage daughters. I think there's just a culture of just let me have more me days and and and you know, I just I want I want my me day. I want things to be easy. If you have a me day, a self careday six out of seven days, you're just being lazy and you just don't want to get uncomfortable. If you have a self care of me day once a week, then it's a good rest to be able to get back to doing the hard thing. So I think in general, the pendulum is swung too far. And yes, you know, I believe that sometimes people can encounter too much stress and diversity, and they do need to get a little bit of a rest. But just in general, our world is getting too soft, and I guess I'm on a mission to help people understand that they are stronger than they think, and if they try to step into things that are hard and uncomfortable, that will actually lead to a more comfortable, better life.

11:44 Well, and you know, you talked about the culture of softness, and I totally agree with you on that, but also what I observe is a culture of anger. And you know, it's it's fascinating. I've got a good friend that all of a sudden, I'm starting to see a bunch of posts that are just there's a sense of anger in each of those posts, and particularly with all the changes that have taken place politically and so forth, all of a sudden, here's all these posts going on about anger, anger, anger. And it was interesting because I looked at that and I thought, you know, what, we tend to allow ourselves to be angry. And my experience is is if you look at that, that anger, if you really try to analyze that, that goes back deeper than just what's happening today.

12:30 It goes back into that childhood, It goes back into whatever experiences so that when a trigger occurs, that anger arises. And I think so many people are not willing to really look at that. So how do you help people as you're working with people, particularly the leadership that you do with the leadership training, how do you help a leader that's struggling to really be willing? Is the bravery to be looking at introspectively what's really going on in my life, what's causing this type of behavior and this type of emotion which then reflects in my behavior.

13:11 Well, I think when people look in the mirror and have to be honest and a little bit vulnerable, that's the ultimate form of bravery. Right. It's very easy to point the fingers of blame on why things are not going well, but we've got to take some ownership there. You to talk about people being angry, like, you know, I spend a lot of time teaching leaders about emotional intelligence, right, just teaching them that I understand that things happen and you have these emotional responses, but these things are going to continue happening. The world is is there's always going to be stressed, There's going to be adversity things that are happening, but you have the choice on how to how you let that impact you. Right, So, emotional intelligence, things happen, You've got the triggers, but how you respond to those triggers ultimately impacts your life the life of the people that you lead. So are you just going to become a victim and allow events happening in the world just dictate your mood and control you or are you going to decide that You're going to decide how to respond in the best way to best serve you, the team that you lead, and your family. So, like I say, look in the mirror, right, what is the impact of you getting angry and just and then letting that angry eat you up? And is that really what you want? So I think a lot of the work that I do is I want people to really look in the mirror and go, what is it that you

14:44 really want in life? What is the impact that you want to have in life? And what's holding you back from being able to accomplish it? And usually fear is that root cause? Well, and you know you're working with the corporate America. But what I have found and I say, but and what I have about is that each one of us in our lives needs to be that individual leader. And so what you talk about, in my opinion, is so important just for individuals to understand that, you know, what, their lives are dictated by their own personal leadership, and so everything that you're talking about is it is so true and applies to that. Now, I know you talk about three pillars of bravery, and I'd love for you to talk about that a little bit more and we'll get into that discussion.

15:38 Yeah. Well, as I just want to add onto what you're saying, which is a great link into the three pillars, which sometimes the hardest person to lead is to lead yourself. So the three pillars that I talk about I commonly reference as self leadership. Right, so we've got to be great self leaders right first before we can lead others. So you know this, these three pillars that would be going over with you, this is really for an individual to be able to apply the way I'm gonna explain it. But then the job of the leaders is how do you develop your team employees that are self leaders. If you can have a team of self leaders that have these three pillars, they're doing it consistently, then you're going to be the best leader ever. But let's start like thinking of the individual. So in order for someone to build this capacity for bravery, there's really three different dimensions of things that you know, exercises that we can do to build the skill, and they're all interconnected. So if you start moving on one, it ends up impacting another dimension.

16:37 So they're all like interconnected. So there's brave mindset, there's brave actions, and there's brave relationships. And when you leverage all three together, it absolutely creates this upward spiral and helps you achieve those things that you've always wanted that you're fearful of. So brave mindset is really believing that you can achieve hard things. It's believing that with hard work and effort you'll be able to develop that new skill, that you'll be able to accomplish that goal. So a lot of the research that's under my brave mindset comes from Carol Dweck, who's known for her growth mindset using the power of yet. Like if I say I have this goal that I want to run a five k race, and I say to myself, right, I'm not a runner.

17:28 What am I kidding me, I could never do that. I'm not a runner. You just think of like add that power of yet, I'm not a runner yet, or I could not run a five k yet. So if you use that word yet, what it does it unlocks our perception of thinking, like our skills and abilities are not fixed. With hard work and effort, I can get there. So brave mindset is and there's four different things that I teach there and I don't need to go into all of them, but it's all these different really cognitive skills of believing that it's possible. Imagine if someone doesn't believe it's ever possible to do something really hard, Well, if you don't believe it's possible, then you're not going to take action. So we got to start working on the mindset first.

18:15 And actually I want you to talk about those four elements. You don't have to go into it in depth, but I'll just kind of list them. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. So one is what I talked about in terms of growth mindset, so believing that it's possible using the power of yet. The second thing is that stress is enhancing mindset coming from Aliah Crumb Kelly McGonagall, where they have done a lot of research on your mindset on stress or challenges is predictive of your response to stress. So it's really changing people's mindset instead of thinking like, oh, stress and adversity or challenges are horrible, it's shifting it to challenges our opportunities for me to grow skills and get stronger. When I experience stress, this is my body responding in a way to help me perform at my best. Right, I can feel my heart pumping, I can feel breathing.

19:11 This is my body preparing me to do my best, so that stress is enhancing mindset. Third is really all around positive emotions Barbara Frederickson's work. Also Marty Seligman, father of positive psychology, on his Learned Optimism, it's teaching people that you do not have to be victim victims of your emotions back to emotional intelligence. Instead, we can acknowledge the emotions that we feel right, but then we can actually generate the emotions that are gonna best serve us, the teams that we lead, or the people in our lives. So it's all the research there on generating positive emotions.

19:52 And then finally the fourth thing and brave mindset is for us to really take control of our self talk. You know, many of us have this little internal voice. Actually we all do. We all have this internal chatter of things that we tell ourselves. And many times that internal chatter is this this voice that says, you can't do it, you suck, you're a loser, You're never going to be able to do this. So sometimes we have this little voice in our head that is saying always negative, like pessimistic things. And this goes back to teaching people that you have the power to be able to refute those things and change that constant dialogue in your head because those words you keep hearing do have an impact on your performance. So there's ways that we can try to change that internal dialogue to better service. So those are the four practical strategies that I teach and break.

20:47 Will and I love that last one because you know, we talk so much about mindset, and one thing we don't talk about as much some do is the fact that here's these neural pathways that have been developed. It's habitual. So as you talk about I'm not good enough, all of these imprints that we developed as young children or whenever, it's habitual because it's been impregnated into our mind along those neuropathways, and so the ability as you were talking about, to be able to change those and science tells us now that you can literally take a neural pathway, move it to the side, and create a new one which is much more positive.

21:31 Yeah, and this goes back to my analogy of building a muscle, Like the first time you go into the gym and try to lift some really heavy dumbbells, like, it's going to be hard and you're going to be sore. So as you start working on building your bravery and start doing some of these exercises or in the academic word, they call them interventions, but it's just exer kind of brain exercises. In practice, it's going to be hard in the beginning because you don't really have that part of your brain isn't as strong, and you don't have as many neuropathways. But you do the work and then just like your muscle goes, oh god, that was a hard workout. I better make that muscle stronger, our brain does the same thing. So our neuroplasticity, like it'll start building and then it gets This is the thing, is it gets easier over time. Right, we get cortical thickening. So like our brains are like in a way. I mean, they're not muscles, but I love the analogy because you know, parts of our brain can literally get thicker when we work them out. And then, as you talked about neuropathways, we're going to start creating many more new neural pathways to light up that part of our brain. So we've got more super highways going to that part of our brain and that part of our brain, and so it does.

22:38 It actually gets easier over time. And that's when I say you're developing this capacity for bravery. It's hard in the beginning, but once you start getting some momentum, it gets easier over time. So are you using affirmations to help people use affirmations to use meditation? I know one thing that I do is as I'm meditating, I like the concept of very specific meditative quote affirmations that I will say out loud as I'm doing my walking meditation to literally, you know, be able to start to change those areas that I find I struggle with. And if I'm doing that constantly, constantly, that starts to change that neural pathway. What's your approach on that how to help people to kind of do.

23:24 That, you know, I think there's a lot of different ways we can try to help people change that internal dialogue. One of the ones that I learned when when I was when I was at U Penn earning my master's in positive psychology, I was sitting in a class and one of my professors was doctor Karen Revick, and she told me a way to change our internal dialogue. And for me, it absolutely worked, and I found it's been really really practical for my audiences especially, I've got to I got to admit something to sometimes if things feel a little too soft and a little too woo woo, I kind of like roll my eyes or in my audience when I go to Corporate America and I've got all of these business people, like sometimes what I teach them, I've got to make sure just it makes sense to them where they're going to do it. Where if I start talking about we're going to start meditating, and we're going to start with affirmations, like I might lose them right there right exactly now. So So I when I was doing my research too, I'm like, what are the what are some of these things I can teach people to do that that almost everyone it would be willing to do. And I have this test, like if my husband would do it, then anyone will do it because he's the one that will roll his eyes. So it's like, do will it pass like my husband's test. So what she recommended is she says, you know when you're when

24:54 you're listening to that in your dialogue, she goes, I just want you to listen to it, and when you realize, like, is that really help helping me? And if the voice in your eye is not helping you, you got to recognize it and say, huh, like let's change this. Let's change it. So first of all is awareness, awareness of like listen to that internal voice and if it's not helping you, let's decide to do something about it. So I love that in terms of awareness, and then her strategy that she taught in classes, she goes, I want you to imagine that that exact same thing that you're telling yourself in your head, you just heard someone you care about say out loud about themselves. Maybe it's your child, maybe it's your best friend, it's someone that you care about deeply. You've just heard him say those horrible things that you said in your own like I can't do it, I'm not good en not whatever those things are. And then she says, what would you say to that loved one?

25:42 What's the truthful thing that you would say to that you know? And she calls it, what is the truth that you want to try to tell them? And if it was one of my teenage daughters, I would say, that is absolutely not true. You do have the ability. It's going to take some time and effort, but you are you are great, you are capable. You can do it. So those affirmations I sneak them in there. I sneak them in there, but I do it with Karen Riiviick's you know, her strategy here is if you just think about how do you overcome it? Recognize when you're saying something to yourself that isn't helping you, and then imagine what you would say to somebody else that you care about, how would you help them change their thinking? And you apply that to yourself. Be that person that helps with your own internal dialogue. So when you kind of do this, when you detach yourself from the thoughts and say, what would an outside person that cares about me, say to me.

26:34 It helps people come up with that really easily and they think it's it makes sense and it's not too wu wu where most people actually do that. So that's one of the primary strategies I uset. I just sneak it in. There well, and it reminds me. As I went back to business school and got really into human behavior, one of the things that they talked about is step outside of yourself. And you know, so when you're talking about awordeness, step outside of yourself and observe what's going on. But then I love what you say there also step outside of yourself and start to talk to yourself. And I love that approach. I think that's brilliant. Yeah, and it's just simple. It's just it's a simple way of doing it.

27:15 Yeah, it really is. So there's the brave mindset. Now let's talk about the brave action all right. Well, the reason why it's so important to go to these other two dimensions of bravery is there I think a lot of people out there that there their dreamers. They set goals, they believe they can do anything, but then they don't take a step forward. So so brave action is you know, the brave mindset opens up the door for possibility, but brave action is stepping through that door. So brave action are what are some of the evidence based practices that help people take that step through the door. So so one of them that I teach my clients so we can go back to my like my strategies.

27:58 One is set a tangible goal. So once you set that tangible goal of what is it that you want to accomplish, you've got to make sure that it's both meaningful, right, so it matters, it really matters to you intrinsically. It's got to be something that's important to you, and it also has to be challenging. It's got to get you out of your comfort zone. And then it's also got to be specific. Due to Lock and Latham's research on you know, goal setting theory, So if you believe that you can do hard things and you kind of have a wish, then we got to get to the work of saying, let's set that tangible goal and let's make sure that's written down right. And then the next step after you develop that goal is I use the analogy of a ladder, and I think it's been used. I don't.

28:39 I don't know who to give credit to for the ladder analogy. I certainly didn't come up with it. But if if you think of your goal as the top rung to this ladder, right, and then of course your ladder is leaning against the thing that's very meaningful to you. So think of that analogy. Now you need to come up with what are the what are the rungs to the ladder that will lead you to the top. So breaking down how to accomplish the goal in those achievable steps makes you feel more comfortable to take that step. So it's developing those implementation intentions in the literature, but you still can't stop there. So one of the keys to being able to achieve your goal, and this is coming from someone who's an expert in positive psychology, is thinking about what will get in your way and what will go wrong. This is doctor Gabrielle Uttengen's research where she talks about if you really want to achieve something that's important to you, you need to anticipate the adversity the challenges, both externally and many times internally, and then develop contingency plans on what you're going to do if that happens. Imagine I set a goal I want to go to the gym each day. That's those are my little steps. It's really thinking about what might get in my way of getting to the gym. Ternal challenges would be like there's a blizzard, there's no way I can get to the gym, or maybe my car battery doesn't work.

30:07 But most of the times it's not those external things, you know. It usually is it's us and you know. And so she really has you go through and identify the things that may get in your way from taking action, and then she has you do contingency planning. So I love her work, which is absolutely brilliant. So you actually want to think about what may get in your way and develop a ingency plan so that way, when it happens, you just go right into action. You've got your ntingency plan. Or when something goes wrong, instead of like the sky is falling, like you know what, this isn't working and I'm just going to quit, you're ready, you psychologically like ready when there's a challenge, because if you're setting a challenging goal, there are going to be bumps in the road.

30:51 So when a bump in the road, happens. You're not going to just go in the corner and cry and say it didn't work. You're going to be able to overcome it. Well, I love that, And you know, when when I was working with small businesses, I never got into the corporate area. But I love your ladder analogy and because what I would do and using that analogy, I'd say, Okay, what's your goal? What's your dream? Now, here's the top wrong, this is what you're achieving. Let's go to the wrong right before that? What would have to happen here for you to achieve that? And then okay, if you have done that, what do you need to do here on this rung in order to achieve that? And then you start working backwards and all of a sudden, that's where the awareness of oh my goodness, I've got to start.

31:35 Right here, we got to start right here. And then but they at least see like they see the steps and that first step is something they think they can do. And then the last part of brave action gets to ruthless planning, prioritization, and focus. We are naturally wired many times to procrastinate. Are you procrastinator? I'm a procrastinator? If I don't. So if we've got a big project or a goal and we know that we've got to get things done, we wake up in the morning and usually the first thing that we do is not the hard thing. We will do the easy thing, the easy thing, and then we wait until the end of the day do the hard thing, and many times at the end of the day we just push it to tomorrow. So this is developing the discipline to decide what do I need to do each day or at a minimum each week.

32:25 You can look at your Sometimes if you have a big goal, maybe you'll work on a big goal like two days a week. But you've got to do the ruthless planning, prioritization, and you have to attack those hard tasks first thing in the morning. So you got to run at the really hard things. And when you do that first thing in the morning, you get a dopamine hit, you feel so accomplished, and you become more productive throughout the day. So instead of putting off the hard thing, it's teaching people that you wake up first thing in the morning and you go right after the hardest thing, the thing that you maybe even be dreading, the thing that you're dreading, doing or the most uncomfortable. If you start with that, it's amazing how you can start training your brain to again attack the hard things, get him going first thing in the morning, and then you're so much more productive and you start getting this momentum. You've ever heard of Brian Tracy in the business world, remember.

33:19 That name, Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Okay, So he wrote the book called Eat that Frog right, and his whole book was he said, Mark Twain at this this, this this phrase, like, if you eat a frog first in the morning, there's nothing harder that you're going to do, and your day is going to go great. So he's the one who I think sold, you know, thirty eight million copies of that book. But the whole concept was ruthless planning, prioritization, and focus. If you really care about the goal, you need to get after it first thing each day. And it's really hard in the beginning, but you develop that habit of doing that, and then you crave that dopamine hit. You want to get that hardest thing done well. And you know you talked about originally, you know, the call sure easy. How many times do you see people trying to jump those rungs. In other words, go for wrung number two to run number five and not worry about three four.

34:10 And what happens when they do that, well, you know, I mean sometimes good things can happen and maybe they have to skip a step, but you know it, you know so many things, and maybe I'm gonna get a little too deeper philosophical here is you know, getting up to the top of the ladder. That is a great goal, and you do want to achieve the goal, but really the thing that we're really striving for is not just achieving the goal at the top and getting to the top. It's it's who we're becoming on the journey, the transformation that we're experiencing, right because guess what what happens when you get to the top ring, You know, when you achieve.

34:52 If you're always waiting to be happy when you get to the goal accomplishment, then it's not going to last very long, right, Like we'll be happy for a day or but then it's like what is the next thing? So like it's getting it's learning how to love the journey of taking brave action and when you develop these have it it's something that serves you and it's like you're growing and you're developing along the way. So it's really what I love about the science of bravery is when people start putting this into practice and you ask them, like what impact has it had, they don't really talk about achieving the goal. They're like, it's the person that I've become. And that's yeah, yeah, I love that. In fact, I talk about that a lot because it's like, you know, you look at your behavior and it's merely a reflection of who you are. And so when people are trying to change outcomes in their lives, it's not a matter of doing this, doing this, doing this. It's becoming and as you say, going up the steps of the ladder, it's a transformation that's taking place within yourself. And I love that that you talked about that.

35:59 Yeah, yeah, it's really helping people move from like I'm a victim of life and life it just happens to me, and teaching them that you can be the hero, right. I mean, it's really taking people almost through a hero's journey, like you can take the wheel and steer your life. And when you do, it's hard and there's going to be some bumps along the road. But it is absolutely exhilarating when you realize you have that power you have you are so much more powerful than you you even can imagine. And when you just start kind of unlocking a little bit of bravery, Like it's kind of like this fly. Well, you learn about this brave mindset and then you start learning about how to take brave action, and then we'll get to brave relationships. And when you do, it really becomes this upward spiral and it's it's exhilarating and people don't have to be stuck in this rut.

36:51 Oh yeah, and let's talk about the let's talk about the third pillar, the brave relationships. Yeah, so brave relationships is about trying to curate the right brave tribe. I call it the brave tribe that will support your journey. So I say curate very very intentionally, like, if you want to accomplish this goal or grow in this way, who are the people that you want to surround yourself with that are going to support your journey, that can help you when you slip a step, that are going to that are going to be there to support you to make sure that you get up that ladder right. And the reason why it's so important to curate those people is sometimes they're not the people that we're around right now. So let's say you want to and we can use a simple example, right, you know, Let's say I want to I want to climb a mountain.

37:52 What's the mountain that I want to climb? I might have people around me that would that I hang out with regularly, and they're like, why on earth would you want to climb That is the stupidest thing ever, that sounds dangerous. Shouldn't do that. So sometimes the people that you're around, what they're going to tell you is to probably stay small, and it's because they care about you and they don't want you to take risks. So curating a brave tribe would be finding who are other people that have climbed this mountain and let me go and meet them and let me ask them for advice. So being brave is and I'm being vulnerable and saying, hey, I don't know how to do this, even at work, right, Hey, I've never led a project like this before. You led a couple projects very similar to this sometime, can you share some of your wisdom advice? Can you show me how to do it right. So, so surrounding yourself with the people that have the wisdom or the knowledge that can support you on that journey. And if you're going up that ladder, there's times that you're going to slip, that you're going to be uncomfortable, you may be ready to quit. You need to have the people that you can call that are going to help you keep going, that are going to call forth your best right. So the reason why I use the word brave around that is, first of all, you got to get outside of your little bubble and maybe go and seek out other people and approach them and ask them for their help. That takes bravery, right. And then whenever you when you do stumble and fall, many people think, oh, to be brave,

39:23 you just figure it out on your own, Like, you know, I don't need any help, I'm fine, right, Actually, the braver thing to do is to admit you don't know, admit mistakes, and ask for help. So that that takes vulnerability, the ultimate bravery. So within brave relationships, it's curating the brave tribe, going outside and developing new relationships with people that will support the journey. In addition to, like you know, the relationships that you have. And then it's asking for help and support, also asking for suggestions for improvement. So even if things are going well, like who's the person you could trust, I could say doctor Doug, Like you are an expert in this and things are going pretty well, but do you have any suggestions and things I can be doing differently or better so I can get to the top of the ladder, So seeking feedback. And then the last element of brave relationships is you've got to be looking for people to help you, but also who can you extend a hand down and help up? Because you know, when you actually help others, not only are you helping them, but you actually get a bigger dopamine hit and you get more pleasure more, you get a bigger boost to your well being when you help others than even getting help. So I make sure that I teach that because we always have to pay it forward.

40:40 And many times when I have a huge audience, let's when I'm speaking in fronting in front of audiences you know across the country, even across the globe, one common thing I'll ask is I'll say, how many of you like? Admitting you might be stuck in asking for help. Raise your hand, hi, if you like doing that. Now very few hands go up because people don't feel comfortable doing that. And then I ask the next question, how many of you help or enjoy helping others that may be a little bit stuck to help them achieve their goals? How many do you like mentoring others? Everyone loves helping others, And I say, why is that? And so do you?

41:21 Guys? See the difference here? So you're hesitating to ask for help because you don't think they want to help you and it's going to make you But you like helping others. So sometimes that's a good reminder to make people feel more comfortable. Actually well, in vulnerability, it's interesting, and I think fear of play such a role in that is that you know, we're afraid to be vulnerable, but as you say, it's only when we're vulnerable that we're able to really grow and get that help. And the other thing is, you know, it's so interesting to look at who you have surrounded yourself with and really look at their lives and what they're accomplishing and realizing that, hey, you know what if that's not where I want to be. As you say, I need to curate a new group of friends, a new group of associates, a new group of relationships.

42:07 Yeah you you you are who you hang out with or you know, really thinking, who do you surround yourself with, Like I'm thinking of my stoic you know, philosophers that have influenced me in this and by the way, anything I'm teaching, or even anything that we have studied in more recent you know science, it all it's all ancient. It's all ancient wisdom. We're not doing anything new, We're just we're just talking about it in a different way. And you know, ancient wisdom is now proven with modern science. But it's all the same stuff. But yeah, you know, like so William James, you know, the really the gentleman that really started psychology. You know, he says, like, you are what you attend to, right, So you are what you attend to, what you think about what you do, so like make sure you think about that or you know, epictitis, my favorite stoic you know, says, you know, surround yourself with people that will call forth your best, that will challenge you to be your very best.

43:09 That's pretty powerful, all right, Yeah, it is, so any stories any quick stories about how you've really helped someone embrace us bravery in their lives and transform them. Yeah. I can think of just someone that is a colleague in positive psychology and they studied positive psychology because they really wanted to understand it and had dreams of being able to apply it to help others lives, but they were in a job and in the job was security, right, And you know, by taking them through this, and even though they're a fellow person that studied positive psychology to really help them go through the steps, it gave them the confidence to start stepping toward what they really want to do. And I find that a lot in careers, Like I'm in a job and I really don't like it, but I just get paid and I'm just kind of in this rut, you know. So in the case that I'm talking about, you know, this person started taking steps and then ended up making a transition, and now this person is doing the work that they feel called to do, and they're just like, if I wouldn't have taken this risk, if I wouldn't have taken this risk and moved in that direction, I just I don't know where I would be.

44:29 So that's kind of the one thing I want to make sure that your your audience, you know, keeps in mind is what is it that you really want? What's the impact that you want to make in the world, you know, and what are you doing now? And is there a gap between where you are now and what you really want to do and what is holding you back? And if fear's one of those things, I just have good news for anyone. Anyone can be brave. It's not a trait that you're born with. It's not a trait that you're born with. Anyone can build the capacity to be brave, to take those courageous, courageous acts and it just and it's doing the work, you know, day in and day out. So that's that's the good news. And then there's your message. Ask for it. So as we close, how how do people find you and how what is your desire in accomplishing and helping people that may get in contact with you.

45:26 Well, the easiest way is people can just go to my website, which is Jill Shulman dot com. So first name is pretty easy to spell. J I l L. Last name is s C h U L M A N dot com. And if you go to my website. You can sign up for my newsletter. You can also take a Bravery self assessment. It's gonna really measure how strong is your bravery in this three dimensions and then it will give you some practical tips and what you can do with it. So I give that away for free so that everyone can kind of get that a idea of where they are and build it. And then I'm all over social media, so I've got YouTube channel and Instagram and TikTok and you know Facebook. So I would just encourage your people to follow me because I'm going to be always giving you little tips and little reminders that will will hopefully help propel you forward to take brave action or to be brave in your life.

46:24 Love it and I love it. Hey, thank you so much, Jill. That's it has been fantastic, And I think the most fantastic things. The very last thing you said is they're there to help people. You're there to make a difference with people. And I'm not hearing you talk about it. They can sign up for this procedure or that and so forth. You're just there to help. And that is that really is my mission is to is I want people to realize that they have the ability to be brave. They have an ability to take control of their life, and it's scary, but when they take stuff for that way, it absolutely is a game changer in terms of their level of success. But what's most important is their happiness and well being. At the end of life, we look back and I want to help people avoid the pain of regret. I always wanted to, but I never did, right, So that's my motivation.

47:21 Right Well, thanks so much, and folks, thanks for listening. I guarantee you, I know you enjoyed this one. I hope you'll join us again soon. This is doctor Doug saying no mistay